We had a couple of nights in the mid 20s so I brought my pleuro-types in. Now that it's only going down into the 40s, I think I'm going to chuck them out again. I NEED more than keikis!

If they melt, I'll blame you, though.

Stacy

Stacy

I forgot to put my disclaimer at the end of my post.

I am no way, no how responsible for leading people astray, killing their plants because of incomplete, inaccurate or completely false information. The reader of my posts assumes all responsibility for figuring out what it true and what is just a bunch of hogwash.

K

Happy day. A disclaimer that makes sense.

What's with the deep freeze for orchids this year? The pre-mature dormancy? It's November folks. This has been going on for over a month. Tain't culture. A pleuro can take cool nights but what about days? Yup somewhere ya got a kink in the culture. I suspect temps are not consistent. If you have a wild collected plant they don't deal with any cultural fudging. Keikei's same problem. Culture is off. Keikeis, the plant's way of trying to pass on it's genetics. It feels that threatened by conditions.

Don't know of too many cloud forest orchids that don't like near 80 days and 50's night. If ya can't provide that for 'em 365, no it probably won't bloom. Half the year won't cut it. For some, even a week of unstable conditions blows the chance at blooms. That's why the Wardian case was invented.

If ya can't give it the culture it needs, don't buy it. Freezing it ain't the way to go. We will be seeing posts in the future laden with problems from the deep freeze and dormancy bogart happening now.

Kids don't try this at home.
Mike

Unless the orchid is a native cypripedium, calypso bulbosa or some species where the genera needs winter dormancy, most commercial orchids available do not tolerate freezing temperatures. 32 degrees will basically kill most orchids. Some orchids like Mexican laelias will tolerate near freezing temps. Maybe even freezing temps but only temporarily. Here in S. California, our winter low temps are around the low 40s. Cymbidiums and dendrobiums need this winter chill and for nobile type dendrobes, this is their dormant period. Cool and dry. In the case of many cut flower type cattleyas, their blooming cycle is dependant on day length.

Do either of you grow the above mentioned plants? If yes, would love to hear the details and maybe pics of blooms.

A couple of comments:

Neither plant was wild collected to my knowledge. Both were obtained from friends frustrated with the no bloom thing. I think they would have been compost had I not taken them.

Keikis - Yup, have a couple of these on each plant. Does this signify the imminent demise of a plant? It might if the plant is obviously croaking. It's also my understanding some plants do this as a matter of fact - another way of reproducing. I seem to remember past discussions about Dend kingianum and how some plants are keiki machines even when grown well. My biggest keiki producer is Den hercoglossum. It came from Oak Hill with a tons of them and has continued to produce them along with flowers and new growth over the past 2-3 years. It appears to be a very happy plant.

Now it gets tricky when one says all Pleuros come from cloud forest regions of the earth. They don't. Probably the vast majority do grow there, but they also grow in tropical regions as well as some temperate ones. Did you know there is at least one species native to Florida? Pleuro gelida grows there. Wouldn't call that a cloud forest region.

Back to the plants in question:
It's been a while since I've done much research on the velaticaulis and never did find much that helped me all that much. I have done more on restrepioides, but haven't sorted everything out yet. For one thing, it's natural distribution is huge - Columbia, Peru and Ecuador at elevations from 3200 to over 9000 feet. There's a big temperature variation at those elevations. To make things even more confusing, many things influence temperature in those areas. It's been very difficult finding any info about what the specific temps are in the areas where this plant grows. For instance, I did find the following about temps at 9200 in Ecuador: The highest temperatures are in Aug - Sept when they approach 72 F. The balance of the year the temps are generally in the low 60's. June and July are the coldest when the highs are in the 40's. Does this apply to all regions of Ecuador at 9200 feet? I don't know. Are the temps where restep. grows at 9100 feet like this? I don't know. See the problem?

In any case, I think it's wrong to say the temps for all Pleuros are going to be in such-a-such range. They aren't. Clearly some grow much warmer and some grow much colder with variances between seasons. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

I noticed that SBOE says they grow this one outside. I don't think of Santa Barbara, CA as having cloud forest conditions. It's also my understanding temps can get quite chilly (by orchid standards) during winter.

Lastly: When I started a thread about this plant some years ago, the only person I can remember who successfully bloomed it lived in Canada and clearly stated he kept this one outside until temps dropped into the 30s F. Lots and lots of other people stated they grew it, but had never bloomed it.

