It's not what you know...it's WHO!

Your SIL's boss contacted him *directly* to make the offer. Why wouldn't he get back to the boss to express gratitude and explain the only thing holding him back?

Bosses get suspicious when an employee turns down promotions.

I agree with both Rob and Chisue, he definitely needs to be more specific about what he needs in order to accept the job, but he should also contact his boss. Every company is different and who knows, his boss may actually have the pull needed to make it happen.

I agree. I think maybe they might actually offer the 'X' when they realize it is necessary.

In my opinion, the proper protocol is for you stay out of it. The best way to have good in-law relationships is to know your place. If he makes the wrong decision, that's his right and the consequences are their's - not your's.

chisue, the so-called boss makes the strategic decision and then turns it over to the admin (HR) people to take care of details. If there's a problem after the fact with terms he accepted and HR is unresponsive, then sure, he should get back to the boss.

I see no element of "it's who you know" in this.

In today's world, with the complications of home, family, and spouses of equal standing in a marriage, turning down promotions or transfers is very common. On the other hand, doing so can limit further advancement when future opportunities arise.

SIL= sister in law BIL=Brother in law

They can't afford to move without more money being offered at the new job. Plain and simple. Tell his boss, tell HR, but he can't accept the position until the offer changes.

Most corporate jobs where you move have a sliding scale depending on the areas in the country you will be working. That is my experience from many years ago when worked as a corporate V.P. I now work in a much different scenario so I might be off but not to my knowledge of others.

If you move from central U.S. to DC, Chicago, LA,NY.....you are going to get compensation.

If SIL feels his direct boss is on his side, request a meeting in person or via Facetime. He has to explain that he thought this was a promotion but would have a big financial cost. Ask if the boss can help at all. Explain how he got so excited to be moving up in a company he loves and is hoping he can find a way to move into this position while still living a middle class lifestyle. Wish you all the best of luck.

I like Rob's short and sweet (well, direct!) approach. It's business.

While most companies offer a cost of living adjustment with a promotion to a more expensive market, it is generally never enough to make up the entire difference. As an employee, you have to decide whether to take the risk of having a lower standard of living for a while in order to gain possible future promotions and ultimately, a much higher income. It's not an easy decision to make and with the constant upheaval among companies these days, future promotions are not a given.

I agree with Rob that the employee has to negotiate with his boss and his boss has to give direction to HR. If your relative is an exemplary employee on a fast track, rules may be broken for him, but the employee always has to have a fallback position if management will not meet his demands.

As to the housing sale, some large companies will buy the house at a percentage of equity or market and sell it themselves if an employee is unable to sell it after a specific number of months. As a result, the employee isn't stuck with two mortgages, but they may not reap any profit on the sale.

Just wanted to add...I think it is daughter and son in law....I could be wrong though

I agree with rob...

But I really, really, really agree with Snidely.

(Oh Anne, I think you are right. Was scratching my head about SIL being a he.)

Thanks for your responses.

chisue, yes we thought perhaps it wouldn't be inappropriate, since his manager specifically contacted him to offer the position. As well, at the end of a conversation about a different matter last week, his manager mentioned something he'd be wanting SIL to do, as soon as he relocated. SIL apprised him that he was still going back and forth with HR, so nothing was settled yet. But he didn't go further, as he hadn't yet received the second offer, and was hopeful it would be one he could sign.

But now that 2 Letters of Offer have been extended, I thought perhaps he should get back to his manager and say "I know you must be wondering why a Letter of Offer hasn't yet been signed. I was hoping to seal the deal with HR , because I really want to accept the position. But I wanted to give you the courtesy of a call, to touch base and let you know exactly what difficulties I'm facing, with the terms of the offer..."

rob, I guess I didn't clarify, but in his two lengthy discussions with HR, my SIL did mention exactly what he would need in terms of salary and relocation package to accept an offer. He also provided stats regarding the huge disparity between costs in the two cities, because he knows they've never relocated someone from his small city, to the metropolitan one. But they still only came up 5K for salary in the second offer, and one extra month on the rental provision, while he's trying to sell his house.

