Post # 1

Something drastically wrong with my William Morris mother bush.

Straw: What do you think it could be? It survived monsoon all right but after the monsoon when there were no rains in the past 15 days, the leaves start turning yellow and start falling???

PS: Just for your information, if it is of some help. In past two years, 5 of my roses have died. Golden Celebration, Augusta Luise, Hot Cocoa, Fragrant Charm and Westerland. All of them were imported from Europe (UK and Germany) and were probably grafted on multiflora or canina or Dr. Huey root stocks, I am not sure. However, they were surely not grafted on centifolia which is the most popular root stock used locally. All of them just dried out and died, despite the fact that they were well taken care of, were not exposed to extraordinary heat and roses around them remained ok.

thanks and regards

Post # 2

This is Benjamin Britten. I purchased the bush from David Austin UK in probably late April or early May 2015. Probably grafted on multiflora or canina root stock.

This is how the bush looked in March / April (Spring period)

2 April. The bush looks great. Very healthy and bloomed well too.

However, as the summers started, it started getting wilted / crinkled leaves and never bloomed (may be one odd bloom in many months). It was kept in full sun.

In the past three weeks, I have twice given this rose (and other roses in pots) a doze of soluble mineral @ 1 tea spoon potash + 1 tea spoon soluble nitrogen fertilizer 36-0-12 with trace elements + 1 tea spoon of trace elements supplement (includes Fe,Zn, Cu, B, Mn) + 1 tea spoon of gypsum + 1 tea spoon of organic apple cider vinegar (to reduce effect of tap water) mixed in 15 liters of water. I did this because my routine compost was not available and during monsoon, the pots usually drain out most minerals when it rains for hours and hours.

Is it some mineral deficiency or some pest attack. Whatever it is, it has happened quite consistently in the past few months.

best regards

Khalid: Post #1 with leaves turn yellow, then fall off. Wikipedia wrote:

" R. canina is a vigorous arching deciduous shrub with mid-green foliage and pale pink or white flowers 5cm across, either solitary or in small clusters, in early summer, followed by ovoid red fruits."

Deciduous means leaves fall off .. that applies to R. Canina only.

R. Multiflora leaves don't fall off during drought .. but it's prone to blackspots and sensitive to salt & alkalinity. And Dr. Huey is VERY DROUGHT-tolerant, can sit in the store for months, and still sprout green leaves.

R. Canina lose leaves with sudden change in temp. and light. Excerpt from below link: http://www.rose.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/History-of-Roses-Species-Part-A.pdf

R Canina: root stocks several decades ago. In some locations, they are considered a pest weed. Modern rose garden groups are the Sweetbriars, Dog Rose and Albas.

Albas is known to like cold climate and tolerate shade. So the mother-rootstock R. Canina is NOT suitable for hot & sunny Pakistan climate, but ideal for cold & wet & gloomy English climate. R. canina can't cope with heat & sun & alkaline tap, so it drops its leaves.

POST #2: "a doze of soluble mineral @ 1 tea spoon potash + 1 tea spoon soluble nitrogen fertilizer 36-0-12 with trace elements + 1 tea spoon of trace elements supplement (includes iron, zinc + 1 tea spoon of organic apple cider vinegar (to reduce effect of tap water) mixed in 15 liters of water."

From Straw: 1 teaspoon vinegar of apple cider for 15 liters, or 4 gallons of water WON'T LOWER TAP WATER. Apple cider is very mild, I have to use 4 times the amount compared to white vinegar for salad-dressing.

To lower tap water at pH 9 to pH 5.6 (rain-water), I use 1 teaspoon of white vinegar per 1 gallon .. which translate to 4 teaspoons of apple-cider per 1 gallon, which translate to 16 teaspoons per 4 gallons (15 liters).

The only time I get crinkled leaves with dead brown spots was when I dumped wood-ash (very salty & very alkaline) on Carding Mill. My first instinct when I looked at the crinkled leaves is: TOO ALKALINE.

When I dumped horse manure at pH 8 on OLD-GARDEN ROSE Duchess de Rohan, leaves immediately got dead-brown-patches and black-veins (necrosis) from high pH. Old Garden rose thrived centuries ago with acidic rain water, there wasn't alkaline tap water back then. Multiflora-rootstock can't take alkaline tap water nor salt, since it's a wild species. Same with R.Canine, a wild species.

Only Dr. Huey-rootstock, modern-day- bred in California (alkaline-region) that can handle tap-water at pH 9.

Nitrogen at 36 is 90 salt-index. So you are adding 1 teaspoon of salt. If it's sulfate of potash, then it's 43 salt index. If it's muriate of potash/potassium chloride then it's 116.2 salt-index. But salt-damage shows up as brown edges, so it's NOT salt-damage.

The zinc and iron supplement might be the problem. Too much of iron and zinc cause other trace-element deficiencies, esp. copper .. which will result in crinkled leaves.

However, too high nitrogen will drive down calcium. Thus calcium should always be supplied with nitrogen as in 1 part nitrogen & 1 part potassium, 1/2 part calcium, plus 1/4 phosphorus, less than 1/4 magnesium .. that's the ratio in rose-tissue-analysis.

