Gardening is my means of stress relief, and while I'm just as scared, frustrated, and disgusted as a lot of people, it's how I get away from all of this B.S. Take it somewhere else please.

I agree with James. "Take it somewhere else please."

There is a Hot Topic forum for just this type of thread. I love the Antique Rose Forum and have for years; lets keep it uplifting and a place to come to to enjoy each other, roses and learning about the plants we love.

Nobody is making you read this thread. Its always optional.

I understand that Paul and assumed, with understanding, a reply would come back as such. It's just that political topics are in our face every day and it's just a nice comfort to read our garden forums that have specific topics we are interested in with the addition of OT Forums/Hot Topics for topics that stray on GW. It's a choice to read an OT thread and I chose to but the feeling in gives me will prompt me to just continue reading about the roses. It was a humble request since there is a Forum on GW for this type of subject.

As thread starter, it would be wrong of me not to take on board what you are saying and I thank you for your comments, however I did start off with an apology and an opportunity to ignore or flag, if anyone so wished...

I also thought to continue with the topic here as I felt amongst 'friends' rather than amongst 'hostiles' that one would find in what is a kind of no man's land, that is Hot Topics, and if I am to be found dead in the future - not a far flung possibility considering certain aforementioned aggressors at large today - I'd rather be amongst Antique Roses.... wouldn't you?...

Very best wishes....

Good for you, Paul. I fully agree. No one is MAKING anyone read this thread. And I, for one, am not "focusing on anger, hatred, and fear". I am focusing on the hope that we can-and WILL- prevent this situation from continuing.

I understand Patty. I suggest perhaps someone should contact GW/Houzz and request that the thread be moved to the OT forum if its going to continue being an irritant.

I simply wanted to express the idea that if a topic is already published in a sub-section of the forum, no matter how much it should have gone elsewhere, I always have the choice to simply not look at it. In fact, I typically look at less than 10% of any of the GW topics I am exposed to.

Lastly, I think political discussions have saturated most discussion groups to some extent, and I think that is a kind of litmus test for how sore and raw many people feel in the current circumstances. Believe me, I have plenty of days when I cannot stand to look at current events and - far worse - the fever pitch flow of commentary and discussion people are engaging in, and a lot of what I've seen (far more on Facebook than GW) is downright toxic. And so, believing I am the only one responsible for filtering my environment in order to sustain my mental health, I do just that: I filter aggressively. Some days I feel more able to swim in the political waters without feeling at risk of drowning (or being eaten, since I am using the metaphor) and other days I just can't stand to read one more ranting loony fest of opinions posted by "keyboard warriors" and the like. All in all, I think GW has been remarkably polite in these discussions and I think that reflects well on the community here.

I meant no offense in what I said previously, Patty. I agree that lately there have been too many "OT" threads leaking into areas they don't quite belong. But the fact that it is happening suggests how personal, and how deeply the current affairs are affecting us. I would rather we continue talking about how we perceive this peculiar road we are all on, rather than simply hiding from the information. We have an opportunity to help each other make sense of what we see, and I think more than ever before in my lifetime, that is very important. But like you, there are days I just don't feel I can absorb One More Piece of Bad News.

Let me advise the folks who ask writers in this topic box to "take it elsewhere, please" there is an option to avoid disturbance or offense: Avoid clicking on the topic, "Okay, I'm sorry, I've got to say it." Thank you.

Both of the above comments are wise and pertinent. I am a member of THIS forum, THIS social-media group or community, or whatever they are called; I'm not a member of "Hot Topics". I think I do have a right to discuss things with other members of MY community. I certainly don't read every post! " I am the only one responsible for filtering my environment in order to sustain my mental health, ",says Paul, and he's 1000% right.

Denying feelings of anger and fear is every bit as bad as indulging and cultivating them. Pretending that everything's ok when it obviously is NOT is a very bad idea,and, no,buying ourselves a new rose is not going to help in the long run! One thing that IS helping me a lot in dealing with fear is "Cyber Resistance". Since I can't go to marches (being here in Italy) I sign every petition I can to resist this awful political trend,and share them on Facebook and in e-mails. Here's a couple addresses that I hope some of you may find helpful:

https://act.credoaction.com/ https://refusefascism.org/

Another thing: are any of you on Facebook?

