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melheartflowers

Need help setting up the soil in a new yard for planting

melheartflowers
6 years ago

Hi all,

As you can see from my pictures, we are at the very earliest stage of putting in our landscaping. I need the most basic of advice for amending the soil and getting it ready for planting. The upper beds will be planted with shrubs, ground cover and perennials. The bottom area near the lower sidewalk will be turf. There will be thick planting beds along the sidewalk and below the retaining wall. The yard faces southeast and gets a lot of sun and a fair amount of wind.

Do we need to do a soil test for all these areas to determine what types of amendments to use? If not, is topsoil enough of an amendment or do we need to put in other things as well? How deeply do the amendments need to be worked in? My husband seems to think we only need to put down a couple of inches of topsoil and then add amendments as we plant but that doesn't seem right to me.

Any resources you can guide me to for reading are much appreciated as well. Thank you!



Comments (27)

  • melheartflowers
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Gotcha Dan, and point well taken. I should have included I'm in southern Colorado in a high prairie environment, USDA zone 6a. We do have some serious limestone formations underlying the area, and several of the lots in our newish subdivision required extensive excavation to break through it. Our lot did not, however.

    Our neighbor is a landscaper but I hate to keep asking him questions. Guess I'll suck it up and bug him some more.

    And I'll do the shovel test as well to see what we're dealing with. Thanks!

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  • Embothrium
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Don't add any amendments for anything except flowering annuals and annual vegetable plants. Choose plants that will grow in your existing soil - after it has been aerated by loosening with a fork or tiller - and with a mulch applied immediately after planting. Or excavate and replace* with good topsoil, if it appears needed anywhere there, in order to grow particular kinds of plants you want to have. Like hybrid bush roses or peonies.

    Use sheets or strips of plywood to walk on the loosened soil while planting and mulching, without compacting it with your feet.

    *The sunken part behind the wall can just be brought up to wall height with good topsoil, maybe after leveling the existing soil first - so that there is a uniform depth of topsoil (do not mix the two soils together)

    melheartflowers thanked Embothrium
  • rgreen48
    6 years ago

    What type of soil is there now?

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    6 years ago

    If you want a lawn, you will need to amend. And rather heavily at that. A good healthy lawn requires 6-8 inches (and I'd lean to the higher number) of loose, organically rich, well draining soil. Just digging out what's there and replacing with topsoil ain't gonna cut it!! That's why new builder landscapes almost always have partial to complete lawn failure after the first season - there is not enough of a good soil bed for the lawn to root in properly, become drought tolerant and flourish. The lawn dies out in patches and the weeds move in.

    If you want a nice lawn, take the time and effort and the expense to do it right to begin with.

    melheartflowers thanked gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
  • daninthedirt (USDA 9a, HZ9, CentTX, Sunset z30, Cfa)
    6 years ago

    Be careful about "topsoil". That word is undefined, and pretty much has to mean that it came from the top of someones soil. What was on the top of their soil could be crappy soil. Anyone can sell junk as "topsoil". I've seen hideous stuff in bags labelled such. What you have on top of your bed right now is "topsoil", no? Never ever buy anything just called "topsoil". You can dig in lots of compost, or go to a reputable nursery and buy a mix that is intended for lawns.

    melheartflowers thanked daninthedirt (USDA 9a, HZ9, CentTX, Sunset z30, Cfa)
  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    6 years ago

    Agree completely with the above! You always want to see before you buy :-)) And a decent lawn needs a lot more than just 'topsoil' anyway.......it needs an appreciable amount of organic matter and an enriched 'garden soil mix' is more what you are looking for.

    And try and find a bulk provider. Bulk purchasing is significantly less expensive than buying in bags and most outfits that sell bulk soil products will also deliver.

    melheartflowers thanked gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
  • glib
    6 years ago

    It is not as simple as dumping a load of whatever on top. You need water and root penetration also, and biology. A cover crop that is deep rooted and will escape the HOA nazis' attention, due to its low height, is clover. Next year this time you are going to have root channels to six feet, with most of the penetration happening in winter, and you can start replacing clover with grass or plant shrubs into the clover (they will shade it and make it disappear over time). This should cost you about 5 dollars including inoculum, regular watering this year, and about one year wait. You can plant the small shrubs already of course, but not grass as it is best not to mow soil improving plants. The key is in letting it develop one winter. Repeated mowing will then terminate it and free those channels for your desired plants.

