Gorgeous, Jackie. I was hoping to get one from Rose Petals this year, but it's out of stock. Maybe next year....hope springs eternal.

I was only aware of Leonie Lamesch, which is not one of my favorites, but Eugenie is very pretty. I can't believe the profusion of buds (I suppose rain will do that).

Ingrid -- 'Eugenie Lamesch' is a possible identity for the found rose "Schmidt's Smooth Yellow". I think someone is doing some DNA testing to compare it to known parents and/or offspring of 'Eugenie Lamesch' to find out for sure.

:-)

~Christopher

Ingrid, Christopher is correct - we think this mystery roses is 'Eugenie Lamesch', which was hybridized by Peter Lambert (who married into the Lamesch family) a year before 'Leonie Lamesch' was produced. EL appears to be completely lost all over the world - I have communicated with folks at Sangerhausen who did research on all of the Lambert roses, and all they can find of EL is some written descriptions. FYI, it has that many buds in the Spring every year - even during our 5 year drought. Blooms continuously from March through Oct. I also grow 'Leonie Lamesch', and I like it, but it does not bloom anywhere as much as what we are calling "Schmidt's Smooth Yellow". I think it is a good choice for all of those people on here or the Rose forum who are constantly asking for a good blooming, medium sized bush which is truly THORNLESS (as opposed to "not very many thorns", this one has NONE, period.) to put next to their front door, or on the side of a path "where the little children play", etc.

Jackie

Has it been determined whether SSY is identical to the found polyantha "Belmont Yellow" ?

Yes, and it is not.

Jackie

Jackie -- Wish you could have seen SSY blooming its heart out, last weekend in the rain, in Sacramento.

OR blooming its heart out in non-rainy Camarillo!

And let me say -- I don't much CARE what it "really" is. It's a winner on its own terms.

I chatted with Malcolm Manners recently. The students who ran the DNA tests are getting ready to present their findings and publish their data. Until they do, the answer to the question about whether it is Eugenie or not likely won't be known. The other bug is, it's possible it still won't be answered because he didn't think they included De Candolle, the only Eugenie offspring available in the US, which Pamela Temple sent to be included. So, we still wait and hope they did make all the connections and run all the tests to give the full answers. It's a very nice, pretty rose, no matter what. But, like Leonie and virtually every other Aglaia offspring I've ever grown, the petals FRY in heat and high UV, which is why it didn't move with me.

Roseseek - Just so no one misinterprets you, I understand that the petals do not succeed in really hot areas. However, we get into the 90s frequently in the Summer here, and they are fine. Probably because we are 3 blocks from SF Bay, and there is a marine influence even when it is very hot? Oh, also, we are only 6 feet over sea level, so that probably keeps the UV down too. Is that correct?

Too bad about the students not including the one offspring rose - oh, well. As Jeri says, I think it is a wonderful rose no matter who it is (and I do think it is Eugenie Lamesch).

Jackie

Good morning Jackie! They fried (just like Leonie's) in Encino, in the Santa Monica Mountains. Driving, Google Maps shows that was approximately 13 miles from the Pacific, but "as the crow flies", it is about ten. That house was right at 1,000 feet in elevation. Here, driving, we're about nine miles from the Pacific, though much closer "as the crow flies" and right at 274 feet above sea level. Foliage and flowers that fry in direct sun here are much the same as they were there, even with temperatures up to thirty degrees lower on average. Your forecast for the week is to remain below 70F. Ours will reach into the mid 70s. Encino will hit 91 on several days. I think it's probably a combination of humidity and temperatures. The UV is actually rather high at the beach. You can sunburn much faster there as it doesn't feel as hot.

We won't know for sure whether Eugenie's offspring was used in the test until the results are published. It was sent and should have been received. I know it was included in the information request. Malcolm doesn't remember it being in their green houses (but there are MANY roses there, so that likely doesn't mean it isn't) and he hasn't seen the full documentation yet. So, we get to keep our fingers crossed a while longer. As he said, "Do you know how many graduate students it takes to screw in a light bulb? Only one, but it will take him 7 - 9 years."

OK, thanks Kim. Keeping my fingers crossed.

The blooms on my Leonie Lamesch don't "fry" here either, so perhaps it is just the magic of my garden which was established by the German ancestors - who knows?

Jackie

I think it's honestly the combination of your humidity, which is definitely higher than here or Encino, and cooler air (in comparison). You very likely also have a great deal more filtered light and partial shade from the much taller, denser tree and larger shrub population in comparison. I would expect "shade lovers" like hydrangea, camellia and azalea would tolerate much more direct sun there than they did in Encino, or even here, though there are examples of all three which flourish all over town here, often in many hours of direct sun. I would expect your conditions to be more like they were in Pacific Palisades. There, Red Bird azalea grew in all day sun, just a block from the ocean, up on the bluffs, lining a red brick drive in red brick planters and flowered nearly year round. Hydrangea, not the Endless Summer types, but traditional mop head hydrangea, flowered spring through fall and very often in direct sun. Ten miles inland, they would only perform in partial sun with a few hours of morning sun, in the canyon bottoms. Come up the hill a few blocks and they wouldn't tolerate any direct sun without shriveling. And, thank you! My fingers have been crossed for over two and a half years, when the test was set up!

Ah, I had forgotten to mention our many large trees & shrubs (the kind which are 10 ft by 15 ft by 10 ft), and very large old street trees. Yes, most of my garden, even the places where roses will grow, is in partial shade at least part of the day.

