It's good that your Father is on board, but they will both need to be ready to make a change. Also, you say your siblings are divided. In what way? Do you live close to your parents? Can you help them make a move, if needed. There are many options to choose from, from assisted living to senior only housing, to maybe even moving in with one of their children. But both must be agreeable. Otherwise it's a no-win situation.

That's what I was thinking. I think it is something for my parents to work out between them. Unfortunately they don't have a very good relationship so it is difficult for them to discuss most topics. I don't live in the same province. I do go there to help out after surgeries and such so for sure I can go to help move and bring my oldest son too.

While I agree that consensus would be nice, sometimes it just isn't practical. Since your mother is less able to take care of the daily tasks, she must take a back seat to your dad's needs and wants. If your dad is ready to move on, perhaps you should schedule a multi-day visit with them. Hopefully you/they could have pre-arranged some visits to various living facilities that hold interest. If you can all go see the facility together, it may ease some of your mother's resistance. Most important, make absolutely sure the status quo is not allowed to just drag on. Would your mother be able to stay in the house if something happened/incapacitated your dad? The worst case would be having to arrange for housing changes while there was other trauma/drama in their life. Finally--your father deserves the right to live his final years as he wishes.

If you and your siblings are divided, and your parents' relationship doesn't allow for reasonable discussions, nothing can happen. Both roadblocks need to be cleared before anything can be done. Unless you want to create very divisive confrontations after which all relationships will be frayed.

A huge problem is that my mother has been allowed total control in our family dynamic (well, until we left) but my dad still lives under the same conditions. A huge help would be if she got a knee replacement because as it stands she is almost crippled by it. She cancelled her surgery (which was supposed to happen this week) and it is rescheduled for November (which I think she will cancel again). I think these actions should take away some of her input in the situation? But then, I just want my dad to stand up for himself and take control of the situation? I wish they could just talk and reason it out. Or that my mother would just listen to reason sometimes. She is all caught up in lawyer/real estate fees and won't look past that.

"Finally--your father deserves the right to live his final years as he wishes." I think so too.

I have insurmountable parent issues myself, and the themes are the same--declining ability to care for self, coupled with stubborn, irrational refusal to consider future inevitabilities, and also refusal to consider or acknowledge how the declining abilities are inconveniencing everyone who cares. I am hearing this is common! And I have been advised to allow the elderly stubborn person to hit the wall, rather than kill myself doing every last thing to ensure great quality of life, because of love....the constant hospital stays due to refusal to listen to doctors and simple common sense is overwhelming...and difficult for my dh and children....

I'll be interested to hear what others advise you to do. My closest advisors, let's call them, would say to back off as much as possible, and let the parents muddle on as dysfunctionally as they always have. What's important here? Preservation of relationships?, or good common sense?, when mental abilities have declined to that degree where common sense is gone, but that person would not yet be declared legally insufficient to make their own decisions.

My parents (76 and 72) just downsized from a 5BR house they'd been in for 40 years to a condo, and it was a big job, both physically and mentally! They are both in reasonably good health (especially my mom, she is a machine!), so it wasn't a matter of necessity yet, and my mother was definitely reluctant to give up her house. However, it was becoming clear to her that my dad was not going to be able to keep up with the outdoor/heavier chores much longer, so it was a question of either paying someone else or downsizing.

I think one of the things that finally got her over the mental hurdle of moving was grandchildren. Both of my siblings live in Chicago (a 5-hour drive from their previous home) and have little ones, so the lure of spending a lot more time with them was really key. Do you or any of your siblings have kids? Do you live near each other or are you spread out? Relocating to be near one (or more) of you and the grands might be more appealing to your mother than just moving from her home into a smaller place. Will they need to choose an assisted living facility, or would an apartment or retirement community work for them?

