Sharon, I am 4/5 North Idaho and plant way too close within a few feet, smaller ones 18 inches I'm embarrassed to confess. David Austin says you can group roses, I use that as my excuse for now. My poor frozen roses do stay considerably small, and I prune severely to weed between them without getting clawed. They seem to do ok, not huge and glorious like in most of the forum's photos, but I'm grateful for a few blooms and green leaves.

I try to envision what I can't see underground , thinking in terms of healthy root spacing.

Enlarging the garden space across the yard will help my plants next year to spread out the way they should optimally be. I found the sod is really easy to dig up right after the snow melts.

Shading out each other is the real issue. The roses that receive more sunlight on the end definitely benefit , are healthier, and bloom more.

I plant close too in most spots, unless I know the rose will get big here. Usually a couple of feet apart- I wear a size 10 shoe, so 2 "feet" in between is about as close as I go lol.

3 feet, unless you know it is a cold hardy rose that gets big despite the cold.

Sharon, I plant at around 3ft also, Last year I did some at 15 to 20 inches but regretted it. Several reasons why I'm sticking to 3 feet thou for most 4ft would be better. All of mine are very disease resistant but will get anthracnose. We have a lot of night time dew here then if you add a few cool night temps. It adds up to instant anthracnose spots. So the more air the better.

At three feet there is no room between my roses. Even Cream Veranda at 31/2 ft tall was four feet across. So planted at 3ft centers they grow into each other by at least a foot. When I first planted Pomponella at 41/2 ft centers I thought there was to much room between them. At the end of year 3 there was not an ounce of space between them. Each bush went at least 6ft up and out and all the laterals filled in the rest. So each bush was 12ft across in every direction. Last year I planted my new Maxi Vitas each 3ft apart. That was a dumb thing to do as I know darn well they get 5ft across. Even HTs like Fiji that I placed 30 inches apart are all ready touching and one is 3 years the other is 2. My opinion only is that in the end you might not want them any closer than 30 inches.

Then nutrients begin to come into play a few years down the road. It is a lot easier for me to keep them amply feed and watered when they have more space to themselves. Oh well thats my thought on it anyway.

Thanks Patty. My roses are all still so tiny. The only ones that have reached their expected size are Kordes Innocencia. Maybe I need to be more patient.

Sharon

Yes patients grasshopper, they will grow.

:-)

Good thing that other folks chimed in with the voice of reason since my method of rose spacing is a little wacky. Shrubs and roses that I know will be cane hardy and bush out well get the kind of 3' spacing everyone else is talking about. With all of the HTs and floris and other fussy-pants roses, if I can fit a shovel comfortably between two roses I consider that there's room for another rose.

I totally agree with berrypie that if Austins can look better and fuller packed several in the same space, so can my other roses, it's just that they're different roses packed together. Practically speaking, there's probably around 18" between most of my HT roses base to base, but any canes that bush out are likely to intermingle. In this cold climate, even that much spacing leaves me room to step between most of the roses in my fussy areas where they're barely above knee high at best and two-cane wonders at best.

i can get away with this tighter spacing because I have: a) a relatively dry climate, b) a high tolerance for blackspot, c) a lazy approach that almost never moves roses once planted, d) an insatiable collector's view on roses, and e) harsh winters that make all those HTs regrow from the ground every year so they never get that big. There's almost always room to squeeze one more rose in, and at the rate they fail to overwinter at least in the HT/flori areas, I'm still not that close to running out of space.

I don't claim this is a remotely sensible way to plant roses, but in a cold climate I can get away with it since even established roses won't get to the height they should be if the canes die each year from winter kill. So cover your ears and go "la la la" if you don't want rose chaos in your yard, since that's the ultimate effect I'm more or less deliberately.

Cynthia

Thanks all for answering.

Guy- sadly not many 3 foot roses here. Maybe height wise but not width. My largest rose is a Buck 'Folksinger' that is about 4 feet tall by 3 feet wide. And it's probably 12 years old. Easy Elegance 'My Girl' is not quite 3x3 and is my second largest. 'Lady Ashe' climbing rose is getting big as is Kordes 'Honeymoon' but the rest are pretty small. Almost all of my roses are own root which I've read from others seem to stay smaller than their grafted counterparts.

