Kitchen/DR Pass Thru Question
I am buying a condo soooooon (I hope). The attached pictures are from the same model unit, but not the one I've contracted for. As you can see, the kitchen has a pass thru to the dining room. Some owners have taken down the entire wall to open the kitchen to the DR/LR, but I don't want to lose the wall cabinets to the left or the pantry to the right. However, I think I would prefer a more sleek opening. What are the negatives to eliminating the 10-inch high rise behind the sink and the 12-inch deep ledge that sticks out into the DR from a functionality POV? I know the kitchen would be more in view, but not sure how having just 9 inches behind the sink would look. FWIW, I'm also considering using the den opposite the kitchen as the DR. The DR area pictured is adjacent the LR and would be used to extend the LR space. So yea or nay to removing the 10-inch rise? Yea or nay to eliminating the ledge? TIA!
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Dithering on pass-thru in remodeled kitchen
Comments (9)We have the same setup in our bungalow and did not do a pass-through for basically the reasons you cite (and also, our range is on this wall and I was lukewarm about having a pass-through over the range). Our friends were renovating a kitchen that also has that layout at the same time, and did do a pass-through (also over the range). Theirs is just a cutout---like a window with no glass with a little ledge---rather than being a usable counter or breakfast bar, as some people do. Pros: They can see through to the dining room and their kids play in there so there's a line of sight; at parties, they pass things through to the dining room and set up a table there, and guests could be in the dining room while the host was in the kitchen without being separated. Cons: Can't really put furniture on this wall (they have a built-in sideboard on a different wall, but in our setup that wall is basically the only option for a sideboard since our built-in was removed years ago); we would have had to take off the original wainscoting in the DR, which I really didn't want to do; cooking smells from the kitchen travel into the rest of the house. I also had a lot of qualms about disturbing the flow of the house with the pass-through; our house was designed so that you can stand at the front window and look through a series of doorways all the way through to the backyard. Without having the pass-through it's hard to say if we made a bad decision not to do it, but I've seen so many in similar houses that look awkward and forced into the layout that I was afraid of messing around with it too much. With a four-foot doorway, you're also ahead of the game; we just have a 36" swinging door that starts 6" from the wall, so it's a much smaller connection. (I very much wanted to do the 4' door, but my husband felt strongly that we needed to have a door we could close, and the options for the wider space were too costly for our budget.) Good luck with the decision!...See MoreLayout help: Kitchen/DR/'porch'
Comments (15)I like this better than your initial plans because I think this suits your needs and wishes well. But it can use tweaking. Several of the aisles are tight, IMO. If you have 40" for the aisle between clean-up sink and island and 42" for the aisle between R/F (assuming these are built-ins about 27" deep with doors), you have room for a 29" wide island. You could shrink the R/F aisle to 40" but that doesn't really net you much gain. I like bmore's suggestions of moving the clean-up to the bottom wall, moving the range to the top wall (nicer view from DR) and moving the R/F to the side wall. This also helps with aisle clearances. 138" (11.5') -25.5 for sink wall cabs & counter (depth of 24" deep cabs with standard 1.5" counter overhang) -30" island (27" deep cabs with standard 1.5" overhang all around) ----- 82.5" remaining for aisles or 41.25" each for aisles. NKBA recommends 42" for one-cook kitchens, 48" for two-cook kitchens. Rhome410, one of the lay-out gurus here, has a 36" aisle between range top and island and it works well for her (despite 8 kids and various animals) but it's a range top, not a range - no oven door opening beneath it. I personally prefer more aisle in front of oven doors so that when it's open, there is room to maneuver. I would add a prep sink to the island so that you have a nice work triangle between range, R/F and prep area. The pantries are a bit far from the action but given your long, narrow-ish space, your options are limited. Here's an idea: you could add an 18" pantry cab on the R/F wall relocated to side wall and still have 24" of counter frontage before the corner and sink wall run. That would give you pantry storage for oft-used items within the working zone of the kitchen. Whoa, I just saw that the architect gave you a 12' island. That's not an island, that's a continent. ;-) How do you intend to use that much counter? If you're still considering a 2nd oven, you could add one below the counter here. I also just noticed the 3' section at the end is designated for seating. You can seat 2 people facing each other but that's only gives you the bare minimum for knee room (NKBA recommends at least 15" overhang and 24" width per person for 36" high counters). Given your husband's height, I think he'd prefer more knee space. You could seat one at the end but you'd need to lengthen the overhang by 3" - 6" to accommodate that arrangement. I am curious, though, why you're adding island seating and a cafe table