I find the daily mailing I get from The Atlantic a fine source of calm and reasoned writing about current topics. The Nation is good, too. But my favorite place to go is the Daily Kos for their many diaries and threads of discussion. Eventually, I think I'll probably be the last person on earth to not have a Facebook account, but I certainly sign many petitions on a daily basis. I persist. Diane

Bart, I sign a lot of petitions too, mainly with change.org, but will respond to Credo.

I saw this recently - apologies if it was on here

MLK's daughter's advice

1. Use his name sparingly so as not to detract from the issues. I believe that everyone, regardless of their beliefs, deserves the dignity of being called by their name. However, this is a strategic tactic. While we are so focused on him we are prone to neglect the questionable policies that threaten freedom, justice and fairness advanced by the administration.

2. Remember this is a regime and he's not acting alone;

3. Do not argue with those who support him and his policies--it doesn't work;

4. Focus on his policies, not his appearance and mental state;

5. Keep your message positive; those who oppose peace and justice want the country to be angry and fearful because this is the soil from which their darkest policies will grow;

6. No more helpless/hopeless talk;

7. Support artists and the arts;

8. Be careful not to spread fake news. Check it;

9. Take care of yourselves; and

10. Resist!

Keep demonstrations peaceful. In the words of John Lennon, "When it gets down to having to use violence, then you are playing the system’s game. The establishment will irritate you - pull your beard, flick your face - to make you fight! Because once they’ve got you violent, then they know how to handle you. The only thing they don’t know how to handle is non-violence and humor."

When you post or talk about him, don't assign his actions to him, assign them to "The Republican Administration," or "The Republicans." This will have several effects: the Republican legislators will either have to take responsibility for their association with him or stand up for what some of them don't like; he will not get the focus of attention he craves; Republican representatives will become very concerned about their re-elections.

Trish

Amen!

I do post on Hot Topics and I sign petitions right and left because, once you're on anyone's radar by making contributions to a cause, your e-mail will be filled with petitions. Mine are mostly about animals and the environment because I give sparingly to political institutions I don't know much about. For me posting here is different than posting on Hot Topics because I think of you all as friends who are united by a love of roses and nature and the environment, no matter how we may differ politically. When we are very afraid and worried I'm glad that we can express ourselves here, even knowing that we won't all agree. When I post about roses I pretty well forget who said what here and concentrate on our favorite subject, but I would hate to shut down anyone here who wants to share deeply felt concerns. As stated, the title will warn you and give you the option to join or pass by.

Recently, I tossed out my Facebook app. I left one final message that the post election vitriol between the two sides was enough for me. I can understand the fear. What I don't understand is what has happened that we as a society can be so hatefull toward one another. Please understand I'm not saying that is the case in this forum as folks seem to be respectful of each other's opinion; just in the Facebook and other social media it is not the case.

Thank you so much for this list of advice! I hope it's OK if I put it up on my Fbook page. MLK is Martin Luther King,right?

oh, and also...THANK YOU ALL WHO ARE HELPING IN THE RESISTANCE!!!!!!!!!!!

bart, yes to MLK, and to putting it on your page - not my words......wish I was that wise!

At one week after the inauguration I quit watching the news, reading any political posts on facebook, and in general turning a blind eye to the whole mess. I couldn't take it anymore. Yes, I know I sound like the ostrich with it's head in the sand but I have Atrial Fibrillation and I had 4 severe attacks in 7 days. Normally I don't have that many in a month. I had to reduce my stress levels ASAP!

I'm still making plans for the future and hoping for the best. I try to have great faith in the human species in general. But in the mean time I'm taking it just one day at a time and trying to stay calm and just do MY best to keep doing the right thing and stay sane. If we each do that maybe we can make a difference.

Seil, you are quite right to avoid since you have this specific health situation. What's more, one of the points of the "MLK Heritage" list is "take care of yourself". Others are "keep your message positive" "no helpless/hopeless talk" "support art and artists". Nothing is to be accomplished by brooding and stressing-all sterile. Trish, I did post it and plan to e-mail it to friends and family as well.

seil, please do take care of yourself. Nothing is more important than your health, and we need you here. Stuff will happen whether we pay attention or not, but only you can take care of you.

The best way of connecting people is communicating and so I have decided to. My vote in the election was based on the following principles:

I will not not vote. This was a decision made many decades ago. Even if I must choose the lesser of two evils, I have improved the outcome.

