Christopher you are an amazing mind of very helpful information!! I really appreciate it. I do believe Marie pavie is growing at our local garden so I'll look for it . I do have and love perle de or. I need to smell it again and compare! Thank you!!

Christopher, where DO you learn all this stuff?!

Lilyfinch, Marie Pavie is VERY fragrant! When she's mature, her fragrance carries several feet in the breeze. I've grown her for over 20 years. She's disease resistant and an easy keeper with no balling in my wet climate. Can't imagine being without her! I believe there are two Maries in Commerce. Vintage carried the one with more petals. Mine came from ARE. To my nose, Perle is only lightly scented, but you should do your own sniff tests since perceptions vary by nose. :-) Carol

Well, I simply drew conclusions from investigating roses, along with having a paid HMF membership which allows me to search lineages. I tried choosing more fragrant individual roses of each class when I bought them for here, and I noticed that among the Polyanthas, those fragrant individuals had something in common -- Tea ancestry. When I look at Polyanthas that are basically unscented, I notice something else -- no Tea ancestry. I see a similar pattern among the Hybrid Musks. The exceptions seem to be among some white Polyanthas and Hybrid Musks which don't have strong color from Chinas, and their scent is basically Multiflora. But that's not the scent I find in 'Clotilde Soupert'.

:-)

~Christopher

If you can, it might be helpful to move Clotilde Soupert under the eaves of your house. That's where I grow Souvenir de la Malmaison, and it's helped a lot with balling. You will need to irrigate it, since the soil under the eaves can get bone dry, but it will greatly reduce the amount of balling.

So far, Clotilde Soupert is opening better than ever for me this year, despite our rainy spring. Unlike SDLM, it's not protected by the eaves, so it's probably just a matter of time before the blooms get destroyed by a passing rain cloud!

Great balling prevention suggestion, John! Your CS is beautiful. That's so interesting you used the strategy with your SdlM. I used to grow her the same way, under cover. I posted about it in an ancient comment on the forum. I'm currently growing Felicite Parmentier under an eave. Carol

I wish I could say I was clever enough to think of it myself, but in reality, I planted SDLM in front of a window, so I could see it. It was only later that I noticed the absence of balling on the side of the shrub closest to the house. Our eaves aren't the large traditional PNW eaves, so half of the blooms are still sacrificed to the rain gods each spring and fall!

I remember reading an article/newsletter from Vintage Gardens that dealt with different classes of fragrance in roses. It made lists of roses which came from different classes but had the same fragrance. I tried finding the article using internet archive, but no luck so far.

Does anyone else remember this and might have saved a copy? I believe Clotilde Soupert was mentioned in there.

Bellegallica, is this the newsletter you mean?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwpLhGcGhvmzMXo1TGlnS0xrWlk/view?usp=drivesdk

Lilyfinch,

Christopher rules!

I can delver a speech before Congress on the attributes of Marie Pavie.

First and last to bloom every year.

One of the things I miss most since I transitioned 8 yrs. ago from ORGs to fragrant modern roses are the polyanthas Marie Pavie and her sport, Marie Daly.

There were a number of Marie Pavies in my rose bed, one of which, the oldest, was a dense shrub shaped monster 3.5' X 3.5'. Her spring flush was so lush, you could easily count 300, 1.75" across blooms open at once. She was bulletproof regarding black spot. Midge fly did zap some new shoots, but her profuse blooming nature did not significantly diminish flower production to warrant spraying.

The scent....memorable...traveled on the air with ease. The scent was that of Rose Milk brand hand lotion, to my sniffer.

Her foliage was a darkish green that set off the white flowers very well. The pre-open buds show some pink at first, but the open bloom is very white.

There were flower petal count differences between Marie Pavie from Pickering Nursery (no longer in business), and the MP from Chamblee's. From Pickering the flowers were petal packed. The boss was never visible even when fully open. Chamblee's version had fewer petals, still very double though, but bosses were showing on open blooms. The scent and strength were identical.

Now Marie Daly is great, but not exactly a pink Marie Pavie clone. The flowers of Marie Daly are more cupped, but essentially the same size. The foliage is lighter colored and larger. Leaves are bit out of proportion to the bloom, too big, being half again as large as Marie Pavie's leaves.

Marie Daly grows more erect, with stiffer stems.

I did not find Marie Daly's scent as strong as M. Pavie's, although it is the same Rose Milk Hand Lotion scent. This is by my nose, of course. Reports of M. Daly being stronger scented puzzled me.

Marie Pavie was very hardy for me and increased in size every year, but was not tip hardy. This fact had no effect on its lavish yearly show. M. Daly was tip hardy. Both got no protection.

There you have it...my experience with the two Maries.

Moses

Yes! That's it. Guess I didn't look hard enough--thanks.

He put Clotilde among those with Musk fragrance. I can't remember what Clotilde smelled like, and I haven't smelled half of these, but Gregg Lowery thinks these belong together:

Rosa moschata plena, Rosa moschata Temple Musk, "Secret Garden Noisette"
Bouquet Tout, Fait
Princesse de Nassau, Caroline Marniesse, Aimée Vibert, Cornelia, Danaë, Daybreak, Joan Taylor, Anne Marie de Montravel, Clothilde Soupert, Boule de Neige, Mlle. Blanche Lafitte, Rosa sinowilsonii.

Thanks for that fabulous link! I've been looking for something like that for ages.

Lilyfinch, were you able to find another rose that smells like Clothide?

Also looking at the two Marie's and despite Moses giving a detailed description, still confused. ARE says on the website that Daly is the better version. I would be buying mostly for the fragrance and rebloom. Do they tolerate any shade?

Realize this thread is old, but it talks about both the topics that I am currently thinking about!

I have Marie pavie now and if indeed smells amazing. Mine is still new , got it from ARE . I may be moving it to a better spot as I really crammed it in . Marie is also at the local rose garden and really smells amazing there . They also have Marie Daly but they look the same to me so I’m not certain they have it correct.

Thank you...I'm leaning towards Daly as it's on the earth kind list and reading that it is more disease resistant. I hope I get the same fragrance

I have Marie Pavie from RU and from ARE. Those from RU are densely petaled and those from ARE are semi-double. Both are fragrant, both are charming. Just a bit different.