The Original Kilz is oil based and extremely smelly while drying, as it is loaded with toluene for fast drying, but is affective at odor control. Kilz Max is a water based epoxy based primer and claims to kill odors, as acrylic based primers won't ( Kilz 2 ). By far best for odor sealing is BIN white pigmented shellac.

If your painter was going to do two coats anyway, I am not sure how he justifies a 30% surcharge for Kilz Max, which at about $30, is about the same cost as a decent paint. The major charge of any painting bid is LABOR, not the paint itself. It is no more labor intensive to roll primer as to roll paint.

The biggest odor offenders are actually going to be all the soft surfaces in the house,: curtains, carpets. etc. If you are replacing the carpets, consider rolling a coat of oil base Original Kilz primer on the underlayment, as years of smoke will also have permeated the bare wood.

And clean the glass throughout the house. The smoke film on the windows holds a lot of odor.

Air Ducts will also harbor smoke odors.

Well I assume he's still planning to do 2 coats of paint on top - that is the labor and materials cost so to do assume that it's labor not the material adding the 30% - a third coat of paint basically. Do you think I should request a different plan? Kilz Max reviews seem to say it is great for odor just not as good for water stains which is not an issue - have you not had that experience?

We are replacing windows (upgrading to dual pane low e) and having ducts cleaned. Basically all the surfaces of the house will be removed or covered by paint/flooring. There is no wood subfloor it's concrete slab - and unfortunately we may not be able to remove the old vinyl tiles )which have likely absorbed smell) if they test positive for asbestos, in that case we will be laying a floating floor over top... but it should be sealed off by the underlay and flooring- we are not using carpet anywhere.

There is no need for two finish coats on top of the primer. A common practice among painters is to have the primer tinted toward the finish coat color, rather than leaving it white. If strong colors are used, it is sometimes difficult to transition from the white to the finish color in one coat. Tinting the primer solves this problem without adding a 3rd time around.

Flooring laid on concrete will have a moisture barrier put under it. Any moisture barrier will also stop odors. If water vapor cannot pass through, either will odors.

I would second the BIN for stain sealing and odor blocking.

BUT, more important than that ... please make sure you have your fireplace inspected before using it. We could have had a chimney fire when we bought our house but luckily we didn't. Before we ever allowed to use it again, we had to re-line for a tune of $3k but that was a lot less than having our house burn down! If you are seeing this type of soot, please get a reputable chimney sweep who uses video equipment to inspect. My neighbor did not get so lucky and hers did turn into a raging fire.

I've been there with a new house owned previously by smokers. You absolutely MUST use a primer or the cigarette residue will bleed through the paint. You will have stains everywhere and, anywhere there is a little moisture, the cigarette residue will bleed through in little yellow drops. Before you prime, I highly recommend that you clean the walls. We cleaned ours first with a TSP solution and then, again, with a solution made from the powdered spic and span. We also made sure to rinse well. It's a lot of work and don't forget the ceilings! :-) Do not get TSP on your windows, glass or mirrors that you want to keep. It will etch. Don't get it on any furniture, either. I recommend BIN shellac based primer, not Kilz. You will absolutely need a respirator to work with the BIN shellac based primer. We do our own painting and have never even considered hiring a painter.

You'll want to have the air ducts cleaned, clean the tops of everything, clean the windows carefully (including the tracks), remove all drapes/blinds, clean up in any attached light fixtures, consider changing out plugs/switches, etc. Basically, you have to take everything apart and clean it (if it's possible to clean it thoroughly) or replace it (if it cannot be cleaned thoroughly). Ammonia works really well on some things (e.g. glass). You can get the smoke smell out, but it takes a bit of work.

Here's the $500 question of the day. Did your painter quote wall washing prior to primer? If not, you'll be painting over soot, nicotine, tar, etc. Those contaminants may cause the paint film to fail in a few years or sooner.

The carpet is old

The old carpet is still there? If so, that would hold a lot of odor.

nothing has been started yet. So yet carpet is still there and painting has not started. We do not plan to use the fireplace, I don't like the smoke and ash smell even from a properly functioning one. We will be cleaning it and leaving it as decor, and possibly get a gas insert if and when budget allows.