I will not vote for someone who has no chance of winning. Doing so has the same effect as not voting.

What a person does is far more important than what they say. When Hillary Clinton set up her Email server, she deliberately placed her lust for power ahead of the lives and identities of American patriots. Who, although not members of an entitled "protected" class, are entitled to protection. Therefore, wait to see what Trump actually does. And wait even longer to see the effect. Resist first and find out later and you may be resisting something you want.

Beware of false prophets. The gift of prophecy is exceedingly rare. That is a good thing. The lives of the prophets I am aware of were difficult. Hillary has made her second failed "inevitable" run for the presidency. The multitudinous predictors of the Democrat sweep of the presidency, the Senate and possibly the House continue to predict (somewhat understandably as it is their livelihood) and continue to be believed. The process brings to mind "World Enders" who, on the day after the predicted world extinction, dazedly pick themselves up and follow the same leader who simply sets a new date.

Individuals in any group differ.The best solution to this so far has been Majority rule with due provision made for minority rights. This is not the same as politicians atomizing American citizens into the smallest groups possible, claiming their election to be the citizens' only hope of protection and entitlement with the sole aim of gaining office. We are all Americans. Our first loyalties are to God our families and our country.

Watch very closely what your representatives are doing. I believe Catspaw said this in regard to Trump. It is excellent advice and it is our patriotic duty. We should all pay close attention at all times to the extent we are able no matter who is in office.

I do not assume that all those coming to different conclusions than I are violent destructive rioters just because a few are. I appreciate when others do not assume that I am an uneducated racist bigot just because a few are who have come to the same conclusions I have.

I live in continued amazement that anyone's first loyalty is to God...

That means you should spend the rest of your life in a permanent state of amazement - 100s of millions (no, I think it is probably actually billions) of people on this planet feel that way. I am not one of them, but neither do I feel it necessary to comment on other people's religious beliefs.

Jackie

Living in the reality based universe can be difficult.

Jackie,... I would have given Americans more credit...

...so billions of religious people around the world, put God before their families...?

I think I'm ready for TRAPPIST-1...

Cathz6, with all due respect, please don't ask us to "wait and see what Trump does". He has started doing things, and in the opinion of many of us, none of those things are good. Buford, again, with all due respect, please don't tell us "everything will work out". Maybe it will for you, but for, say, Syrian refugees, its not looking so good. For Muslims, particularly those from countries that don't happen to have business connections with Trump, not looking so good. For the environment, not looking so good. Transgender students, not looking so good. People who stand to lose their health insurance, not looking so good. (Also people who might get laid off, and thus lose their employer insurance, particularly with pre-existing conditions, not looking good.) The arts, not looking so good. I could go on. Don't worry that those of us who oppose Trump will make ourselves sick; most of us are supporting each other and working hard to do positive things, such as protesting, contacting our representatives, volunteering, etc. In fact, I read a lovely thing that one of my FB friends, a musician too, posted. It was about how we who resist Trump should remember what its like to sing in chorus. Sometimes when your section has to hold a really long note, well, you have to breathe! And you do, and all the other singers in your section wait til you are done before they take a breath! Its called staggered breathing, and it works beautifully. So we all get to take a break from this sometimes, knowing our fellow lefties will cover for us, just as we will for them.

Dear cathz6, are you aware current administration folks use private servers and usual phones for tweeting, placing their lust for power ahead of the lives and identities of American patriots? Yes, that's right just like she who profanely used private servers and cell phones. But, gosh darn it, your conclusions remain pure.

If you look at cathz6's post again, what she actually said was: "Our first loyalties are to God our families and our country". Note the (s) on "loyalties" - this implied to me she meant all three things together, not "in that order".

In this country, it is generally considered very bad manners to comment negatively on someone else's religious beliefs (unless, of course, those beliefs include advocating blowing up people). I do think we have a different history, and therefor attitudes, about religion than many people in the UK or the EU do. We were not involved in religious wars, and many of the first settlers here came in order to practice their religion outside of countries where there were government mandated religions at that time, which includes the UK. That is why our Constitution forbids the "establishment" of any religion by the government.

Unfortunately, very recently an extreme atheist movement has arisen here, which is trying to stamp out religions - luckily the right to practice religion is protected in our Constitution. IMO nothing in cathz6's post is disrespectful of others, and I think she deserves our thanks for putting her thoughts in such a cogent and kind way.