  • lazy_gardens
    6 years ago

    Look at native grasses for lawn because they can handle the doil and the climate ... Sundancer strain of Buffalo grass, or Cody. (there are some sod providers of buffalo).

    For establishing the turf, given the wind, useJute erosion control netting or your expensive topsoil will end up in Nebraska.


    melheartflowers thanked lazy_gardens
  • toxcrusadr
    6 years ago

    Your shovel test needs to not only estimate how deep the soil is, but whether there are layers of different types (did they actually put 'topsoil' back and is it different from what's underneath, and how deep is it?). Also what TYPE of soil - is it sandy, silty or clay? When damp, if you squeeze a handful of it, does it ball up tightly, loosely or not at all?

    If you do have a soil test done, which is not a bad idea, you can take a composite of the topsoil from various spots in the yard. Ask for NPK analysis (if they do N separately, you can skip it, it varies a lot and the lab will always tell you to add it anyway); pH, organic matter, and micronutrients (Ca, Mg, Fe etc.).

    The soil is probably alkaline so don't plan to add lime but the lab test will tell you. Or the neighbor will. :-D

    Pending the test results, if this was my yard I would do the following:

    Find a place to get bulk screened compost. Till a couple inches into the areas that will be lawn. This is your one best chance to amend the lawn areas. I see the soil is not too high (it's not above the sidewalk already) so you have some room to create 'fluff' in the soil texture without having too much dirt. In fact you could probably remove a few wheelbarrows full if you need to fill in somewhere.

    As for the other beds, the reason someone suggested not amending for perennials and shrubs is to avoid amending only planting holes which can harm the plants' ability to send roots outward as they grow. But if you amend large areas - again by tilling in compost over the whole area - it's not a problem. So consider doing that especially if you want to grow non-natives that need richer soil.

    Finally, mulches. You live in a fairly arid climate so wood chips, leaves, grass clippings, whatever you can get will help retain water in your beds. And it will degrade into the soil and feed it.

    melheartflowers thanked toxcrusadr
  • daninthedirt (USDA 9a, HZ9, CentTX, Sunset z30, Cfa)
    6 years ago

    Well, be aware that if you increase the height of the bed with compost, it'll eventually just sink back to where it was as the compost slowly degrades. But you can't go wrong by tilling in compost. I would not remove any soil.

    Good idea to "core sample" the yard. You need to dig a hole deep enough (a foot?) to really understand what is down there. Once a lawn and other perennials are planted, you won't have the opportunity to do that again. That is, even if there aren't rocks down there, there could be stuff that's very different than what is on the surface.

    Native grasses are a good idea. You should understand what the neighborhood will let you get away with.

    As noted, it is a mistake to just amend where you're going to put plants. Do the whole thing, and do it right. Just rent a tiller, or hire one. If your neighbor is a landscaper, it makes no sense not to ask for advice. It's not just about your front yard, but the front yard that is next to his/her front yard. If you do something stupid, you'll be living with it for a long time.

  • melheartflowers
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Thanks for all the advice everyone! I will pass all this along to my husband so we can amend the various areas of our yard according to what we want to plant there. Lawn will actually be the smallest area of planting but I appreciate the advice on native grass and wholeheartedly agree. We won't be using that area for any recreation purposes so native grass is definitely how we want to go.

    As for soil type, I did a crude soil test last night (dug up some dirt, shook it in a jar of water and let it settle overnight) and got what you see in the jar below. Based on my VERY amateur evaluation it looks like we have more of a sandy loam. Obviously very light in color and thus - based on what I read - very low in soil nutrients.

    So if I'm understanding what you all are saying we need to put down at least 6-8" of composted garden soil mix. We did get a truckload of dark "topsoil" from a local landscape supply place. How do I know if that's good quality or if we need something additional?

  • rgreen48
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Do the jar test with what you bought to see what that shakes up as, and call up the place you bought the soil and ask them if they composed (mixed it from known constituents) it themselves, or if it just came from some other place.

    It's not really that topsoil is bad, it's just that it has no real meaning. If a piece of forest was cut down, and the soil taken off, sure that can be sold as topsoil. If, 5 years later, the same piece of land was once again scraped off, that too can be sold as 'topsoil'. Which one do you think would better nurture a healthy landscape?