Patty- I have roses that are as mature as yours but nowhere near the size of yours. My 'Fiji' is probably 15 inches tall and 10 inches wide and had a lot of winter dieback. My biggest roses so far are 'Caramella FT' an ancient Buck 'Folksinger' 'Honeymoon' is getting big and 'Fire Opal' is nice sized. Everything else is pretty small, even those going on their third year. It seems winter hangs around here longer than it does for other z5 gardeners (and we're technically listed as z6) I see pics of roses with irises. I never have roses blooming with irises. I see pics from other z5 gardeners where their rose is blooming yet mine is still in tiny green buds. Growing conditions so much, even when in the same temperature zones.

Berrypie-Mine don't get very big either. I don't have as much sun as recommended although I do get the 5 1/2 hours in most spots that DA recommends. Most of the Kordes are stated they don't require "full" sun so they do flower okay but not as well as other posters here. I'm like you, grateful for the handful of blooms and the green leaves and just surviving over the winter.

Dingo- I love your built in tape measure. I'm just under five feet tall so my husband uses me as a measuring stick too! Very small feet though ;-)

Cynthia- thanks so much for the advice and the which song I should be singing ;-) -Although I'm not sure how I can shovel with my ears covered, haven't quite worked that one out in my brain yet ;-).

I get a lot of dieback over winter too and most of my roses never get anywhere near their projected height/width. I have my DA's planted close so I agree too, why would other roses be any different? DA's are just roses, albeit very beautiful roses, but don't possess any magical properties that other roses don't have. As long as they're of similar growth habit and the colors look nice together why not plant similar to DA's recommendations? And DA's are far more disease prone than the Kordes roses I have. Your roses are so stunning, it's hard for me to believe most are two cane wonders.

I read in Peter Schneider's book 'Right Rose Right Place' that he also spaces roses close together. HT's are 20 inches apart and Floribundas 12 inches! Most of my roses are FL or modern shrub except for the handful of Kordes that are listed as HT.

So I guess we all just use our best judgement for what works best in our growing conditions and keep our fingers crossed that they survive the winter. And maybe the grafted roses from Palatine will have the "oomph" they need to grow a bit more.

Sharon

Sharon, having visited P. Schneider's open house this June, I can say his spacing is perfect for his roses. Perhaps I'll pull myself together and write my little comments on that visit as I learned so much that afternoon. I've done mine 3', but am in a Z6b pocket which makes a world of difference, especially as I zone up my choices. This year I got some rated for Z6, so it will be interesting to see how they fare this winter vs. those rated for Z4/5.

Thanks vaporvac- How fun that must have been. My roses are mostly z5 so that's probably why they stay small. That and the fact that they get the minimal sun requirements at 5 1/2 hours I'm sure is keeping them small. They're not leggy though, just short.

I saved Cynthia's list of the roses that do best for her in more shady conditions. She's z5 so her roses should be hardy here. Hopefully those will perform better. Most of the Kordes do well with some exceptions. Pink Enchantment, Summer Sun, Golden Gate, Moonlight and Fiji are struggling and they are some of my older plants. They might be too iffy here. I don't winter protect but we don't get the snow that we used to nor the early freezes that would help. My aunt passed away in late January and they were able to dig her grave. No snow cover and no frozen ground yet. My friend passed away in late Feb, same thing. It was so warm we were in just spring jackets. Some of the larger ponds and lakes most winters don't freeze safely for skating anymore unlike when I was a kid but then we'll have a really cold or snowy winter with typical z5 temps even though USDA agricultural maps states as z6 so the even borderline z5b roses die. It sure is an ongoing experiment!

Sharon

Cynthia- how do you decide which roses to plant together? Do you go by the estimated mature size and hope for the best? Thanks.

Sharon

Vaporvac, it's so nice to hear that an expert like Peter Schneider agrees that spacing roses close together in a cold climate is just fine. I'd agree with his spacing except I'd put most HTs at the 12" and floris at the 18-20". My floris tend to bush out a lot better than my HTs - even when my HTs get tall they are often narrow bloomers.