Jackie

Cath wrote...''We are all Americans. Our first loyalties are to God....'' etc...

She spoke for you Jackie, and all other Americans on this forum and about 250 million others, not the billions in the rest of the world, and certainly not for me, I'm non-American and just an observer.

I'm surprised - and that's putting it mildly - that you don't see fit to challenge it, but to defend it. There's a way of putting these things I think, so that it doesn't sound fundamentalist...

I too perceive that "Cathz" was speaking for everyone in stating "We are all Americans. Our first loyalties are to God our families and our country."

It is my experience that many "Christians" think they speak for everyone and that they have the only answer and it's the right one. Cathz, you do not speak for me in this matter and I am offended every time someone acts as though they do. That is not a criticism of Cathz beliefs, it is sticking up for my right to label myself as I see fit and remain true to my self.

I believe Marlorena has every right to be more than mildly surprised by this fundamentalist language and sweeping statements. Besides, religion has no place in politics; our Founding Fathers said it themselves, in case you had forgotten.

“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
—John Adams

For the record:

I am not a fundamentalist.

I speak for myself.

The parade of horribles presented by Frances in NJ were predictions, not fact.

No one has been proven to anywhere approach the scope and duration of Hillary Clinton's abuse of Email service. Not even close.

Marlorena, it is quite simple really, if a category does not apply to you, that is, if you do not believe in God or do not have a family, advance to the next category. And, yes, Jackie is right. God and family in my mind are inextricably intertwined.

If the only accurate criticism you can make of what I have written in a political discussion is that I am not an atheist. I have done well.

Cath

I am presuming that cathz was talking within the context of the latest Presidential election, which was indeed held among Americans. Her comments, if you read her post, are directed at Americans who have differing opinions about our current President. I thought they were calm, thoughtful, and not at all snarky or rude. Attacking her for making what appeared to me to be a friendly statement which included the concepts of God, family, and country (which, by the way, was a very common way for politicians to speak all over America until just recently, and is still in areas outside of the urban coasts) is just silly, IMO.

When I spoke about billions of people, of course I was talking about the people all over the world who practice one religion or another.

Jackie

Paul, when I wrote about loyalties, I was thinking of those I listed in specific contrast to political parties. If your loyalties are not mine I would truly be interested to know what they are. I do not wish to put you on the spot and I certainly will not argue with you about them. This is the dialog that I had hoped to create.

Cath

My loyalties are to truth, justice and fair and equal treatment of all people. I also believe in humane treatment of animals and preservation of our planet's health. I believe it is our responsibility to speak out when these values are ignored.

Cath, thank you for joining the discussion. You are clearly a kind and thoughtful person.

The Dalai Lama once said "My religion is kindness". I am not religious, but I do value kindness above all else - to people and to animals. And I support by protest, and donate, to causes that promote these values.

Trish

The Trump/Pence regime is a Fascist regime,with access to nuclear weapons. Apparently some people just do not "get" that.

If you will allow me, I will echo Sheila's remarks and say "My loyalties are to truth, justice and fair and equal treatment of all people." I would add to that: respect for all Life and a healthy idea of Responsible, Informed Stewardship of Our Home Planet.

That said, I have absolutely zero interest in engaging in dialog about Christianity. Ive seen more evil perpetrated by Man, informed by distorted perceptions of "Christianity" than I care to acknowledge. Somehow I doubt that engaging me in dialog on the subject is going to prove constructive or fruitful for you.

I have a family member that I am very close to that is very fond of Trump and thinks he was elected because he is finally saying all the things Americans have wanted to say for eight years. She has become very hateful about race and other religions and her demeanor has changed drastically since he has taken office. She has said things that are very shocking and hurtful to hear. She only watches one news source and takes everything that is said for face value. She does not challenge her beliefs or question anything she is told from this news source.

The last time we saw each other, we got into a disagreement because I couldn't bite my tongue at some of the things that she said and I left with a heavy heart and cried the entire drive home. It has been hard for me to reach out to her since and so I haven't. This has weighed heavily on what is already a heavy heart.

It is going to be a very long four years. My husband and I have been married four years in April and it is hard to imagine the same amount of time will pass with this man as president. I am going to rely on my gardening a little more to bring me happiness and can't wait for spring so I have something to focus on. Meanwhile, during the winter months, I've purchased a dozen orchids and several other houseplants to keep my mind off things for a little while.

cath, this is a statement that puzzles me very much.

