Roses that don't shatter quickly in wind or rain? And those that do?

6 years ago

last modified: 6 years ago

My area is rather windy, certainly in winter and sporadically in other seasons, and some of my roses have to be in unsheltered spots to get sufficient sun. I suppose that mine is not a unique situation and it would be most helpful if you could please share your experience. Which of your roses do not blow quickly and which ones you find vulnerable to even the mildest of winds? I am interested in rebloomers for a few remaining sunny but unprotected spots - Louise Odier and other bourbons, Cornelia and Felicia among hybrid musks, or any hybrid perpetuals and portlands. Any others that are hardy to zone 6 or so would be fine as well, except for Austins which easily drop their blooms in my experience. Thank you.

Featured Answer

nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska

6 years ago

Vesfl, Louise Odier is nicely hardy for me in zone 5 and climbs reasonably well with at least some surviving cane most years. I have both Cornelia and Felicia and they have limped along for about 6 or 7 years with a few blooms a year. A bunch of free Felicias from the Rogue Valley free roses failed to survive so it's marginally hardy as Mad Gallica points out. A more robust HM would be Heavenly Pink or Ghirlande d'Amour, but be cautioned that they get BIG. These are basically tip hardy for me and bloom off and on all season. Wilhelm is also quite good as is Nur Mahal. Lavender Lassie has survived OK but actually isn't all that happy in part sun - I think in my zone it would prefer full sun. I have yet to have Buff Beauty survive more than a year in several tries but it's supposed to be hardy more or less in my zone so I'll try it yet again.

Sadly, several tries in every way I could try was not enough for Souvenir de la Malmaison to survive even nestled up with full protection by my tea roses (sigh). I'll just have to enjoy Ingrid's lovely pictures. Baronne Prevost is nicely hardy in my zone 4 pocket but doesn't bloom very often in the part shade where I have it.

Among OGRs in zone 5, I have been very impressed with Sydonie. It wants to sprawl and take over serious real estate, and it puts up lovely double pink blooms all along those sprawling canes. It is getting better about reblooming and seems to hold onto its petals fine. Mine is in part shade, as you can tell by the happy hostas below - this is only a modest part of the bush since it covers some serious real estate horizontally, laying the canes over the top of everything else in its path. It's nearly always cane hardy and early to bloom in the spring as well.

Cynthia

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Comments (18)

mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)
6 years ago
If we are talking midwestern 'wind blowing off the plains', Alberta clipper winds, IME they have the ability to do a real number on roses exposed during the winter. Does Quadra hold onto its petals? To an annoying extent because it requires deadheading to look good.

As for the roses you are mentioning, I'd be absolutely shocked if you could get a decent plant out of a Pemberton HM. They just aren't hardy enough for a tough site. Louise Odier has the reputation of getting blackspot if you say the word anywhere near. Here, it is one of the few roses that can get blackspot in May. Usually it isn't noticable before July.
vesfl (zone 5b/6a, Western NY) thanked mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)
vesfl (zone 5b/6a, Western NY)
Original Author
6 years ago
Thank you, mad_gallica. Your advice is, as always, very helpful and spot on. I can't edit my post now. I should have clarified that it's not a vastly open space. Rather, it's a large urban environment and the surrounding houses and trees slow down the winds so they're not as strong as in the open space. I was going more for pink colors but now I'll surely have Quadra in mind as well.

I know about blackspots on bourbons and I'm already dealing with BS on my young Mme. Isaac Pereire but, my goodness, the blooms are absolutely magnificent. So I'm willing to deal with them because I love their bloom form and colors, and Luise Odier seems to be one of the hardier varieties.

If Pemberton HMs are too tender for my zone 5/6, then I wonder about the firmness of petals on Lavender Lassie, another HM I like. Or any other suggestions.
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Lisa Adams
6 years ago
I'm sure you've noticed that I'm a big fan of Louise Odier:) We do get some wind here, mostly breezes, but sometimes real wind. So far she's been great. I know my conditions are vastly different from yours, but no petal shattering in the wind here. She's about 25F down the bed from Winchester Cathedral. If I so much as sneeze on my patio, WC starts offering me "tissues". Louise Odier holds on until they are finished, or I cut them off.