You are asking for opinions…here is mine. Don’t buy the house.

JudyG, you have no idea what tmnca has paid for the house, ANY house can be a bargain at the right price. The conditions that need to be corrected are a great bargaining chip in getting the price reduced and be able to take care of its shortcomings. In my past house purchases, I have always looked for the "diamond in the rough", that which can be, not what is. Granted, as a painting contractor/tradesman, I was in a better position than most to hancle such a home.

Just forget the Kilz max, it has to be kilz original oil or better yet Bin, nothing else is going to work, nothing

Chisopher Nelson,

Have you used the Kilz Max? Just wanting feedback, as this product claims to seal odors. I pesonally hav not used it. It is epoxy based rather than acrylic based, as are most other primers. Epoxies are much denser and moisture resistant than acrylics, hence the odor barrier too. There are several new water based formulas on the market that claim to seal odors and nicotine.

There are SOME nuggets of GOOD info in the above posts!!

One main question here (and Brush is the only one here who grasps this...) :

>>>> Does a Woman wake up in the am, and the immediately proceed to put on more makeup?!??!?! Answer......Of COURSE NOT! You know why....don't make me explain it.... ;-)

* You HAVE TO get rid of surface smoke deposits FIRST. Powdered Dirtex or TSP, followed by many rinses, gets rid of surface contamination.

* Just putting a primer over a horrendously dirty/contaminated surface, AND expecting an odor issue to just vanish.....is foolish, uneducated, & lazy.

* As some said..... get rid of any fabric stuff; carpets, curtains, etc. These can never be cleaned completely.

* Smoke RISES. Therefore, consider scraping any ceiling popcorn. If it's an older smooth ceiling.....WASH IT TOO!!!!

* The Shellac-based BIN primer is the ONLY primer to use here! I primed my family-room with this years ago. It's a strongish alcohol smell, but fades quickly. Alcohol is the carrier/solvent for a shellac resin.

>>>>> I would strongly recommend 2 coats of BIN in this case, applied on WELL-WASHED walls AND ceilings.

* Use 2 coats of finish paint please! Do you REALLY expect paint to look flawless with only ONE coat applied?! NO ONE is that good.... ;-)

Faron

No I have never used it but don't believe a word of what they claim it does. I have been in this business a long time.

Faron, as a woman, I will say that most women who wear makeup remove it before going to bed. I also wanted to mention that I don't particularly enjoy the comparison between a woman's face and a wall covered with old cigarette smoke deposits. BTW, I also suggested that the OP wash the walls before priming.

Sorry VG! It was only meant to be a casual IDEA comparison, NOT even remotely literal.

My point was simply...."you don't put fresh paint on a dirty surface". Just as a Woman wouldn't put makeup on a dirty face. Same principle/reason. That's all. No more....no less.

Faron

It's okay Faron. :-)

;-) Now.....I have to go put on my KISS makeup, & ROCK OUT for a while! ;-)

Lol, just remember to take it off before you go to bed! You don't want to ruin your complexion! ;-)

The reason a painter can say that Kilz Max is no good without using it is because after Kilz original, Kilz has tried to make other primers and even paints and they have all been crap. Also, you can't even imagine how many lies are written on a paint can, no matter who the manufacturer is. There are so many primers available that say 'stain killing' that can't kill any stains, that say 'sands easily' that can't be sanded, that say 'sticks to anything without sanding!'. Lies, lies lies! My favorite one of course is the 'primer in the can' nonsense. I'm waiting for manufacturers to put '100 dollar bill in every can! All you gotta do is fish it out!'

Judy, you have no idea about the housing market in many areas of California obviously! This house is worth our purchase price and the money we will put into it. Also houses built in the 60s or earlier almost all were smoked in or had poorly maintained fireplaces at some point - people used to smoke at work! So unless we restrict ourselves to new houses many older houses have had cigarette or wood smoke smell and have had it fixed by previous owners.

The smell here is very faint but I am *extremely* sensitive and I can smell it. It may be mostly from the carpet and fireplace I don't see any nicotine staining on the walls just soot up the fireplace wall and ceiling above. I just don't want to neglect a step and then still smell something.

