Our kids went to a dual language Montesorri preschool (Spanish and English). I think it can be good start, but speaking the language must be continued or it will be lost. I have a friend here who lived in France for many years, and she meets with other French speakers regularly to speak French so she won't lose her ability to speak it since it is not her native language. If your child is interested in the camp, I would send them and follow up with a group where he or she could practice the language.

Have you checked schools in Quebec? Montreal or Quebec City or Ottawa. Are you looking for conversational french or reading/grammar/writing the whole bit.

I went to a French immersion program for the summer when I was in high school. My French improved dramatically, but without the correct reinforcement afterwards (I continued to take French in school, but it wasn't really conversational French), my ability fell off very quickly. I agree with texanjana that some kind of follow up group is important to make the learning stick.

She takes French as a high school freshman, and her teacher wants her to pursue it at the AP level (in a year or so). The class is heavily conversational, not like the French I had in HS, for sure!

She and I personally think it is an interesting subject, and it still helps in applying to selective colleges, but neither of us think French has much real practical future use for her. She enjoys it, but given a demanding curriculum if she had her druthers, she would add a second math class and ditch French. Not a choice at her school and not good for selective colleges. So, she intends to continue with French and does hope to take AP.

With this as background, the idea was that, among other things she does over the summer, taking immersion French might give her a leg up.

Great idea. There are camps near here (Ottawa/Montreal) I will ask around. I think it is certainly worthwhile and will give a child a huge boost in comprehension and early speaking skills. It would be important to maintain at least a class a week once returning from camp to consolidate the basics they've learned. Check out the Lycee in your nearest city too, they might offer summer courses or camps. The French consulate in Boston might know of some. Alliance Français as well.

Dd is still in an all French school (grade 7), but we just moved ds (grade 4)from a French immersion school to an English school with only core French three times per week. We will compensate by sending him to immersion camps later I expect.

Any camp you choose should focus on oral comprehension and speaking with minimal grammar. You don't need perfect grammar to communicate.

Check out this article re: best foreign language to learn. French still tops the list.

https://www.1843magazine.com/content/ideas/robert-lane-greene/which-best-language-learn

Some men find it sexy too but I agree that if you don't want to spend time in France, maybe another language is more useful.

Kitty, she had a choice of French and Spanish in middle school and chose French. When she went to BS, she wanted to switch to Mandarin. I told her fine, but that personally I thought it was a lot of work and unlikely to be truly useful at a professional level (I know some will disagree of course). I saw Russian as a hot language, then Japan, now Mandarin. In my experience the only people who learn Asian languages to any degree of proficiency live there for some time, which I don't think she is interested in doing. She may do a gap year in Cambodia, but there is no where to take Khmer for HS credit for sure!

So that this point, the pursuit of language is for an AP credit, and French is her best bet at this juncture.

Thanks for the ideas, Sochi, I really had only looked at Middlebury's highly regarded program and sending her to France. My mind totally skipped Quebec. Plus it would give me an excuse to look at real estate in Montreal (It helps me cope to fantasize about it!)

ETA -- men find it sexy? Lol are you teasing?

My kids take "honors" languages (one is in French) and will take AP when they can, but they are quite fluent already. I'm quite impressed. We have looked at immersion trips, but at this point, our kids do not plan on majoring in a language in college (with the exception of one, who's still has time to decide). So the AP courses will be practical, but I think our efforts on making them more marketable to colleges would be better spent elsewhere besides immersion trips.

There are so many curriculum and career-focused opportunities kids can take in high school. I often feel like I'm dooming their futures if I don't jump on each one. Fortunately, my kids' recently assigned high school counselor is young, pragmatic and well-versed in college entry. He cuts to the chase and has resources to back up.

I think you posted a video a while back, Mtn, showing the decision-making process of an elite college's admissions team. That whole discussion put things into perspective for me. That, and the turn our country has taken, has me coaching my kids in whole new ways that I did previously.

Yeah, I am not sure many people would choose a language major today, I agree. Did you take French? I did and have a lot of fun with duoLingo nowadays. I am not sure, but I think a lot of competitive colleges still require them to take a language in college.