Anyway, as far as the decluttering goes - that is a huge task. My mother kind of managed it in stages over the course of about a year. Once they decided to move and had a good idea of how much space they would have (they knew they wanted a 2BR/2BA condo), she earmarked the items she thought would need to furnish the new home, then had us kids look at what was left. She further refined this list once they actually found a place. Fortunately, their move coincided with both me and my brother buying larger homes, so we were able to absorb some of their stuff. Then she held an epic garage sale, and finally donated a lot of stuff to Habitat for Humanity and Goodwill. Even so, they took too much with them, and she has donated a bunch of items in the new place as well. It sounds as though this might be a first step that your dad could manage, and perhaps getting the process started would help your mom get more comfortable with the idea of leaving her home.

Now that my parents are fully moved in, they are SO happy they moved when they still had the physical capacity to do things on their own (obviously they had movers for the heavy stuff, but they did their own packing, etc.). They are thrilled with the ease of condo living and love having a super for indoor issues and not having to worry about shoveling snow and mowing the lawn. They are in a fully independent condo complex with residents of all ages, but I can tell that this step will make an eventual move to assisted living (if required) much easier for them to accept.

Well, good luck to you Mrs.S. Both of my parents aren't showing any signs of brain health problems (whew).

RE: Preservation of relationships:

LOL, I just called my sister as she was angry with me. My last day I was visiting (this summer) I was hanging out with her kids, my other sister, and mother. My son and dad were outside. Well, she was gone for an hour and I finally went to look for her and she was trying to make my mother's bedroom work better and she decluttered it a bit. My mom was angry and upset over this.

My sister was angry at me for not doing it and was a little harsh about it. I was frustrated because I don't agree with going through my mom's room and plus my sister didn't ask me to do this (I don't think I would have even if asked though). Anyway, in the end I don't think my mother's stubbornness should ruin our relationship. So we should really be careful of that.

Just saw your post about the knee replacement - my dad has had both of his done. If he hadn't, he would be completely unable to walk at this point. He had one done in his mid-60s and the other done in his mid-70s, though, and says that if he could go back and do both in his mid-60s, he would. Your mother isn't doing herself any favors by waiting (which I'm sure you know), but perhaps sharing some anecdotal evidence with her will help get her over the hump!

I hear you...

My parents don't want to admit age either. We're all stubborn in my family and excruciatingly dysfunctional.

My best advice would be to suggest a storage facility that your sister, also, has the key to.

The stuff you know they'll never look at again can be "reallocated" after the fact.

But no, you can't do this from a distance. I really feel for you here....

I am in the same boat, plus a lot of years. I am 70 and my mother just turned 100. She still lives in her very large house. She should have moved decades ago, but would not hear of it. Although it appears to be stubbornness, I think it is really a fear of letting go of the familiar. Unfortunately, that clinging to the past only gets worse as times passes. Let them decide for themselves, but don't be running there all the time to take care of stuff. Sooner or later, I hope, they will see for themselves that it is time to go. In my mom's case, I just do not have the heart to force her to move. At this point she would have to go into some sort of care situation. She would be beyond miserable and I would suffer from guilt.

My son is dealing with disposing of generations of family memorabilia that their late father never dealt with. It is a nightmare. Here I am trying to purge my own things, and all this stuff is coming back in since my son has no space where he lives. Why oh why am I making room for my former in-laws old junk? Some has value, some is very interesting but most just needs to go.

Anyway, I do hope your parents move elsewhere and the downsizing can be a gradual process rather than a huge project all at once. You have my commiserations.

I like Anglo's comments.

Anglophilla, you sound like you are in a very fortunate position. I am having a hard time because my dad is the "paid help" and could probably use a break. I will have to talk to my dad, I guess, to maybe relay his issues and what he is finding hard to my mom. I'm sure that is all we can do right now. Maybe suggest outside paid help come in at this point?

I agree that her possessions are off limits but I don't mind trying to encourage her to get rid of some stuff. Maybe some camping equipment to start, where she has items she no longer has a use for. In the end, it is her decision.

My parents don't need assisted living but I think less stairs will help a lot.