Everyday petals on the grass. WC lasts a little longer in cooler weather, but nowhere near as long as Louise Odier in HOT weather. Same planting positions. The only reason I keep WC is because it's always blooming. That, and I dread the thought of digging up a 6 year old rose, grafted on Dr. Huey:) Lisa
vesfl (zone 5b/6a, Western NY) thanked Lisa Adams
vesfl (zone 5b/6a, Western NY)
Original Author
6 years ago
Lisa, I was thinking about a few bourbons, besides MIP that I already have, and I was completely sold on Louise Odier when I saw your photos and read your comments. ARE shows it's hardy to zone 5 and that sealed it for me. Your love for your favorite rose varieties is very contagious! (I would have grown Mel's Heritage but it's not hardy enough for my zone.) I'm glad that the petals are not too loose. Many thanks.

Both you and mad_gallica have a way to be helpful and informative but also to make me laugh. Blackspot pops up the moment you mention it anywhere near, ... WC offering tissues the moment you sneeze... hahaha! Priceless.
Lisa Adams
6 years ago
Glad I could give you a chuckle, vesfl. Another rose I grow, but it's a hybrid perpetual/damask perpetual is Baronne Prevost. Blooms don't last quite as long as Louise Odiers do, but still better than Winchester Cathedral, for sure. The blooms have more of a button eye, and swirled tight petals. It's really thorny, and I've heard the blooms can have problems opening in the rain. The rain thing is a nonissue here, as is blackspot. It doesn't bloom up a storm like my Louise Odier, but always has a few blooming or budding. BP seems to like plenty of water here, too. Here are a few pictures I just took. The sun is so bright, that they are not the best.

The bush

Bloom

Old bloom, just before petal drop.

I'll look around and see what else I have. I do have Felicia, and adore her. Lisa
vesfl (zone 5b/6a, Western NY) thanked Lisa Adams
nikthegreek
6 years ago
HT's...
vesfl (zone 5b/6a, Western NY) thanked nikthegreek
vesfl (zone 5b/6a, Western NY)
Original Author
6 years ago
What a beautiful Baronne Prevost you have, Lisa! Rain is the problem here but I'll explore this beauty. If there are good options among hybrid or damask perpetuals, that would be wonderful.

Nik, thank you for reminding me about HTs. I love some older varieties (above all, 'Mme. Caroline Testout', ah!) and they should indeed hold their petals better. I'll have to see if they are hardy enough for this situation in my zone.
Lisa Adams
6 years ago
Thanks vesfl. I enjoy my Baronne Prevost very much. I'm taking another picture of the BP bloom for you this morning, as it is overcast and early with no bright sun. I actually hear thunder, which is most unusual for us!

Louise Odier might as well participate today, too:)

Cornelia, by the way is listed as hardy to zone 5b. I do grow Cornelia, but she's young and I can't comment on blooms shattering or not. I had her in afternoon shade. Just as she began to bloom for the first time, my neighbors took a chainsaw to their trees and hedges. Suddenly Cornelia was in full hot sun. That pretty much took care of my blooms:( Lisa
vesfl (zone 5b/6a, Western NY) thanked Lisa Adams
ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Lisa, your Louise Odier and Baronne Prevost are beautiful!

vesfl, I don't know whether Souvenir de La Malmaison is too tender for your climate, but it is one rose that never loses its petals from wind or rain. After prolonged rain the flowers are ugly brown smooshballs, and you'll probably wish they had fallen off.
vesfl (zone 5b/6a, Western NY) thanked ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
vesfl (zone 5b/6a, Western NY)
Original Author
6 years ago
Lisa, it's always a delight to see your LO so please keep her photos coming and that BP's bloom is as perfect as it gets. I'm placing an order for LO and am only inches away from doing the same for BP, rain at all. I think I'll take my chance with Cornelia as well but will have to plant her in one of my two remaining zone 6 pockets, especially after reading mad_gallica's and Cynthia's comments.