    Most any soil can be made into something acceptable, it's just that knowing what you have gives you an idea what you need to do to make it fit your purpose. Starting with something that fits your needs makes it easier than building from scratch. And that comes down to finances, time, and ability. If you have time, ability, and no finances, build your own from what you have. If you have less time, perhaps less ability, and/or you have the finances factored into the cost of the home, search out a known product that fits your needs.

    Really though, an honest soil broker won't sell topsoil as something that came off the top of soil, but as a quality product intended to be used as topsoil.

    ETA... now that you know your native soil is sandy loam, if you needed to, whatever you use to build from could be tilled into the native soil. In that case, you wouldn't need anything that has a lot of sand in it.

    melheartflowers thanked rgreen48
  • daninthedirt (USDA 9a, HZ9, CentTX, Sunset z30, Cfa)
    6 years ago

    Good advice, and I'd echo that if you got your "top soil" from a reputable landscaper, it's probably good for a garden or lawn bed. But certainly ask. Was that topsoil sold as a lawn bed starter? Is it high in organics? Now that you've got a truckload of the stuff delivered, though, it's probably late to decide whether you should dig it in. If you have room to apply it, I wouldn't hesitate to get some real compost and dig that in along with the soil you have. You'd rather just dig it in once, so do it all together.

  • kimmq
    6 years ago

    Where in the world are you?

    Many have stated here to be very careful about buying something called "topsoil"

    That jar test tells me that you have sand, I see nothing to indicate it might be sandy loam. A good reliable soil test, your state university agricultural school may do that, would be a good starting point. You do need a good quality soil, although you could add a few tons of compost and get good soil in a few years.

    When looking at soil to put in there, do look, feel, smell and ask questions about that soil, How much sand, silt, and clay is in the mix? How much organic matter is in the mix? You want something close to a mix of 45 percent sand, 25 percent silt, 25 percent clay, an 5 percent organic matter. If possible get a 1 cup sample of that soil and run that jar test on it, before committing to purchase. The soil should smell pleasant (a good, rich earthy aroma), should feel somewhat gritty but smooth, and should look like a good rich soil, not sand or clay.

    A lawn needs a base of 6 to 8 inches of good soil to grow in with few problems while trees, shrubs, and flowers will root much deeper. Since the landscape will be there for a long time it is best to get the best soil you can at the start.

    In addition to the soil test for soil pH and nutrient levels perhaps these simple soil tests may be of some help.

    1) Soil test for organic
    material. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in
    a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fitting lid. Fill that jar with water and
    replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it stand for 24
    hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight.
    For example, a good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the
    bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above
    that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top.

    2) Drainage. Dig a hole
    1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains
    away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain
    away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains’ too quickly and needs
    more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the
    soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up.

    3) Tilth. Take a handful
    of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is
    released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a
    finger that clump should fall apart.

    4) Smell. What does your
    soil smell like? A pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant
    odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria
    will be and the nicer your soil will smell, to a point. Too much organic matter
    can be bad as well.

    5) Life. How many
    earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5,
    according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that
    is not healthy.

    melheartflowers thanked kimmq
  • toxcrusadr
    6 years ago

    OP's second post said southern Colorado.

    OK, so you have some bought soil, so ditto on the advice to ask the place you got it what it's made up of. Depending on how big a 'truckload' is (pickup or dump?) it will cover some amount of area with a reasonable layer. You might want to use it where the soil level is low. Someone said compost will break down and the soil will recompact - true at least to an extent. With sand it probably will not develop as much permanent 'fluff' as clay would with the addition of organic matter.

    You can of course amend the soil you have - that's how they make these 'garden soil' mixes anyway, soil + compost. That's why I made the suggestion of getting bulk compost to till in.

    One more piece of advice: don't think you have to do all this landscaping at once. Take your time, do the parts you need most, and if you need to, mulch some areas that you can come back to in fall or spring and work with. Right now you have tabula rasa so you have all the space in the world to till and do whatever without damaging a single plant. That's a blessing. But if you don't have the time or resources to get it all amended and planted with exactly what you want, you can decide to do a good job on what you can tackle now and do the rest later, rather than skimping on soil treatments now and regretting it later when you can't dig up your perennial beds to till in compost.