After many years of my Mom refusing to move, my Dad finally moved without her. It wasn't long before she joined him. My Dad just got to the point he had to make a change. We stayed out of it. It was the best thing my Dad did. They were both much happier.

Can the laundry be moved to an area on the main floor!

Anglo says "it's just what one does" regarding cleaning out basements and homes of family who have passed away. Maybe, maybe not. Some children don't have the time nor the inclination to spend months cleaning out their parent's belongings. What happens in a lot in those situations is that everything that is left goes in a dumpster or to goodwill. Her post could have been written by my recently dear departed Mother. My Mom was pretty debilitated the last months of her life, which allowed me to do a lot of de-cluttering. She was a pack rat, but did not live in squalor. She slept on a hospital bed downstairs, and to my immense surprise she toddled upstairs one day when I was in the process of cleaning the master bedroom. I had piles of old newspaper clippings (recipes and such) ready to throw away, and she was furious with me! She hadn't been able to cook or bake for months, and some recipes were from the 1990's, but that didn't matter to her.

As to the knee replacement, I agree that she will feel so much better and should be highly encouraged to go through with the operation. Living without pain will make her life so much easier.

We dealt with this with one of my in-laws and gave up. Stubbornness and irrationality can come along with advanced years too, not just medical conditions and other issues like dementia, etc. They had an increasingly miserable and compromised existence but refused to consider any idea that wasn't their own. I convinced my wife that that decision meant we WEREN'T going to jump every time they encountered what would otherwise have been an avoidable problem. They preferred the problems and that's what they lived with, within reason.

Clutter? Hoarding? No excuse for that at any age. You want the mess, it's yours we had to say. It'll all be cleaned out by strangers using shovels and dumpsters.

There's only so much anyone can do to try to help someone who doesn't want to be helped.

Agree with sleeperblues.

I'm constantly purging with that fear in mind....that my kids will have to be responsible for my crap...and I'm only in my 50's.

Plus one on the knee replacement. Mom had it done in her 70's and she can't believe she waited as long as she did to get it done..

I think elmer is closest to my advice. Having been through this more than once (not my parents, but grandparents and husband's parents), wait until you have to do something. No point in pushing the topic because it's their life to live until they can no longer. Stubborn parents aren't going to let you do what you want to do. Probably ok to leave it until it makes it known to your mom that anything is a problem.

If Mom is a tightwad, would she be motivated by having to pay for everything Dad currently does? I don't understand why it's her way or the highway -- and I'm loving Kitch4me's story about Dad moving on! If you children are helping out *because* the house is inappropriate, just stop.

There are problems with the popular hard sell for Aging In Place. If you can afford to pay to maintain your current home, and it is appropriate for your health and safety for the immediate future, fine. If not, why not plan a better future?

I see reverse mortgages being hawked on this premise. Yesterday isn't today. Take pictures and take them and your memories to a simpler life. Change is NOT bad, and it IS inevitable. Why would anyone wring his or her hands and wait for *default* change.

The knee situation is something I really wish she would address. She is waiting for the miracle fix but when you are bone on bone there isn't much you can do. She also has back problems which I know is from the knee. Getting her to agree to the surgery is as easy as getting her to get rid of anything. I think it would be a life choice that she would have no regrets with. She almost passed on an angioplasty stent out of fear and distrust and when she finally did it - instant relief.

I have resolved myself to just letting it be and let them make their choices but I get back in when we (siblings) speak about the situation and the worries start up again. I guess there is no real clear solution at this point in time. Maybe I;ll tell my siblings - "Let's just let them make their own choices until they really need us."

Thanks for all the input.

