Do you have any photos of the sub-floor prior to them gluing and installing the floor? I'm curious to see what they felt was sufficient enough to glue an engineered floor on without doing any type of prep work. Very rarely do we come across a sub-floor that does not need any prep work prior to installation.

Now does the floor have movement when you walk on it? Do you hear that "popping" noise when you step on certain spots?

Also, in the kitchen area where you hear the popping noise, are you sure that moisture has not gotten under the boards?

I agree with Unique Wood Floors in that getting an inspection may give you some leverage with your contractor.

I'm not happy to hear about "didn't need any prep" over concrete. Concrete slabs are NOT ready for flooring. The only floors that a slab is "ready for" is carpet. Why? because carpet can wrap around a telephone pole. Rigid, solid hardwood cannot.

The "right amount" of glue is a nice statement...my question becomes did they use the RIGHT GLUE? How about moisture testing? And then the glue selected for the moisture levels DISCOVERED by the testing?

I think you are running very close to the 1 year labor warranty that most guys offer. Unique Floors has offered a professional, non-biased solution = NWFA Certified Flooring inspector. Follow the link provided by Unique. You will then type in your zip to find a list of local guys/gals.

While you wait for things to happen, you will want to check your home's Relative Humidity (RH). A hardwood floor (and the glue associated with it) likest to see humidity at 40%-60%. If you do not know how to measure your RH, that's OK. That's what Home Depot is for. For $30 you can purchase a hygrometer (that's what it is called...copy and paste that name and drop it into the HD website...it will give you want you need to find).

As soon as you can SAFELY SAY the RH levels are FINE...then you can start with the Inspector. Better purchase the $30 tool before you dial a $500 professional inspector (might be more...might be less).

Thanks for everyone's response. I did look for a NWFA certified inspector, and really only one responded. I was taken aback by his $650 fee to do the inspection. Just seems very expensive for a report that doesn't necessarily do anything beyond providing an expert opinion on the situation. The floor installer is extremely defensive and would view this as another sign of me not trusting his professionalism. What else could I do with this report?

I don't want to say that he didn't do any prep. They did use a sanding machine over the entire floor to smooth things out. What I meant was that he didn't use any leveling compound on the floor, because according to him, "your floors are very level". They used Fortane One glue (http://www.fortane.com/products/fortane-one/). It is the same glue offered by one of the local floor stores (I think he does work for them).

The floors do pop when you step on certain spots in the kitchen, but I don't really feel movement. But again, there are a considerable number of spots that are simply hollow sounding.

I'm pretty confident they didn't take moisture readings. Our 18 year old house currently has 43% humidity, but it definitely dips in the 20's during the summer, when it was installed.

Ok....that's a bit more information - "....[Relative Humidity] currently has 43% humidity, but definitely dips in [to] the 20's during the summer when it was installed."

Good. We've just solved 90% of the problem - lack of humidity control in the home environment. Excellent. Put your $650 inspection fee back into your pocket (and yes, that is a normal amount for a full flooring inspection with a report that is good enough to go to COURT). We probably don't need to have this inspected.

Your floor was laid in the PUFFIEST time of the year - summer time! The floor was fat, and happy and puffy and full of humidity and was laid in APPROPRIATE humidity levels! Yes. The "43% RH" is what the home should be maintained all year round.

So. It is happy for months and months....then the heat is turned on and the house (and floor) start to DRY OUT. Everything SHRINKS...Doors shrink, cupboards shrink, and wood floors shrink. And when a GLUE DOWN hardwood floor SHRINKS it stresses the glue - the bond that keeps it "down". And now we start hearing noises.

The "hollow" sounds are definitely from voids in the subfloor. Little dips in the concrete that probably needed a bit more attention then just giving it a grind (sanding/grinding REMOVES material....leveling compounds ADD material).

Without having seen the original concrete, the acclimation process or the install, I would guess we have two problems here:

1. Hollow sounding areas that are probably due to lack of prep (no leveler used)

2. Cracking sounds in the floor probably due to unstable humidity (20% humidity is 25% TOO LOW for wood)

I would look into adding a whole home humidifier to the HVAC system (in the next few months if you would please) to get the humidity UP in winter. The humidity in summer is PERFECT for hardwood...excellent. Now you just need to add a SCHWACK of humidity in the winter and you are all set.

And inspector probably won't help you because a sizeable amount of this concern can be laid at the feet of the "living environment" = the house itself. Good luck. Please contact your Heating/Cooling specialists that service your furnace. They will give you estimates as to how much a whole home humidity unit will cost.

Please do this quickly. If wood is left dry for too long, it does serious damage....so much damage that these floors might not make it 15 years let alone "life time".

I guess I'm a little confused by your response. When the floors were installed last year in the summer, humidity levels were in the 20-30% range. It gets hot here (90-100 degress sometimes), and it was probably around this temp when the floor were installed. So doesn't this mean humidity levels weren't good? Also, the floors have had the hollow sounds since day 1 as well as the popping. The popping is worse/more obvious some weeks compared to others, which I assume must be based on the humidity levels.

Besides doing a whole house humidifier, what about resolving the issues with the floors? Should I be content with popping and hollow sounds? Should I expect the installer to do something about this (he's agreed to come out one more time to drill holes and do injections). But again, somehow we're being made out to be the bad guys, so I'm not sure how to deal with this.

Thanks.

Sorry, I misread the statement. The humidity in SUMMER was 20% (too low) and the humidity NOW is 43% (perfect)??? That's a bit odd. Usually it is the reverse (winter is dry and and summer is often humid). So we still have an issue with maintaining humidity, it is just the reverse of what I described above.