if it's just the two of you. I'd be tempted to choose island seating and add another easy chair with coffee table placed between the two for a tete-a-tete space for you two. If you want table height seating, lower that end of the island to table height. Just be sure to take the NKBA minimums for 30" high counters (18" knee space and 30" width) into consideration. I'd also be tempted to make the pantry at the far right end - the one opposite the island - 18" deep, not 24" deep, to give you 48" between pantry and island, especially if this is a frequently used path. You'll appreciate the additional clearance. Do you really need 140 sq ft (assuming cabs are 84" tall) of pantry storage? That's a lot. If not, I'd make that whole run of pantry cabs 18" deep, which still nets you 105 sq ft of storage. You could also consider swapping out the center section with base and upper cabs and counter to give you a handy place to set pantry goods down (it would make unloading groceries bags more convenient). Have you tallied up how much storage you really need? If not, do so, and then configure your pantry cabs to match your needs. Here's what I'm talking about: I added windows in the little alcove across from the island to give you a nice view and to make up for the loss of a window above the range. Your DR clearances are also a bit lean. If your table is 42" wide, you only have 39" clearance around the table. If your table is 48" wide, you have 36" - that's tight. NKBA recommends 44" behind seating for walk behind space and 36" for squeeze behind space. I have 40" between kitchen table and island and it works for us but that's not the same as having only 40" between table and wall. I can crowd the island and have my arms extend over the island counter to get by but I can't do that between table and wall (I'm not sure what that unit is along the upper wall - buffet or floor to ceiling cabinet). It's a visual thing, too. That same amount of space feels much tighter in my DR because of the walls. Also, if those posts between DR and LR cut into the clearance space, as they appear to do based on the drawing, you have even less clearance. Unless you are really desperate for storage, I'd lose the cabinet along the upper DR wall and stick with storage on the left wall, provided you have sufficient length for your table, that is. (I didn't remove it from the above drawing.) How long is your table when fully extended? Make sure you have sufficient clearances then, too - especially for the hallway aisle so that no one feels as though they are sitting in a hallway. Thanks, LL!...See MoreKitchen/LR pass thru
Comments (3)Are you planning on stools on the living room side of the pass through? I would prefer a counter height opening b/c I think that’s always going to be more functional than a 2 tier counter The flooring you’re doing, is it just in the dining room or will it be in the kitchen too? What is the flooring you’re thinking of using?...See MoreTo tile or not to tile the DR backsplash, THAT is the question!
Comments (5)You need some sort of cased opening or other separation between the spaces. Different Colored cabinets so it reads as a dining buffet, and not the worlds worst planned giant kitchen space. Does a table even fit? You’vve made it all seem such a disproportionate amoebic blob, with no delineation of function. It needs structure and definition. A cased opening would be a very good start. Then a color for the buffet. Maybe pull in the tile color. Then use a color other than the blue from the counter for a simple backsplash....See More
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7 years agoUser
7 years ago
Olychick
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoCan you show a pic of the pantry? I'm asking because I'm wondering if there isn't some compromise, like taking out the wall but maybe hanging a two sided cabinet where the cabinet on the left is, one with glass doors perhaps?
You also might be able to squeeze some pantry space on the wall under the opening facing the dining room. Even if it's just stud depth, you could add unobtrusive doors, maybe the kind without handles that you push on to open, and have quite a bit of storage for cans and jars, etc.
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7 years agoOlychick - Not sure I want or need to change the corner cabinetry (esp with glass doors), but I like the idea of adding storage under the ledge in the DR area, whether or not I remove the pantry. Stealing the 9 inches already "wasted" under the ledge, adding a couple more inches in depth, and extended along the entire wall would gain a YUGE amount of storage without giving up much space in the DR area. Would really work well if I decide to move the DR into the den.
Here's the pantry.
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7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoCannot understand why 3 photos uploaded and the 4th didn't. Anyway, uploaded the pantry photo to Houzz. Let's see if this one makes it....
Kitchen · More InfoPlus, a new development: I got to see another unit that opened the kitchen from the hallway to just left of the sink. The pantry was removed and replaced with a drawer stack, but the corner wall cabinets remained in place. I loved it! The other thing I noted in that unit is placing the LR sofa/chairs on the opposite side of the room from the one I'm currently in (ref first photo above) will give tons more room for DR furniture in the DR area. Then I could use the den as a den rather than a DR!