Elmer, SIL and DD specifically asked for our opinion. None of us know if A: there's a protocol where you never go over HR and contact your manager directly, B: his manager is being apprised of the details of each offer or C: possibly he doesn't know why SIL hasn't yet signed to accept the position and might now be assuming SIL has changed his mind about wanting it. SIL knows that turning down a 'promotion' "can limit further advancement when future opportunities arise" which is exactly why he's in a frustrating predicament.

Anne, they won't disclose any sliding range for salary. They offered SIL what they called a significant increase (17% above his current salary) but the % increase is irrelevant to SIL. His current salary is lower, in comparison to the other regional managers across the country, because it's the region with the smallest industry and in the area of the country with the lowest cost of living.

(This was his first job after getting his engineering degree and he probably settled for less than he could have.) But considering the location, his current salary is not unreasonable. However, he has since obtained his Masters in engineering. As well, the budget for his region had never even been met, in the 30+ years of the Regional Manager, whose job he filled. In his less than 2 years there, SIL not only met the budget, but was informed he saved the company considerable money. (He disclosed the above to HR.)

So he's understandably very disappointed, feeling that they offered him a position that he really desires and he in turn got his wife on board for uprooting their family, but now it seems that he probably won't be able to accept it. SIL doesn't know if he should hope they'll come back with a third Letter of Offer that is acceptable, or is there a chance they'll say they've decided to rescind the offer (because maybe management thinks he's being too difficult or changed his mind.) Would you risk waiting, or just contact your manager personally, in a last ditch effort to get an offer you can accept?

I wish I could give more help. I left the corporate world 22 years ago for a more science oriented thing and that doesn't offer money!

Definitely go to the hiring manager and soon. Express his excitement and eagerness to move up in the company and note the pay discrepancy nationally between his salary and others on his level as well as the pay raise for the promotion is less than expected. If he doesn't know the fair pay scale for a certain position in a particular market, he should check Glassdoor.com or salary.com to get figures to use in negotiating and / or temper his expectations.

He should provide details to his manager on the difference in housing costs between his current location and the new location.

That said, he will need to be realistic that it is unlikely he will receive a pay raise large enough to cover the difference in housing costs between the two locations and will need to decide if the opportunity to rise in the company is worth the trade off in housing costs - and the trade off may not be worth it to your son-in-law and daughter. Given he is an engineer with a Masters degree he has a lot to offer an employer and may need to consider moving on to another company.

Fun2B, you wrote, "As to the housing sale, some large companies will buy the house at a percentage of equity or market and sell it themselves if an employee is unable to sell it after a specific number of months."

SIL asked about that option, but HR told him the company used to offer that in their relocation packages, but no longer does. So it seems he bears the risk of of having to get his house sold before the 4 months rental provision expires, in a market that sometimes takes more than 6 months to sell. He mentioned that he felt the company would have access to more resources to assist him in that area, than he does on their single income, but unfortunately, they offered nothing further during Friday's conversation.

Both you and heritage advised similarly, that SIL might simply have to decide whether the opportunity to rise in the company is worth the trade off in housing costs. He doesn't know if they'll come back to him with a better offer on Monday, or just advise him they can't do any better and to make a decision. I think the greater consensus here was to go ahead and contact his boss, rather than wait to hear back from HR, and give him the details to see if anything further can be done to enhance the offer.

If his boss says it's as good as it gets, I believe SIL will turn down the offer, as he's calculated that they'd be living very close to the line if their mortgage is almost doubled. But he'd certainly assure his manager that he really wants to be considered for another opportunity if the situation is different, because he's very disappointed at having to turn down this one. Thanks for all your responses.

Comments like this one don't give me a good feeling at all about the people concerned :

"This was his first job after getting his engineering degree and he probably settled for less than he could have."

This is according to whom? If him, why hasn't he done something about it? If these are your or your daughter's thoughts, I'd say both of you have no standing to offer it.

No matter how concerned and well-intentioned by-standers can be, without direct acquaintance of the several people involved and personal relevant experience with MANY similar situations and this company itself, any comments made can be unwittingly uninformed and risk doing more harm than good.

If this were me, I'd wish them well and back away.

I agree 100% with Elmer. Stay out of it! I really find it odd that you know so much about this situation. I prefer to keep my financial life between myself and my husband.

The couple has *asked* our OP to gather *information* to help them proceed. KT is a good place to ask what the forum knows about the protocol involved.