They don't have the "honors" moniker, it is all numbered like college courses. They also do not have any AP courses per se (many private schools now eschew them), they claim they have more indepth courses than AP, but that those who pass them will usually pass an AP test if they so choose.

The video? The one where the dad being a drunk was a good thing? I know, it's kind of crazy.. Not kind of, totally. My kids still laugh about a tongue in cheek article, in the NYT I think, saying Stanford's acceptance rate was now zero.

As long as we have a racist bigot anti-immigration person in the house, how about if he disallows non-citizens to apply to our universities? Now that is some neanderthal thinking I could get behind, uhh for a few years. JK JK

LOL

Sochi - thanks for the article. I think few english-speaking people have a prayer of conducting a business meeting in a foreign language, where your grammar really does matter. So I don't believe, for the vast majority of anglophone kids studying them, foreign languages are any more than a good mental exercise and a cultural exposure.

You're probably right in the US. Context is pretty different here, you need a fairly high degree of fluency in both languages in several Canadian cities. I think it goes far beyond mental exercise though, but I agree that that alone is valuable. Speaking additional languages naturally expands people's worlds and breeds tolerance and even empathy. Not a bad thing in the current environment. In fact probably vital.

I do agree with that, Sochi. But I see it almost in the same category as art. Highly desirable for an education and for one's civic duty, not terribly useful for most in the context of a vocation. Unfortunately, economic insecurity, outsourcing to lower wage countries and automation have left most parents very insecure about education versus vocational preparedness (oh boy that could be quite a thread by itself).

Mtn, I took French and Spanish, and both served me only well enough not to get lost while traveling. I had a friend who learned Japanese in the 1980s and rode that wave to become very successful in international finance. I advised my kids that Spanish, of course, was a practical language to learn today and they replied "there will be an app for that" and so chose a language based on what their friends were taking and who they would study with. I can't argue their logic. What do I know?

Yes, that was the video, and where I jokingly lamented that my kids will have no hardships to write about in their college essays. They are blessed to live in a nationally ranked school district, are high academic achievers, and have a solid group of motivated friends. They'll succeed in any profession they choose, and if they don't, it's their own fault because they've had every advantage from Day 1. My goal is to push them in terms of ingenuity, resiliency and not simply following the current defined path of conventional happiness. Of course, this is a luxury I have as a parent who can provide for all of their material needs.

I was in a discussion last weekend about foreign students in our universities. Wow--now there was some vitriol! I do think it calls into question why we feel so threatened. As a nation, we are afraid that we can't keep up and will be left out, and this is a primary reason why Trump won, IMO.

My goal is to push them in terms of ingenuity, resiliency and not simply following the current defined path of conventional happiness.

Bravo

Thank you and it's not just rehearsed sentiments. In the past 8 years, I have come across more fascinating people who weathered the economic storm with inventiveness and resiliency. There are some very happy and productive people doing very unconventional work. The adaptable win. (As long as they maintain individual rights and liberties and have access to affordable, quality healthcare.)

A whole other thread indeed. I've been reading some of the other political threads here and in hot topics in an attempt to understand the context in your country at the moment. I don't comment as I understand that domestic US issues are really none of my business, as upset as I may be about all kinds of things. The whole question of the geo-political implications though? I'm literally beside myself with terror. I should start a thread on that. Or I should just try to isolate myself and drink more. ;)

Sochi, when I was trying to decide on a sign to march with, one of the ones I contemplated was "dear world, sorry".

Somehow I feel even worse that you're beside yourself with fear even though I'm beside myself with fear .

My DH, Who is the one who made me a liberal, finally said something that personally made me feel a little bit less fearful of the worst ... IEEE Civil War, nuclear war, economic collapse.

He said to me… You know all those Goldman Sachs people, do you for a minute think that they're going to let that happen? That may not resonate with anyone else, but being part of the industry and seeing it both for its good and bad, I did take some comfort that the worst case scenarios are probably not very realistic. I'm not going to defend my industry but these are very smart people and they're not gonna kill the golden goose. They can probably outwit and they could certainly outwork "Hair T".

eta.. to be clear, I'm only talking about the literal worst case scenarios I mentioned above. I don't think these people I'm referring to necessarily care very much about a lot of other very very important things, from climate change and a Free Press, to women's rights civil rights, immigration etc. I wouldn't assume that they are conservative on those things at all, if only because they live and work in New York City, but I also don't think they will save the day on that front

Lisa, your comment reminds me of something I learned in a psychology class many moons ago. The challenge was to find a universal definition of intelligence, one unrelated to education and testing etc.. and unrelated to the era or culture or point in time.