Again - HOLLOW sound is from lack of preparation where "low spots" in the concrete could have/should have been filled. So your summer humidity levels are low (and the floors were installed during the driest time of the year) and now the floors are sitting in "perfect" conditions (43% humidity).

The other issue is the adhesive use and coverage rate for the slab you have. The COVERAGE rate is how much glue is used to get the floor to stick. Too little and the floor won't GRAB the concrete. This is where there *MIGHT be another issue with the installation.

If you feel you want to have the installer pull up a plank to see how much COVERAGE there was during the initial install, then you are within your rights to ask for a piece or two be lifted (do this at an edge so that it is easier to see). If you do this, make SURE you have enough planks on hand to repair the areas....it is possible the planks will be damaged in the process.

The installation directions for the glue indicate the planks MUST be 90% covered in glue (the installer is supposed to check this periodically). That's what you are looking for = 90% of the plank COVERED in glue.

http://www.royaladhesives.com/Files/Fortane/Fortane_One-TDS_08222016Rev1.pdf

Then there is ONE MORE thing to check - the instructions for the hardwood floor you purchased. The floor will have installation instructions. So long as "glue down" is allowed as an installation format (most engineered are allowed to be glued....but not all) then we can eliminate the wood itself as the problem (ie. wrong product installed in the wrong way).

Good luck. Have the installer check the GLUE coverage...(a few planks can be pulled at the wall edge to see how much coverage the back of the planks have). And check the installation for the HARDWOOD just to make sure the glue down option is listed.

If all of it checks out, then the humidity control is going to be the only other thing you can do for your floor (other than rip it out and start again).

Hello @mandms7!

I knew how frustrating it can be to find out the newly installed floor turned wrong. Because we just found that a small area of glued engineered floor installed this past winter is popping up.

The planks seems to be pushed against each other, so the area looks like waves. We also went with glued floor on concrete slabs but my research finds this combination often caused popping.

Have you found a solution for your home?

@ x x Could you show us pictures of your floors? How old is your concrete slab? Are the EDGES of the planks sitting HIGHER than the centres (cupping) or are the centres sitting HIGHER than the edges (crowning)?

The direction of the "wave" will tell you where the MOISTURE is coming from. Yes. Moisture. If you have a single area that is cupping/crowning, then we can look to a localized event (like a leak).

If the EDGES of the planks are HIGHER than the centres, as in cupping, then the moisture is BELOW the wood. If you think of the middle of the plank (the centre) as an "arrow head", it will POINT YOU in the direction of the moisture. If the planks are cupping, then the arrowhead is pointing DOWN (moisture from below). If the planks are crowning then the arrowhead is pointing UP (moisture from above/in the air/topical moisture sitting on the wood like a leaky roof dripping onto the floor).

Sigh. Now the hard question: Do you have in-slab water pipes? If so, it is possible you have a pipe that has sprung a leak. I would have this investigated as soon as possible.

I wasn't entirely sure whether the floor is cupping or crowing as I did research online. Each plank looks fine but they are just not entirely "stayed" on the subfloor. Here is a picture that shows how planks are uneven:

Your floor is buckling. Does it have expansion gap? Floated or glued down?

Oh dear. That isn't EITHER issue. That is buckling. This happens when expansion gaps are missing or not enough space given at walls. The change of dimension of the wood is what causes this. The wood gets FATTER when in the summer (increase in humidity - especially if the house has uncontrolled humidity). The planks get WIDER and push out towards the edges of the room. They hit a wall and begin this type of buckling.

You will need to do TWO things:

1. Check to see what your humidity is doing and find a way to control it - quickly

2. Call the installer back to report this issue. If the expansion gaps are missing or inadequate, it is an "inappropriate install" and is considered "installer error".

While you wait for the installer to call you back (this is the busiest time in their year....so this could take a bit of time to get a response), you will need to monitor the humidity (it would help if you knew the interior humidity when these were INSTALLED) and then get it under control.

Right now, if this is a glue down hardwood, the bond of the glue has been broken and the planks need to be reinstalled. To do this properly the original installer will need to trim back the planks on the edge of the room to get these to sit down properly. That is the installer's responsibility. That's why there is normally a 1 year warranty on labour/installation given by the better professionals (check your contract to see if that is the case).

As the homeowner, you are responsible for the home and the interior environment. Even a slight change in humidity from winter "dry air" to summer "wet air" can cause issues just like this - especially if the expansion gap was NOT adequate. The solution to this will take both you and the installer working together.

Please keep us updated.

Hi

had the same issue and wanted to know what was the resolution you applied in those areas and whether the solution was persistent.

tnx

Hi,

We ended up having a couple people come out over the last several years, including as recent as last year, to fill the hollow points. Both people have used the DriTac Wood Floor Repair Kit to do this. Its not the greatest solution, since they are drilling holes in your flooring to fill the void. They then fill the void with some type of filler, but you can still see where it was done. But I guess its better than tearing up your floor.

The spots that they filled seem to be holding up, but I do question if the glue will eventually break down, since it is definitely not the same what they use to adhere the floors to the concrete.

To this day we still have numerous other spots that are hollow. We have an 8-year old, and he plays on the floor with Matchbox cars and marbles, and its very obvious where these hollow spots are.

I'm really unhappy with the flooring company we used. Still can't believe he tried to tell me that this was normal and that I'm too picky.

Thank you for your last post. seems we share the same experience. I ordered the DritaC stuff and hopes for the best. I believe the Glue will not detach for you. There are better fillers at the end who can look better . How much did it cover from the annoying situation? I have several large boards where this happens (like 7)

i hope I can DIY it

BTW did anyone ever pointed to the root of why this was happening?
I do get new areas from time to time that used to be ok before. I still believe that filling the voids is better then leaving this as is.

usually what you feel is worse then what you see so will be a priority for me to fix