The only advice I have is forget your father's good health and your mother's bad health. Since your dad is willing to move, the angle I would take is to try to reach your mother's good senses by saying Mom, I know you love this place but Dad is getting up there in years and if something ever happened to him, it would be dreadful for you. Maybe you shouldn't wait until the last minute, but think about getting situated in an extended care facility now where you would not only have a great social life, but the reassurance that someone is on call 24 - 7 to take care of your every needs. It's just a suggestion, Mom because I hear from my friends that their parents have done this and are so happy they did...............this coming from an 80 year old whose DH is 81 and still living in a big house. I know I should think of moving and I'm really not afraid to. I just happen to love it here, but I do have to start decluttering! Actually, I think my kids would be little upset if I said we were moving............they think we're going to live forever. Short of my little suggestion, there is really nothing you can do.

blondanomia pointed out a good thing, if the parents are going TO something appealing, something positive, (for example closer to grandkids) then it can be a much easier transition. There's a big difference between a positive move to something they want, than just shrinking their lives because family thinks it is time.

Shortly after my dad passed away, mother said, "Let's go, I want to drive to every 'rest home' (her words) in the county."

By the end of the day, she had signed the papers for a wonderful assisted living facility.

Boy, were my brothers ever thrilled, thinking that I had worked some sort of magic on a visit back home, lol.

"Shortly after my dad passed away, mother said, "Let's go, I want to drive to every 'rest home' (her words) in the county.""

Aww. This would be my MIL too.

My siblings and I brought my dad to Norway House this summer, where he grew up. We just knew he would return in a heartbeat to live out his life if he could. My cousins are there and even a few old acquaintances were around. It is such a beautiful place.

What Anglo said, 100%. I work as an advocate for the elderly and disabled. I have to remind adult children that they are dealing with grown up's (their parents) and they are "allowed" to make their own choices. When they have cognitive defects, that is a very different thing, but most don't. And I'm sorry, but when I'm 75 I definitely don't want anyone telling me what to do. You can make it clear that you will not clean up the mess from their poor choices. Their marriage dynamic is not something you can fix - they've been that way with each other since before you were born.

I really feel for you and I know, as a child, that it's a really difficult position to be in.

Cooper, it sounds like you have a consistent approach and apply consistent preconceptions to what must be very different circumstances from case to case. That's puzzling to me.

I'm still in my mid-60s but I welcome observations and suggestions from my kids. I doubt I know anyone who's so on top of things that they can't use advice from others and who knows people who are parents better than their kids?

Cookie, stay out of your parent's marriage. It's the pattern they have chosen to follow all these years, even if it's not a good one.

Your family dynamic describes what my daughter used to say about Mother's Day and Father's Day brunches at the restaurant where she worked in NYC. First of all, NO ONE really wanted to be there - the customers, nor the staff! Then there was the family dynamics and dysfunction. The father would order something and his wife would immediately say, "Harry, you know the doctor says you aren't to have that!" A child would pipe up and say, "Mom, leave Dad alone! It's his choice what he wants to have on Father's Day" and then the fireworks would begin. She said she learned to NEVER ask if they'd like dessert as the answer would have been resounding "NO!" as they all wanted to get out of there as quickly as possible!

It's their marriage and it's their business to communicate or not. You should NOT become a "mediator"! Look up Transactional Analysis from the 70's and read about "getting on the triangle" <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle>;

This is exactly what you and your siblings are doing - trying to be the "rescuer" for your father. It never works - you quickly become the "persecutor".

My siblings freak about the stuff my parents have. I say they can do what they want and we can deal with it when they die. And if we don't want to deal with it we can hire somebody through the estate at that point. I have told my own child not to keep anything of mine unless she truly wants it, but not out of some kind of dedication or obligation to me.

Things are just things. If she wants something because it is a good memory for her or because she has always liked it then fine. To be saddled with a snow globe collection simply because it was mine is not fair. Keep it, sell it, give it away, toss it.

Now mind you, I don't own anything that has any real retail value LOLOL!

Dances.

I realize this comment is a bit off topic, but the conversation has touched upon this issue of having parents clean out their houses themselves before they check out of this mortal coil. I am a bit mystified by this new requirement we are placing on our parents.