Sharon, sympathies on the passing of your friend and aunt. That's interesting that the ground was still not frozen in January and February. Perhaps they had a protected spot for digging. I've had bulbs arrive backordered in December and I can't possibly get a trowel in the ground by then. November the roses are usually still blooming though they're starting to wind down. For your rose protection, it sounds like you might benefit from some kind of wind break if you don't get reliable snow cover. I find that a lot of my rose canes die back to the level of the snow and/or windbreak, so I suspect that it helps the iffier ones. I just roll filled leaf bags around the borders of my beds and stand them around the truly fussy ones, and they're otherwise on their own.

As for how I decide which roses to plant together, I start out thinking I'm more systematic than I end up being in reality. My first decision is a color one, related to what bed a rose will end up in. Between the time I order and the time the rose arrives, I spend time researching on hmf and here about the rose's characteristics across the board in zones like mine. I put down an expected height and use that in my plantings. Sometimes that is wildly misleading, like with Sunrise Sunset that's listed at 2' and it's one of my most vigorous and aggressive climbers. When I get down to planting a given area of a bed, I set all the roses I'm planning to add to that bed, look at the characteristics of the roses already there, set the roses around in their pots, hmmm a while, move around those pots, and give it my best effort to anticipate height, color and vigor. I've learned the types of roses that aren't very vigorous and when to ignore the California expectations of 5-6' for HTs. Sometimes roses at the front of beds are much bigger than I expect, so I peg their canes or drape them along a handy surface (like a low fence at the front of a bed), or tuck their canes under other nearby roses, or plop in a shepherd's hook for them to scramble up if needed.

Frankly, I wish I would have more frequent problems of roses being too big. Mostly when I plant HTs and floris, they're much more often smaller than I expect. That's another reason I can get away with planting roses as close as I do. Given all that research, I find that roses can't read and they do unexpected things nearly half of the time (some of which includes dying). I can only control so much, so I give it my best shot and live with the results. If I can't live with it, I move it, but I think in my rose growing career I've moved a grand total of no more than 10 roses, a few of which were unsuccessful, so it's much easier to be lazy and work around a less than optimal height.

Bottom line is that I don't fuss over my roses which includes not worrying too much about their height or color, as well as not fussing with sprays and such. A little mystery isn't a bad thing and sometimes it's a happy "mistake".

Cynthia

Cynthia- Thanks for the detailed explanation of your methods. I copied it to my Cynthia Rose Advice folder :-)

I hope I have many "happy mistakes" too since your happy mistakes make such a charming rose garden!

Sharon

Here's what spacing of 40" center to center looks like with roses that are 4ftx4ft...

I like room to deadhead easily because we have a fence directly behind our roses...Even though late season the space closes...lol

Moses- thanks for the input. My roses tend to stay very small. They're still a bit young but almost all of them are no more than 2 feet across and at the most 3 feet tall.

Jim- your roses are gorgeous. Mine have never gotten this large. Even the Knockouts don't get this big for me.

Sharon

Sharon..I planted Earth Song and Quietness abut 2 feet apart about 10 years ago. They were little own root roses. Now they get 5 feet tall and abt 3-4 ft wide by Fall without much winter dieback at all. They are too close to each other but I never thought that for the first few years after they were planted. My Pomponella Fairy Tale has little dieback as well and it's a monster! I had to remove the plants I had next to it. Sometimes the winter cane hardiness of some of these plants can really surprise me!

Thanks, Mary, for the encouragement. Do you remember how long it took for them to reach their projected size? I have read three years for own root to catch up but my 3 y.o are still small. It must depend on how long the growing season is. I'm z5b so a bit warmer than you. I have an older Buck 'Folksinger' that gets to her stated height and width and has for several years now. It seems it takes a while for the rose to establish a hefty root system. Especially with our shorter summers. I guess I have to be a patient grasshopper as Patty advised :-)

Sharon

Jim's photo is the spacing look that I go for. I like the way the rose look when they are like that and it gives me room to work around them.

Sharon all of mine are own root and they look like Jims have no fear they will grow. None of my new roses are more than four years old. I finish this in a minute gotta run.