If I were this young man's boss, I'd wonder why he hasn't moved yet, and why he hasn't started implementing the work as directed. Why isn't it happening?

I've heard more than one manager tell his employees, "Don't surprise me." (Don't keep me in the dark about problems.)

Does this young man have his resume 'out there'? He could use some offers, to better judge the value of what his current employer is offering. Does his college offer placement assistance? From what I read, experienced engineers are a hot commodity!

Is he happy staying where he is, in a smaller market earning less than he think he should be? Does he have ambition and drive to improve his employment situation and a desire to move up in the company. How quickly can his financial situation improve if he does move?

He and his wife really have to have a heart-to-heart as to whether or not they are happy with the status quo or are they prepared to take the chance in moving.

Not everyone wants to or needs to move up the corporate ladder and that's what he needs to decide. Is this job offer a show of confidence in him, a show of "you have a future" with us or what.

I live in a city with extremely high housing prices and trying to get people to move here for company transfers and for attracting talent to high end jobs is proving very difficult.

It won't be just the house - the whole reality of life in the new city will almost certainly be more costly.

I'm really enthused about the promotion ... but I can't afford to take about a (25%?) actual decrease in income.

A box of cookies just went up 25%. I asked a store employee the other day whether he'd had anything like a 25% raise in recent years. He's a part-time guy - as are many in the workforce, these days.

That said ... as I've said here a few times ... one of my main tasks as a parent is to help, guide, chastise, encourage my child to become independent, including in her/his thought processes.

With the uncertainty of employment these days, modern workers need to be more analytical, resourceful, independent and flexible than when we were young.

ole joyful

"With the uncertainty of employment these days"

There are vast parts of the US where people with the right job preparation (be it training or education) have NO employment uncertainty at all.

You seem to repeat this sentiment frequently in your posts and I'm not sure why. It may be true in your part of Canada or in the neighboring area of the US you're near but it's not true where many are and hasn't been the case for a long time, give the past decade of strong growth.

Elmer, SIL himself has told us on several occasions that after he started the job, he realized he probably could have negotiated for a bit more, but he does not regret taking the position. It's given him almost 2 year's experience as a Regional Manager, and he knows much more in the business end, than he knew when he started. Despite feeling he probably could have started off higher, it is still a nice salary for that area. But realizing the struggle to now relocate, to an area with similar housing at twice the price, is a whole different ballgame.

chisue, SIL can't begin the work his manager was discussing with him, because that work is in the new position, across the country, (seems his manager just presumed he'd be able to take the new position and relocate.) But now that he's calculated that he can't make the move unless they're willing to up the salary, he will call his manager tomorrow, to let him know the details of HR's letter of offer. He plans to explain that despite still being very desirous of the position, unfortunately he has no other resources to be able to make this relocation affordable. It'll give his manager the courtesy of knowing that SIL won't be able to accept, (before receiving the news from HR)....unless by some miracle, his manager says "Don't send them your answer yet, let me just see if there's anything further I can do, first." If that happens SIL would be over the moon, but in reality, that would probably be a long shot.

sleeper, it's not 'odd' to any of us, as we're very close, and SIL values DH's assistance in calculating whether this move is even affordable, if SIL can't negotiate a higher salary. I'm sure they don't share their financial life readily, but DH was in finance (and does SIL's income tax) so they've come to us to help them crunch the numbers. That's the limit of our assistance and we are definitely 'staying out of it' as far as offering any opinions about accepting the offer and relocating, because it has to be totally their decision in the end.

It would be interesting to know if what they're offering is typical for that type of position in that area, or if they're trying to save money. Not all HR departments are as helpful as they should be.

I'm still scratching my head about this situation. It is odd.

If you and your husband have the knowledge and background to help them, why are you asking for ideas from anonymous people?

Our family is also very close. I do everyone's returns and provide a lot of financial and business advice (I'm a CPA), but none of them knows anything about anyone else (including my wife, who knows nothing about the kids' situations because there's no need for her to know). AND, when they ask me a question about something I feel unqualified to answer, I suggest they find and pay (if necessary) an expert to help them.

Sometimes the best advice is - "You need to find someone else to give you this advice". This might be one of those instances.

I would explain to sil that I'm just trying to help then give him this post

to read then back away.

lots of advice here.

we moved a lot for dh job. Company was very flexible, very helpful.

today I believe it's changed.