I come from a family that keep their houses and possessions in fairly meticulous order, so that may color my thinking. However, even if my parents did live in more cluttered houses, I cannot understand the need to torture people over their possessions. Are we asking our elderly to clean out their houses so they can quietly dig their own graves? If you come from a family where people are untidy and collect too much stuff, so be it. You can offer to help clean up and if the offer is refused, then you cope with the issue once the time comes.

Did your parents ask you to clean up after your diapers and projectile vomiting? Did your parents refuse to launder your clothes or help you move from place to place as you grew older and went away to school and got your first jobs? Were you left to fend for yourself (my husband was, so I know it happens), but it is relatively rare.

What I think happens is that our parents refuse to live as we wish. They refuse to accept our dearly held beliefs about the value of stuff and perhaps more importantly the value of our time, and so we become self-righteous and demand that they divest themselves of things that hold meaning for them and rob them of the last vestiges of control they have over their lives as their health fails. I think that is a terrible way to treat our families.

Now, with respect to the actual question at hand, Cookie, I don't think you can help your parents out of this situation. They have built their lives this way and you can only help pick up the pieces once they fall- you cannot help keep the pieces from falling prematurely. Advocate for your father to get some help and have rest and relaxation. He should not suffer more for your mother's choices.

We shouldn't leave ANY sort of mess for future generations to deal with. And I'm talking financial, environmental, personal, etc.

That's purely selfish.

Rita, I like your perspective. My parents had me vex to Florida, so greatly downsized. My dad passed away first, my mfriend m had to move to assisted living, so things were handled gradually.

Currently, I am wondering what I will do. We live in a small home, but we still have lots of stuff! Every so often I try to give things away, but haven't really made much of a dent.

Other than jewelry and photos, I don't think either daughter would want any of my furniture or clothing. Maybe my collectibles? But, they might not hav meant no for them; Christmas tree ornaments? Maybe.

Rita, you perhaps would look at this question differently if your parents or other family members of their generation were pack rats. People fall into habits and then sometimes those habits get carried away. Kind but firm reminders/suggestions, or stronger actions may be needed for the oldsters to understand that their clutter and accumulations of unneeded junk may be unsafe and unhealthy for their living environments. Cleanup efforts during their lifetimes improve their own quarters. It often has nothing to do with "please clean up your own mess" as you suggest.

My wife's parent had two rooms that couldn't be accessed because of piles of junk and boxes. When asked, it was "there's good stuff in there I may need some day". To the comment "Like what, do you know what all this stuff is?", the honest answer was "I guess not". The rooms were emptied and the contents discarded but there's still a lot left to do in the garage, cupboards, and elsewhere. The garbage would still be there but for speaking up.

One thought on the pack rat generation... I saw that in my grandparents generation. It's from living through the depression and doing without. It's probably too ingrained to get of their system now.

Hmm, I wonder about that, rob. Whether the incidence of hoarding is higher for people who went through hard times (whether the Depression or otherwise). Maybe so but if so, that leaves less of an excuse for those born during WW2, Boomers like me and younger generations and there are plenty of hoarders in these age brackets.

My own grandparents (as adults) and their kids (my parents and their siblings) lived through the 1930s and while not affluent, none developed a junk accumulation problem. But it could be for some.

Even if you're not dealing with hoarders, stuff has a tendency to accumulate, especially if you've been in a house for a long time. My mother is a neat freak and neither of my parents really care for "stuff," but they had lived in their previous home for 40 years. Once we kids moved out, there was plenty of room, so things had a tendency to get stored rather than tossed. For instance, my father amassed a large library of textbooks and reference books over the course of his career - they were well-organized and there was plenty of space for them, but they were not useful to anyone but him (and since he has now been retired for 15 years, they're mostly out of date and not useful to anyone in his profession, either). He wasn't hoarding them, but he never really felt the need to get rid of them until they started talking about moving.

If I were the OP, I would tread lightly, of course, but I would definitely encourage Dad to bring up the idea of moving more in conversations with Mom and also start weeding out his own things. If Mom sees Dad doing this (and not complaining about it too much!), it may help her feel a little more comfortable doing the same with her things.