I always say that patience is a virtue, but mine is being tested along with the rose DNA!

Jackie

Amen! LOL!

Jeri - I am so glad it is doing so well for you! Also the great pics - I got so tired of describing the blunted tops of the buds, and the red color on the tops - I think everyone thought it must be some sort of disease!

Jackie

They're definitely unusual -- so I'm glad I was able to capture that.

I'm popping onto this older thread rather than starting another one, in the hopes that those who are growing the rose will see it. Before you read the text following them, tell me which of the two pics below from HMF is "Schmidt's Smooth Yellow".

Have any of you compared this rose to George Elger, seed-parent of Sunshine? I think I mentioned this before to Kim, but I can't remember. One caveat is that there are three pics of GE on HMF which I think are misidentified. The pics from Australia seem to match old scanned pics of GE, whereas those three pics showing peachy-apricot roses don't.

I bring this up because old images of Eugenie Lamesch show prickles. While there is no mention of GE being prickle-free, I can't seem to see any on the few pics on HMF. I posted this there as well, hoping one of the Australians growing GE could offer information. While we can't easily get GE from Australia, we do have 'Sunshine' here to test for maternity.

:-)

~Christopher

Good suggestion, Christopher. Have you encountered any information about George having been commercially available in the US or having been grown in US gardens? Eugenie was listed in gardens and commercially available in the US prior to WWII.

One of the references for GE is Roses in the Little Garden (1926) by Glendon A. Stephens, from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Another is Walsh's Handbook of Roses (1917) by Michael H. Walsh from Wood's Hole, Massachusetts. So we know it was on the east coast, at least.

:-)

~Christopher

It's scorching hot out, so I am NOT going downstairs. Does Schmidt's Smooth Yellow have prickles?

Mind -- I think it's a terrific rose -- and I don't much care what it "really" is.

I asked on HMF, and someone replied about finding out in November.

:-)

Oh, shoot. I can answer before November!

You can find a prickle on Schmidt's every once in a while, but usually it's as smooth as they come. That was one of the odd things about the illustration of Eugenie on the cigarette cards. In the References for Eugenie, Die Gartenwelt (1902) states, " The branches have few strong prickles and glossy green foliage."

Oh, whoops -- I misread that. Someone in Australia is going to see 'George Elger' in November and will check for prickles.

:-)

~Christopher

BTW, of the two pics I posted, the first is 'George Elger', and the second is "Schmidt's Smooth Yellow".

:-)

~Christopher

Well, I couldn't rule it out . . .

Thanks so much, Christopher! I love this rose partly because of the mystery. I agree that the peachy colored photos on HMF re George Elger are definitely NOT SSY - it has only yellow buds (tipped in a sort of red) which open to bright yellow blooms, which fade to white. I also don't recognize it in the 1957 photo, but that could be because of the color photography then made the color much too orange.

When I was communicating with Sangerhausen with a man who was researching Peter Lambert roses, he said they had no record of any actual plants existing of Eugenie Lamesch, but they did have a record written by Lambert describing it as having only a few prickles (they translated it as "spines") on the lower old growth, but not on the rest of the plant. Interestingly, that is exactly what my Leonie Lamesch has - a few and far apart large prickles, but only on the bottom and older 1/3 of the plant. I just ran out and checked my three bushes of SSY I have growing now in my garden, and NONE of them, including the oldest one, have any prickles at all, including on the lower part of the oldest canes. Hmm...I agree with Jeri, can't rule out George Elger.

So, does anyone anywhere offer George Elger in commerce? It would be too ironic if the mystery rose I found ended up being one of TWO "lost roses"!

Jackie

I obviously forgot that George Elger is evidently growing in Australia - or a rose they THINK is George Elder, hee, hee - rose mysteries are like time travel science fiction stories - they can make your head ache! (but it is fun) -

Jackie

Margaret Furness posted a new picture of her 'George Elger' -- showing some details of stem, foliage, and hips.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.309646

:-)

~Christopher

Oh, dear. I looked at all of the pics of George Elger on HMF again. ALL of the ones posted from Australia by Margaret Furness look like SSY, and NONE of the other photos from elsewhere do.

Here are a couple of pics of hips from my SSY. They turn orange, but then as you can see, one pic has really old ones on the bush which have turned brownish green. I am too ignorant to have an opinion about how hips turn colors. In Margaret's pic they are green.

The leaves in all of the pics Margaret posted as George Elger do look like those on SSY. Also, she has posted pics of buds which have the same flat blunted tops, and red coloring on the top as those of SSY (see below).

Do the almost white blown blooms look the same to you? They do to me.

All of the pics below are from the oldest SSY in my garden:

dark orange hips on the bush

buds

very old hips on bush

Are we any closer to a decision on the identity of this rose. It's certainly very beautiful. I wonder how hardy it is?

-Chris

Whatever DNA tests were finally run, WERE fun several years ago. Those who ran the tests have the right to have their work published and from what I have been told, that is where is rests. There are some results, ostensibly, but what they are, no one has stated....yet. Patience is NOT one of my favorite traits....

I always say that patience is a virtue, but I do that to remind myself, as I have very little of it.

Update - I recall getting an email (I think from Margaret F.) in Australia a couple of months ago (which I cannot find), and she said that George Elger was not blooming, and was not doing well. I asked why, and she said that it had been 105 degrees F there for weeks and weeks without stopping! I hope we do not lose the only plant of GE we have been able to find so far!

Jackie