A chimney sweep will be cleaning the fireplace and brick, and we will wash the walls. The painters here cost $$$ an hour to paint, I'm not paying them to wipe walls

So yes to wash walls first - TSP is actually illegal in California (ocean protection) so there are similar but not as effective products we can use, I wash planning on dawn dish soap in warm water.

i wonder if the BIN stuff being recommended here is legal in California - VOCs are highly regulated. I'm sure the painters would have suggested it if it was better and available here.

I'm in CA. You can get TSP at Ace hardware or order it online. I don't remember if they stock it at the big box stores. You're right that nothing else will be as effective. The BIN shellac based primer was still for sale at Ace and in the big box stores the last time I looked, though it may be difficult to find it in 5 gallon buckets. I think they only had 1 gallon cans the last time I looked.

Edited to add...

"I'm sure the painters would have suggested it if it was better and available here." I wouldn't be so sure of this. They may not enjoy using the BIN because you really need to wear a respirator (not so comfortable and the respirators and filters cost $) when applying it and it's also more expensive than Kilz.

You don't really need a respirator with BIN if rolling it and there is plenty of ventilation. The worst you will get is an alcohol high, as you are breathing in grain alcohol.

The painters might be avoiding BIN because of its high price tag of about $40 per gallon, although it does spread at about 400 feet per gallon. The Original Kilz is under $20. BIN was my stain/odor killing primer of choice. I always carried a gallon at the ready in my work truck

Another affectiv e cleaner is Dirtex, which has been around for years

If you have flat ceiling paints with nicotine on them, don't even bother to wash them. Nicotine permeates so deep in the pores that washing just doesn't get it out. Simply seal it in with a quick coat of BIN.

$.10 a sf is a very reasonable home improvement.

Rolling BIN over nicotine is a future failure. There is no primer or paint that will perform over a dirty surface. Read the label.

Stripping out the carpet and drapes will improve things. Fabric is an odor trap. Wall washing and duct cleaning may be needed.

HOWEVER. my sister used the white stain-covering alcohol-based shellac over smoke-stained walls and other crap successfully. Vent well, because it's fumes are alcohol.

Also, wash down inside and out on all cabinets, remove and wash all light fixtures, remove and wash all vents.

Brushworks,

I stay with my above advice: it is futile to try to wash nicotine out of porous ceiling paints, and poor quality wall paints as well. The nicotine permeates deep into the pores of the paint and will not come out - until you try to roll a coat of latex paint over it without sealing it in with oil primer or BIN. I will then leach out and stain the new finish coat.

TSP is not legal for sale in Ca veggies - if you look carefully the label says "substitute" or some such.

http://www.painttalk.com/f2/oil-based-primer-ca-5771/#/topics/5771

Tmnca, yes, you can buy tsp in CA. I know about the substitute tsp products that you have mentioned, but you actually can buy real tsp in CA. There are boxes of real tsp on the shelf at my local hardware store. They have the substitute too. Real tsp is evidently also available for pickup at the Lowes and Home Depot stores that are closest to me (according to their websites), though I've had trouble finding the real tsp at the big box stores in the past. If, for some reason, you can't find it at a store near you, you can just order it online and have it shipped to you.

Edited to add, I actually went through a period of time where, like you, I thought you couldn't buy it in CA. I don't know the exact laws and whether or not it is actually not legal, but...it's definitely for sale here, one way or the other. I think it may just not be legal to sell dishwasher/washing machine/other detergents with it added?

Maybe it's a locality thing - I've never seen the "real thing" sold around here. I have the substitute though and dawn dish detergent works great for stripping stuff with a magic eraser sponge, and yes we will rinse the residue... I think we will be OK as far as clean surface. There is only visible soot on the wall and ceiling above the fireplace, soot is not as bad as nicotine which i see no sign of, thankfully.

Well I was wrong - the oil based odor blocking primer was available and the painters used it instead of kilz max (I don't know what brand just that it was oil based). Between that and the old nasty carpet being removed there is no smell remaining. Thanks all!