The practical meaning of intelligence was "adaptability". That's always stuck with me. And if you think about some of the very fashionable terms now used in education, resiliency and grit are very highly ranked. At my son's school they specifically teach and ask kids to think about "dispositions" that can help them be happier and more successful in life. One of the most important dispositions they ask them to develop is "a tolerance for ambiguity." I think it's brilliant and only wish that my education could've been that thoughtful and broad.

If I were choosing a language to learn these days it would be Mandarin. I think even conversational Mandarin could be very helpful in future careers. Knowing French has helped my career here in Canada.

Mtn, I think given the context that the camp would be a good idea for your DD.

Side note-I took 4 years of Latin in high school and 2 in college. My dad liked to say it was a dead language, but it continues to help my vocabulary to this day. I can often figure out the general meaning of new words from the Latin root, and I loved all the Roman history that I learned in my classes as well.

I think Mandarin might well be a fad, at least in America we always like to study the language of our arch rivals… First Russian was popular, then Japanese, now Mandarin. Again I know very few people in real life who can conduct a conversation in an Asian language if they were not born there or lived there. I think the amount of time one would have to devote to it would be unlikely to pay off. The private high schools in my area or over loaded with applications from China. They have to set a numerical limit otherwise the school would literally be all Chinese students. The best and the brightest in China learn English, usually by living in an English-speaking area. If you're going to have a meeting with a Chinese person in any position of power I think it's much more likely that they will be fluent in English then you will have anything more than a pigeon level in Mandarin. That was my experience as far back as 15 years ago.

eta - I agree about the utility of Latin. If I recall at her school latin is only offered as part of getting a specialized classics degree, which didnt have particular appeal to her. I will make a mental note not To ever challenge you to a Scrabble game, Texan Jana!

Each language you learn makes it easier for you to learn the next language. your brain acquires some kind of flexibility. This is well shown by research. So if your child is interested in French immersion, by all means send them to it. They may or may not move ahead and get fluent in French, but it certainly keeps a lot of options open for them if they ever do need French in the future, and if they ever need to learn another language, they will find it easier than a monolingual person would.

Not kidding. I had a best friend who used it and men would drink it up like free beer!

Personally, I love the sound of French and hearing people speak it. For me, it would be helpful to be able to read some art books or in visiting museums. My friend's mom was Canadian and so she spent summers there practicing. She later got art internships in France and a prestigious gallery position in NY. My mom spoke spanish as a second language and it's everywhere in CA. Half the radio stations and many TV stations are spanish language. If you speak French, you can go to Switzerland and maybe the Austrians might speak some French. I always smile thinking of Jackie cussing Pres. Kennedy out in French just in case anyone was passing by, listening.

Mtn - I know what you mean! It is not a casual person who could pick up asian languages or arabic enough to be professionally useful. My friends who made a concerted study of them and wanted a career have gotten jobs in the field (e.g. one who studied Japanese went to Japan under the JET program and worked for the Japan society in NYC). But it is true that the number of Chinese-origin, Mandarin speaking English speakers will dwarf the number of non-Chinese, English-first-language Mandarin speakers.

LOL robo, you must have smarter friends!

I never did a TI, but my DH graduated from Middlebury with a degree in French, and the language programs are taught at the Breadloaf Campus (or at least they used to be), which is truly lovely. DH wanted me to say that he did not learn conversational French while there, he learned conjugation, read obscure French plays/books, studied French scholars, etc. He spent his junior year in France and felt ill prepared to actually talk to people or take classes in French when he got there, it was remedied by doing classwork and living there, but he felt very over his head at first. Of course this was in the 1980's and he was there for college, and I suspect teaching philosophies have changed, especially for a summer program aimed at HS'ers.