I'm still going to explore storage cabinets/drawers along the kitchen/DR wall on the DR side.
Thanks for all your suggestions. If there are any more, I'd love to read them....
patty_cakes42
7 years agoI think you may be living in my condo in San Diego! lol It took me awhile before I solved(sort of!)the problem of the pass thru, since it was completely useless as a pass thru for me, even though it was on the dining room side. I used 2 wood and metal wall decorations which completely filled up the space but still allowed the light to come thru. These are not identical but very close. I used eye hooks screwed into the frame and hung with a few inches of chain. What you are looking at are the two color variations. I stained the frames very dark.
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7 years agoUser
7 years agoAfter weighing all the above advice and suggestions, I've decided to remove the pantry and the wall behind it over to the wall cabinets left of the sink. The wall cabinets in the corner by the sink will remain. I will add base cabinets outside the kitchen along the remaining "half" wall, facing into the DR. However, I need to decide what to put into the 15-inch void left by removing the pantry: drawer stack or base cabinet? I will be outfitting the existing large hallway cabinet with shelving to serve as a mini-pantry/coat closet.
Here's a rough sketch which still needs to be reviewed by the kitchen designer and my contractor (Monday!). The "?" is the soon-to-be-replaced pantry location.
Kitchen · More InfoI still haven't decided whether or not I'll remove the wall down to the kitchen counter or keep the 10-inch rise, despite the Notes on the plan above.
The DR cabinets will not match the kitchen. They will coordinate with my DR furniture (natural cherry). There is an end wall between the hallway and kitchen so the change between the two cabinet runs will not be seen. Again, still to be addressed with the kitchen designer.
Just because it's fun, here are photos of the counter I've chosen (Cambria Windermere) with white and with cherry cabinets:
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Kitchen · More InfoI'll be very happy to have a home of my own again. All my belongings have been in storage since June.
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7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoLast first (because that's how my mind works):
Yes, practigal, I can change layout (not the location); however, it will not give me any payback in the community development, and, frankly, I don't want to spend the dinero to completely redo the kitchen. My retirement income and time will be better spent on FUN (and wine - see below)!
chibimimi - 1 thought; 2 great minds! Here's the photo I pulled off GW last night that had me re-thinking whether I wanted a drawer stack or a cabinet:
You have no idea how much I troll this site. I'm more of a lurker these last 6.5 years, getting vicarious thrills from all of you!
I also thought I might install a wine cooler there, but all the ones I like that seemed to fit got low ratings due to noise, so I scotched that idea. Then, someone on GW linked to an article about James Beard (maybe about his culinary school?) with this picture:
Kitchen · More InfoI thought, what? Wait, wouldn't this work behind a cabinet door? So I got out of bed, emptied one of the pullout drawers in the existing pantry and loaded it with wine:
Kitchen · More InfoI could get at least 3 (maybe 4) pullouts in the cabinet (15 or 20 bottles!) and a drawer above to hold accessories. I would need to locate cradles for the bottles or drive myself crazy listening to glass rolling around every time I opened or closed the drawer. Trash or wine? What a choice.
robo - I'm keeping the end wall so I can use 2 different cabinets. The existing kitchen cabinetry definitely looks "kitcheny" vis a vis my more formal LR/DR furniture. While I don't mind it showing through to the LR/DR, I want to coordinate the new DR-facing cabinetry with the DR furniture (natural cherry). The new cherry cabinets will abut the existing white ones. The existing finished wall is 5 inches and there's a 2.5-inch filler between the DW and the pantry. I could probably gain 2 inches just by rotating the studs 90 degrees. The remaining wall needs to incorporate light switches. Can that work if the studs are rotated? For electrical code I might have to replace the existing outlet that's on the 10-inch rise to the right of the sink. Mockett opportunity? I'll explore with the designer and framer to see if I could gain enough to get an 18-inch cabinet. Great idea!
Olychik - Thank you! All that I've said in this current post is based on making the counter one level!
By the way, if anyone knows where I could get pulls like those pictured in the following photo, that's what I'd like in gold (brass?) on the new DR cabinets, which will coordinate with some of the LR furniture. I'm envisioning slab front cabs, no external drawer, but one at the top inside.
Oh, boy! When I'm in the midst of construction hiccups and delays, I'll have to remember how much fun it's been planning this stuff. FWIW, here's the overall layout of the place:
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