Ingrid, thank you as always for your gracious advice. I heard something similar to what Cynthia wrote about SDLM in our colder climate and will have to content myself with enjoying your glorious (I mean GLORIOUS) blooms. I'm glad you mentioned it though because my friend in Houston was looking for a rose for a spot that might get some breeze and SDLM would be just perfect, it will be my long-distance gift :-)

Cynthia, as ever, your enormous experience with so many roses is an indispensable treasure for all of us in cold climates. (Just earlier this morning I was reading one of your recent posts on identifying damaged canes and spring pruning with helpful photos - an exceptional tutorial!) As Lisa's delightful Louise Odier made me want to have this rose, I must say that I now have Reine des Violette thanks to your recommendation, to one of my earlier queries, and with the amazing photo in your garden. I just can't wait for next summer. A huge thanks for your feedback on HMs, it gives me a lot to think about. I've not been as familiar with Sydonie, but it's a gem. Oh, my! part shade + rebloomer + enchanting pink blooms + hardy = it's in my shopping cart!

A huge THANK-YOU all! This is the best forum, hands down.
Lisa Adams
6 years ago
I'm thankful for your questions, vesfl. Not only has it been a pleasure to share some of my roses, but I learned something as well. Cynthia's comment about Sydonies size has been most helpful. I've considered Sydonie myself, and now me thinks maybe I shouldn't. I just don't have that serious real estate she needs. Thanks for that tidbit, Cynthia. Vesfl, I don't know how you feel about Moss roses, Salet is great. Salet's petals don't shatter quickly either. Lisa
vesfl (zone 5b/6a, Western NY) thanked Lisa Adams
vesfl (zone 5b/6a, Western NY)
Original Author
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Lisa, I love Salet!! I was too late to order it last year and now I have it on order for next spring. I was thinking about what moss to have and decided on Salet for a number of reasons, not least for the fact that it was much beloved in the 19th century and still available today (I love that connection with the past). Of course, it also looks beautiful which your photo splendidly confirms. It's interesting that it does so well in your 10a zone and it should be doing well in my 5b. And thank you so much for letting me know about the firmness of its petals. It's a piece of information that is often missing in rose books and catalogue descriptions but very important for the areas like mine.

Another moss that I am interested is Soupert & Notting but it's not widely available except for RVR where it's been out of stock for a long time.

I was just now looking for Sydonie and I'm slightly confused because it appears that there are two roses sold as Sydonie. Helpmefind lists them separately with differences in their class, year & breeder - one is listed as bourbon or HP (1846 Dorisy) and the other as portland (1847 Vibert). Some photos show more compact growth while others show the sprawling habit that Cynthia describes. The trouble is that you see both these habits for each so it seems to me that some nurseries label them interchangeably. I hope Cynthia will chime in about it, perhaps it depends on where we buy them from...
Genevre
6 years ago
Hi, vesfl - I purchased Soupert et Notting a couple of years ago, from Rogue Valley. It's been in my border for a year. One quirk I've noticed on this reblooming moss rose is that each branch tip grows a cluster of about seven buds, very tight together, then they all try to bloom at once and crowd each other. May well be a sign of my neglect in disbudding, but I didn't experience it so much on William Lobb, Fairmount Proserpine or other multi-budded roses. BTW, I greatly love Fairmount Proserpine, which is very fragrant, reblooming, deep pink to magenta, and didn't drop petals early even where I grew it in one of the windiest areas in Arizona (zone 5). High Country Gardens carries it.
vesfl (zone 5b/6a, Western NY) thanked Genevre
Lisa Adams
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Hmm, that would explain why I had Sydonie on my list of possibilities for so long. Wherever it was that I had considered ordering it from must have it described as the smaller, more compact one. It wouldn't have been on my list as the big sprawling one. I'll have to investigate further.