Kevin

There are Pleuros which grow at sea level and never see temps below 75-80F. There are Pleuros which grow up in the high montaine cloud forests where days temps never go above the 70s -- and that's considered a warm day -- and it often drops below freezing at night. You need to know where your specific plant came from and the altitude, and then you will know how to grow it.

Throughout the tropics, temperatures are set by altitude, and it will be the same temp all over the world for that altitude with very few exceptions. As a very basic guide, 15m will mean a hot-growing plant, 500m will be a warm-grower, 1500m an intermediate grower, over 2000m is a cool grower. Except for my very few cool-growers, I usually don't grow orchids whose habitat is over 1000m because most can't seem to take my hot summers and slowly croak over a couple years.

I have two Phalaenopsis species which, in their natural habitat, are deciduous and get snowed on -- which would kill other Phal species and most hybrids -- and these two cold ones will melt over 80F during my hot summers and have to live in the a/c along with some cool-growing Pleuros and other small species.

Kevin - would like to know what the highs were like during the coldest stretch, and whether they got rained on as well (i.e., were they wet and cold, or just cold?)

I finally pulled in the last of the orchids when our lows were in the mid 30s with rain - the combo of rain and highs only 10 degrees higher finally persuaded me. With sun and warmer days, I might have left them out for a bit longer. Actually looking at the forecast now (lows 40+), I think a couple are going back out. I want my kitchen floor back.

Pleurothallis variabilis is a standard high altitude cloud forest species orchid from Colombia/ Ecuador i.e. an Andes Pleuro alliance orchid. Just about identical in culture to Dracula, Masdevallia from the region. Yup, have/do grown 'em. Days and evenings are temperature steady year 'round. Roughly 80 days and mid 50s nights 25 diurnal range. The kink in your culture that prevents the bloom. Even line bred pleuros can't have temps ignored for 4,5 months and be expected to bloom.

To freeze an orchid to acheive necessary temp variation required for blooming should't be a blanket recommendation or considered proper culture. Risky. Only point I was 'a makin' on behalf of the newer growers.

If they don't bloom - freeze those puppies!

You were lucky not to kill it, something by your own admission you do at times. and I mean that in the kindest way Brother. Caution must be exercised when those type of blanket recommendations are given. Not everyone realizes that you are at an advanced growing level. Willing to take risks
Mike

What do you consider "high altitude," Mike, as a gauge for us? In meters, please, since that is how most orchid books and sites list it.

Lapse rate includes temperature change with altitude. I'm not entirely sure if the change is linear - it may not because the air gets thinner, and other variables change to make the calculation less obvious. A more friendly site here. alvin

CJ - Thanks for that. I know you've lived in some of these regions, so I know you've experienced first hand what some of these climates are like.

Komi - Temps - If I remember correctly the few nights temps dropped into the mid 30's the days warmed up into the mid 50's. I know there were only a couple of night like this. There were more nights in the 40's with days in the 50-60+ range. Yes, it did rain a lot, but not during those really cold nights. My plants outside are somewhat protected from rain, but still do get rained on. Winds were quite strong, so I think the plants dried off rather quickly. I'm also very religious about weekly fungicide spraying.

Mike - Come on!! You didn't take that freezing thing literally did you? That was just something to get people's attention and I believe that was made clear in the body of the thread. No where did I say temps went below 32 F - the generally accepted freezing point of water.

"Yup, have/do grown 'em." I'm not sure what that means? Does that mean you've grown the plants I have questions about?

"You were lucky not to kill it, something by your own admission you do at times" - and where do I say that in this thread?

K

Yeah K, that was really bad blanket advice. Most new orchid growers start with Pleuros and work their way up to harder things like Phals. You should be ashamed, but I bet you're not.

In my experience, orchids do well if you grow them right. The only tricky bit, really, is growing them right.

-O-

Sage advice.

But I did post a disclaimer. You can't be held responsible for nothin' if you post one of those.

k

Kevin, You're in the clear, far as this lawyer's daughter can tell. The title of your post is humorous, even to a literal-minded nearly-novice as myself. You qualified your statements all over the place in your message, and you posted a disclaimer that even was funny.

About the only thing you might be guilty of is creating an "attractive nuisance," but I can't imagine a jury of your peers would vote to lock you up.

Whitecat8