    Have fun and report back!

    melheartflowers thanked toxcrusadr
  • daninthedirt (USDA 9a, HZ9, CentTX, Sunset z30, Cfa)
    6 years ago

    True about not doing it all at once. But if you're going to rent or hire a tiller, you probably ought to do as much as you can for that rental charge. If we're talking about you using a shovel, sure. Take your time. But I will reiterate that whatever part you do, do a complete job, because once you have shrubs and grass planted, you aren't going to come in and do it again.

    melheartflowers thanked daninthedirt (USDA 9a, HZ9, CentTX, Sunset z30, Cfa)
  • melheartflowers
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    A thousand thank yous to all of you for the amazing advice. And for giving me some perspective on how to proceed. I think I've been so overwhelmed with the big picture I couldn't give myself permission to take it slow and get it right with each individual area.

    So now based on all your comments I am going to start with the area nearest the house, make sure I have good quality "top soil" worked in there based on further assessment of the soil type and focus for the moment on those plantings.

    Here's what I've decided so far: In front of the porch I am putting in Red Osier Dogwood (Cornus Serica) bushes. They flower in spring, have berries in the fall and have pretty winter interest. Then in the indented area between the porch and garage, which gets more afternoon shade I'm thinking peonies (not xeric but I lurve me some peonies) and a nice climbing ground cover. Then I will take a step back and assess what's next - or get my work force (husband and son) to start work on the next area. :)

    I will update as things progress. Thanks again!

  • armoured
    6 years ago

    If you're only going to deal with a specific part of the yard to start with, it would be a good idea to cover the soil elsewhere with some kind of mulch or compost. It'll put some organic matter in there, keep the soil covered, keep dust down and help keep moisture in the soil, keep the soil from forming a thick hard crust, and be helpful in the long run in terms of promoting 'soil life'. Ideal would be if your municipality or local utility gives away shredded tree waste or compost, but even wood chips or other wood waste would be fine too. Maybe your landscaper neighbour can help you source. Even an inch of whatever would make a difference. Obviously also whatever looks acceptable to you. Later, when you decide to get to final decisions on those parts of the yard, you can till in or cover with whatever soil/garden mix works for you, or just pretend it isn't there, it'll decompose over time. If you get a dryish mulch, I'd suggest watering thoroughly once after it gets spread (if there isn't a good heavy rainfall).

    melheartflowers thanked armoured
  • daninthedirt (USDA 9a, HZ9, CentTX, Sunset z30, Cfa)
    6 years ago

    That's a smart suggestion. Rather than just leave the soil bare where you're not going to till anything in, mulch it heavily. When you eventually start tilling there, just till the mulch in along with whatever other amendment you choose to apply. FWIW, a mulched bed is a lot more attractive than a dry or muddy bed of dirt. Doing that requires very little effort and expense.

    melheartflowers thanked daninthedirt (USDA 9a, HZ9, CentTX, Sunset z30, Cfa)
  • melheartflowers
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Fantastic suggestion armoured and dan! We recently had a late spring snowstorm that did a number on the trees in town and the city made a ton of mulch that we can get for free. We can get that put down before the rain that's expected late Saturday. Thanks again!


  • toxcrusadr
    6 years ago

    Boy I would be out hauling that free stuff by the truckload and cover everywhere that's going to be planting beds with 4-6". And a spare pile in the back yard just in case. I like free stuff. :-D :-D

    melheartflowers thanked toxcrusadr
  • armoured
    6 years ago

    If you can get free stuff put as thick as you can. Well, within reason.

    melheartflowers thanked armoured
  • melheartflowers
    Original Author
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Lol toxcrusadr - agreed. We are lucky in that regard. I don't know if people don't really know about it or we just have an overabundance but there's generally always some for the taking. We'll be sure to load up! Thanks again armoured!

  • melheartflowers
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Just to make you all jealous. Got a big old truckload this weekend!

  • daninthedirt (USDA 9a, HZ9, CentTX, Sunset z30, Cfa)
    6 years ago

    Very nice, but if you want to "improve" part of the yard, by tilling in compost or putting a layer of high quality soil on, you want to do that first. The mulch goes on top of everything. Of course, a year after you put the mulch on, it'll all be effectively composted, and you can dig that in. So if your landscaping is going to happen on a time scale of a year, sure, just pile the mulch on right now.

  • melheartflowers
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Ahhhh, why didn't you say so? Lol. Just kidding. That makes sense. We are trying to plant most of it this year, but there are large areas that will have to wait so we will put the mulch there. I figured we could also use it in the areas of new planting as well to keep in moisture and control weeds.

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