SIL needs to take ownership of his future.

He should not sit back and wait for HR to do anything. He should have an honest conversation with his boss about the predicament he feels he's in. HR is "hired help" in businesses - they are a staff group and may even be outsourced, depending on the company. If this HR is outsourced, they can't bend on their own. Go to the manager tomorrow and don't wait.

Everyone knows the worst case outcome....he doesn't get the promotion and probably won't be recommended for one in the future.

We made a very bad decision to move from St Louis to LA in 1981. It was a catastrophe for us financially. Husband should have looked for another job but he didn't see that option at that time. We stayed 3 yrs and had to move to a lower cost of housing area.

I think it is valuable to get total strangers opinions......I really do. We all can use other opinions........

I'm just now getting back to this... so if he said X and they offered Y, he's stuck with accepting Y or saying, While I appreciate the offer, this ONE isn't one I can accept. It's the walking away that always worries people. They thought of him before, they will again. Or he can ask again later on. It shows he's a good manager since he understands the consequences on down the line. P.S. I had to accept Y recently. Y was better than zilch!

Or.....just looking to see what else is out there. My oldest has used this to better position herself for a raise. Knowing your true value is important. We sometimes have a tendency to undervalue ourselves.

SIL needs to have a sit-down and bring the numbers to crunch. HR doesn't know the particulars, and the deal they offered isn't realistic.

They thought of him before, they will again.

Well, that may depend on the company culture or even the particular feelings of a higher up (higher than the manager who extended the offer -- he may be answering to someone himself).

Many years ago my brother was in a very similar situation -- was living in a place that he and his family loved, loved his position with the company, etc -- was offered a promotion that would have required a move to a larger, northeast city with high cost of living. He turned the offer down for all the above reasons. Apparently though, the company felt that indicated that he really wasn't a "company man" and not many months after he was informed that his services were no longer needed. He was given to understand that it was largely because he turned down the promotion.

OP here again, with the update

Firstly, Elmer, I asked opinions from 'anonymous' people, because DH's background can help them crunch numbers. But we were ignorant about any 'protocol' that might be breached, regarding involving his manager.

In any case, SIL did speak with his manager yesterday. His manager did not know the details and was wondering what was happening. SIL told him the terms of the offer, explaining his concerns. His manager did feel the starting salary offered to SIL probably couldn't be negotiated any higher.

But he addressed SIL's concern of the slow housing market, possibly meaning the risk of having to pay 2 mortgages simultaneously. He agreed that HR should be more flexible regarding the terms of relocation, as the company has never moved an employee from that city before. (That was the main issue SIL pushed with HR, but to no avail.)

SIL's manager mentioned again that he selected him, as he feels SIL is the best candidate for the job. He told him that he cannot personally override HR's offer, but can 'put a bug in their ear.' He urged SIL to not contact HR to turn down the offer, and to not back down on the negotiating.

SIL got a call from his manager this morning, asking if he'd heard from HR yet. SIL hadn't, but got a call within the hour. It seems the 'miracle' I assumed was a long shot, occurred. HR said they would extend a 'slight salary adjustment' and agree to pay his mortgage if his house isn't sold by the time the rental provision expires. SIL was happy with that, and will sign the Letter of Offer!

SIL has no idea what his manager may have said or done behind the scenes, (since he insisted he couldn't override HR's offer.) But the last call SIL got from HR was suddenly amenable to further negotiation.

I wouldn't have asked here, if SIL should speak to his manager, if he planned to accept the position and was just trying to sweeten the deal. I believe bosses don't normally get involved in the negotiation process. But because SIL was going to turn down a promotion that his manager had specifically offered to him, I wondered if this would fall outside standard 'protocol.' I'm glad I did ask for opinions here, as it seems SIL's manager 'putting a bug' in HR's ear, may have made the difference. DD and family are now looking forward to their move. Thank you for your input!

"we were ignorant about any 'protocol' that might be breached, regarding involving his manager"

Well, sorry to say but that's why it would have been better to not offer advice.

The things he was told by his company do not leave a positive impression. Well run companies have established transfer policies and benefits that cover moves from anywhere to anywhere. The fact that more was possible but not originally offered to him doesn't speak well for them.

I wish everyone only the best and hope for a good outcome.