Determining what language to learn depends on what field you're in or want to go into. DH is a computer programmer and travels a lot for his company. He said if DD wants to go it business of any kind she needs to learn German and an Asian language.

Just a warning on Montreal, French-Canadian is a different accent (and some different words) than modern French, so much so that some Quebecois TV programs are subtitled when broadcast in French-speaking countries. I don't know what version their immersion schools speak, however.

I think part of the benefit of a foreign immersion is that you'll also likely get exposed on a daily basis to more forms of the language, as it is spoken. The formal that we tend to get taught (or at least used to), and the more casual, especially spoken by "les ados" (teens).

French can be very useful professionally in specific situations - if your daughter chooses a business or development career that involves travel in parts of Africa, for example, it's essential. Middlebury is the gold standard for US-based language study in part because they are so strict about minimizing English usage.

I studied French in HS, French and Russian in college, and Arabic and Persian in graduate school and in the region - all very worthwhile although I'm fluent in none.

Mtn if you're planning a move to Montreal I have to put in a plug for McGill for the kids...excellent school and you meet the most amazing international students.

Love McGill, Robo, I know some people who went there and have always told my kids they should put it on their list if they qualify. As far as planning a move, I think of it as a contingency/fantasy. : )

Small, I agree that French is great for doing business in Africa, if one is expecting growth there (hard to say). She really wanted to do an Middle Eastern studies that another BS offered, but hers does not. Maybe not too practical but fascinating. Some reviews of Middlebury claim the kids do not adhere to the no-english rule, but ymmv.

Lakeaffect, cool! Yeah I think the focus of immersion is conversational, which seems to be everyone's focus nowadays. Makes sense.

Iowa, Asian and German for "business of any kind"? Not in my experience working for global banks and managing teams of various nationalities spread across Oceania, Asia, Europe and in NY. In my experience, if you are dealing with professionals in those countries, they are fluent in English. Remarkably so ...

Gooster --- good point. Not just for immersion, but for my duolingo hobby. They say emigrants can score points by taking a french test to enter Quebec; I better find out what kind of French. Someone told m

First off, Middlebury was my dream school. I wasn't accepted :(

Second, I always wanted, and would still like, to attend one of the Concordia language Village camps in Minnesota (they have adult AND kids camps!)

Third, send your daughter on a homestay program in France. I went in high school. It included 3 weeks living with a family. They did not speak English, so I HAD to speak French. It also included classes for our group and field trips. When I walked in to French class in September, my teacher noticed right away that I was more fluid, my grammar and vocabulary had improved, and I was the better for it.

edit to add, my "fraude famille" included a 3-year-old. One day my American classmate asked her if something was masculin ou feminin. Naturally little girl had no idea what she was talking about. Then we asked "le ou la?" and she got it right off the bat. It was just kind of funny. A family experience is great!

As for my own kids, one went on a 3-day weekend immersion when he was in middle school. He came home speaking French much more comfortably, and much more willing to speak it around the house with me. Now he's a senior and we still converse in French sometimes, though most of our exchanges are limited to "Leve-toi!" at 6:28 a.m.

DD went to a middle and high school where they spoke both English and Spanish. She quickly became proficient in Spanish, as well as Spanglish and lots of Spanish cuss words and insults, among other things (LOL!). She also took French, but as others have said here, if you don't use it often, you lose so much. Because of her college major, she needed to take a number of Spanish classes at OU. Her accent and pronunciation stayed spot on and impressed all of her professors but, again, being in Oklahoma she wasn't conversing in Spanish every day, and lost much once again. If your kids are going to make the effort to attend a Summer immersion program, I highly recommend first finding a local group, preferably with other teens, where they can continue to converse afterwards.

Thanks for the reassurance Mtn. That notion comforts, I'm almost certain your DH is correct. That does assume that there is someone rational in control of the weapons though, not a child with frequent temper tantrums. I have worked with refugees for over 20 years. Today is a particularly heartbreaking day.

Any good French language school or camp in Quebec geared towards teaching anglophones will teach international French. We have many French from France teachers here as well.

If she was in to Latin or Greek I would have a suggestion. My son did both of their summer college level programs and loved them. He hopes to put off his PhD program to go do a fellowship with them teaching HS students in Rome for a year