I'm finding that the more roses I grow(and the more I get a feel for what I like best), the more I like the OGR's. I do love some of my modern roses, don't get me wrong. With the OGR's I love that connection to the past. I grow a mixture of OGR, DA's, and more recent intros. The modern ones are mostly chosen for their beauty and longevity as cut flowers or for their special or their oddish colors. I prefer pink or light apricot/pink roses over all, but I have a thing for lavender, mauve, and the coffee colored roses. It's so nice that it's my garden, and I can pick and choose.

That's great to hear that you already have Salet on order. I too am pleasantly surprised at how well Salet is doing in my zone. Just yesterday, (or maybe Sunday) I took a pic of Salet's last bloom from the 2nd flush. My first flush was ruined by our Santa Ana winds. I'm going to look up S&N, as I'm unfamiliar with it.

Thanks for the compliment on Louise Odier and Baronne Prevost, Ingrid. I always feel your compliments are such high praise, coming from such an expert. I think I kind of have the hang of how to grow roses and plants,but my design technique leaves much to be desired:) Lisa
vesfl (zone 5b/6a, Western NY) thanked Lisa Adams
vesfl (zone 5b/6a, Western NY)
Original Author
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Lisa, you might want to consider Soupert et Notting because it'si supposed to be compact (3x2 or so). BTW, I feel the same about Ingrid's garden and her taste is exquisite, as is yours also.

Genevre, I am delighted to hear that you got S&N from RVR a couple of years ago. It gives me a hope it could be back in stock soon. How interesting about the seven-bud cluster but I don't think it's any neglect because I've just now found a photo showing 6-7 buds on the same cluster and it's from Paul Barden's garden, which ensures the credibility that it's normal:

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.140483

Fairmount Proserpine, what an interesting name! I look forward to finding more about her. Thank you.
nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska
6 years ago
Vesfl, what lovely comments - I appreciate your kind words, but do remember I've learned so much of what I know about roses from GardenWeb myself (well, that and making lots of mistakes of my own). Now you're here sharing your own expertise and every bit of that input makes this the lovely community that it is. I'm glad that RdV is happy and settled in your yard, and I'm sure she'll be lovely for you.

That's interesting about Sydonie. Mine is the Dorisy/Vibert HP from Vintage in 2013, so I'm pretty sure it's accurate coming from Gregg Lowery. As I recall, their information listed both Dorisy and Vibert as breeders and/or distributors, so it may be that this is one of those roses that has mixed identification as a Portland or HP in different sources, or perhaps that there are two roses that have been confused over time. There may indeed be different versions circulating, as can happen with OGRs.

Also, some folks might post about the mannerly nature of a given rose only to discover it hasn't gotten its legs under it yet for the sprint across the yard. Lisa, if you have a small space for this rose, it's undoubtedly going to get bigger in your zone than mine so caution is a good thing. However, this is a rose that is 12 inches high and 12 feet wide, so it could either ramble through another rose or potentially be encouraged to wind around some support. As I recall the canes are fairly flexible, and it's entirely cane hardy for me most years.

I put in Soupert & Notting last year from Rogue Valley and it survived the winter fine, though not with any canes. I haven't seen much blooming yet from mine but it's in part shade and I don't really expect much till the third year from any rose. I'm looking forward to the funky blooming pattern you describe, Genevre. It's reassuring that the Pernet moss roses don't have the very tender nature of the Pernet HTs, since the latter are woefully wimpy over the winters in multiple tries. Salet has also survived quite well - cane hardy in my zone - and I had a few blooms this spring but again I don't expect much in its second year yet. I also have Fairmount Proserpine on my wish list for next spring, and High Country Gardens nearly always has roses that are nicely hardy in zone 5. Thanks for the suggestion Genevre!

Cynthia
vesfl (zone 5b/6a, Western NY) thanked nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska
vesfl (zone 5b/6a, Western NY)
Original Author
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Cynthia, thank you very much.

That's really good to know about your Sydonie source. Indeed, Vintage Gardens must have had the right one and I will inquire at a few nurseries about their mother plant, hoping that one of them came from Vintage. In the Vintage book of roses (such an indispensable reference!), Lowery & Robinson list Lowe as the source for their Sydonie, another legendary rose grower of great repute who alas was way before I've started my own garden.