"When Hillary Clinton set up her Email server, she deliberately placed
her lust for power ahead of the lives and identities of American
patriots. Who, although not members of an entitled "protected" class,
are entitled to protection."

She used a private server because the State server was cumbersome, unreliable and a pain to use. Nothing more, nothing else. Colin Powell did the same. It was not hacked, while State servers were hacked. The present administration are all using private servers and, in the case of Trump, an outdated phone that can be easily hacked and that he refuses to give up even though it is a real danger for the American people every time he uses it. What does her perceived "lust for power" have to do with using a private server? How did she compromise the lives and identities of American patriots? She wasn't running a spy ring with agents who would be in danger. If she had been using the State server that had been hacked it would have been so much worse. Your last sentence is also puzzling, since her e-mails were mostly between her and other high-level people. What members of a non-protected class was she endangering?

I'm sincerely confused as to what you meant by this statement. If that is the basis of your antipathy towards her, it seems a very odd one. She was investigated numerous times and found to be not guilty of anything more than the carelessness that is no worse that what any number of the present administration are freely and openly doing. I simply don't get it.

The email server scandal was a manufactured diversion and what was passed as "truth" during the election cycle was false. Patently false. Hillary Clinton did the very same thing that most insightful politicians do or have done. I found this episode of This American Life instructional:

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/601/master-of-her-domain-name

I discussed the so-called "email server scandal" with many acquaintances, and lots of people I spoke with decided to believe the "scandal" because the news told them to. They never once questioned the nature of the issue or sought to find out what it means for a politician to engage the use of a private email server, they simply went with the notion that somehow it indicated devious, malicious intent.

I fully agree with Paul. To be honest, to bring up the Divinity in this context seems to me to be playing a little fast-and-loose with the 4th Commandment ,but maybe that's just me. And I agree with Ingrid, too. Besides, I don't understand how the whole thing about Russia intervening to get the Republican candidate elected could NOT BOTHER some people!!!

Bart: its about Confirmation Bias. Once someone has made up their mind about the state of something, they will find evidence to support that idea, no matter how blatantly the facts suggest otherwise.

Sheila, thank you for responding.Your loyalties to Justice and kindness etc. are for me included under the heading of God, that is, Justice and kindness/charity. Yet I don't doubt that there are some differences in the details of our thinking.

Paul, I had expected the dialog to be political. That it has become, in part, a question of religion was a surprise.

Ingrid, anyone who has ever worked for the federal government knows that what Hillary did with her Email server brings jail time. No excuses. The reason for such a severe penalty is because of the severe damage such behavior causes, that is, the death of American military and intelligence members as well as revealing classified state secrets. She was handling material of the highest classification. In addition there is sufficient evidence that her Email was indeed hacked. That she was exonerated by a politicized Justice Department does not rectify the situation. The most generous argument for not prosecuting her is that it could have destabilized the American electoral process, a significant consideration. In other, words her exoneration was not based on her innocence (because she was not innocent) but rather on practical considerations.

Many of the men who wrote the Constitution were deists and the document reflects that. The framers of the Constitution were opposed to an established state religion, not opposed to God. The Constitution has provided wide enough scope for both atheists and those who believe in God to flourish.

And now I will stop posting on this topic as I have said what I have to say.

Cath

In all fairness and with respect, Cathz, when you said "We are all Americans. Our first loyalties are to God our families and our country.", you injected religion into the conversation and so separating the two now is more complicated, don't you agree?

"The Constitution has provided wide enough scope for both atheists and those who believe in God to flourish."

I expect there are many who would argue that especially at this juncture, that notion is likely to be challenged in the years to come. Just ask the American Muslim community.

Cath, That email thing is really a manufactured scandal to allow political damage to occur to prevent a Democratic woman from being elected. That was the only server the Russians didn't attack. Even worse she was a Clinton. I thought all Republicans knew this. I still don't see how Republican women don't get what is going on. I will likely never understand this.

Just bumping, as some reports of this thread being deleted....

As a matter of principal censorship must not be accepted

bump

Original thread is back! it's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease,...Censoring attitudes are NOT acceptable and never will be!!!!!!!!!!!!