Also calcium as in acidic gypsum, or alkaline lime, helps to leach out the salt in high-nitrogen. Organic sources of high-nitrogen: feather, hair, blood from slaughterhouse, crab shells, fish meal, soy bean.

Phosphorus is needed in much smaller amount (mainly for root & branching and flowering, rather than for leaves). But calcium and magnesium is needed to form healthy leaves, along with nitrogen. Magnesium provides the gloss on the leaves.

Below link is excellent, I'll read that again tomorrow. Necrosis mean dead and black spots: ammonium toxicity (from high nitrogen fertilizer). I'm pretty sure it's NOT boron def either (witches' broom, bunch up leaves).

The acient wild-species root-stock such as R. Multiflora and R. canine can't take salty chemicals either. Centuries ago, there's no ammonium, just rain water and soil minerals. Centuries ago, there's no tap water either.

https://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/garden/mg/damage/key.html

"3. Tissue breakdown – necrosis and firing of the tip and margins of the leaf.
The ammonium cation in itself may become phytotoxic and result in breakdown of the plant tissue (proteolysis -breakdown of plant proteins) initially producing a wet, dark-green, "steamed" appearance at the leaf tips and margins. This destroyed tissue eventually desiccates and becomes a light tan color. Excess ammonium may also induce calcium deficiency (abnormally dark green foliage, scalloped leaf margins, weak stem structure, death of terminal bud or growing point of the plant, premature shedding of the blossoms and buds)... ammonium toxicity.

Straw thanks for your comments on Post #1. In past two years, this William Morris bush never dropped leaves during drought or fall etc. The bush has so far remained healthy and I have been posting the pics in hot summers when it performed so well. I don't see a reason for this performance. BTW, the mineral doze that I mentioned in Post 2 was not given to this pot.

I am not sure it is multiflora or canina root stock. However, this bush never shed leaves like this before. There has been no sudden change in temp and in Islamabad, usual season for the roses to shed leaves end December to January, not in October. I only hope everything goes fine with this bush.

See the bush on 27 July, just the start of monsoon season when it was still very hot.

Straw, whatever has happened to this bush is not usual. It is unusual. This has been one of the healthiest bush in my house.

POST #2.

Straw: Thanks for your comments. I just missed out that the supplement also contained gypsum. I have edited the above post. This is what it says now....

"In the past three weeks, I have twice given this rose (and other roses in pots) a doze of soluble mineral @ 1 tea spoon potash + 1 tea spoon soluble nitrogen fertilizer 36-0-12 with trace elements + 1 tea spoon of trace elements supplement (includes Fe,Zn, Cu, B, Mn) + 1 tea spoon of gypsum + 1 tea spoon of organic apple cider vinegar (to reduce effect of tap water) mixed in 15 liters of water. I did this because my routine compost was not available and during monsoon, the pots usually drain out most minerals when it rains for hours and hours."

So, if gypsum is already there, would it make a difference?

Secondly, the bush is like this since the past three months. I started giving the above supplement only 15 days back. So whatever it is, it happened after spring, during summers and monsoon and not due to this supplement. During spring the bush was doing great as you can see in the photos. These crinkled leaves has been a common problem with so many of my roses this summer. Even so many of my roses in ground suffered with the same problem and I have been posting those pics.

Do you think it could be some pest damage and not a mineral deficiency? Or may be a combination of both?

best regards

Post #2

As for the concentration of salts, I guess during monsoon whatever was there should have drained out. The purpose of giving diluted solution of 36-0-12 along with potash, gypsum, trace elements supplement and apple cider vinegar was to replace the minerals that might have drained out during monsoon.

The composition of trace element supplement is Zn 4% / 40 grams per liter, Fe 2% / 20 gram per liter, Mn 2% / 20 grams per liter, B 1% / 10 grams per liter and Cu 1% / 10 grams per liter. Than, 36-0-12 also contains trace elements with the ratio of B 0.013%, Cu 0.025%, Fe 0.050% and Mn 0.025% with no Zn. The nitrogen supplement is shown below. I am using the same formula in concentrated form in my compost as well, ie, I water my compost of fruit / veg peels, egg shells and chicken manure with a concentrated solution of the formula explained in above post. However, that compost will be ready by end Nov or Dec and hasn't been fed to the roses yet.

Please also note that the kind of crinkled leaves that you see in Benjamin Britten was there in many roses planted in ground as well. It was not restricted to pots only. I would say the rose bushes affected were almost equal in ground and in pots. However, most bushes in ground seem to have recovered, specially the fresh leaves after shifting of roses. That was the reason I suspected some kind of pest attack as well though I did not notice any pests on the leaves / bushes.

What I see missing in my formula is Mg. May be I may add half a tea spoon of MgO2 in the 15 liter bucket along with the other items already mentioned. Your views Straw?

best regards

Khalid: Your Vitax has a balanced of trace elements. Except for potassium oxide at 10%. Anything with oxide in it, such as "magnesium oxide" is EXTREMELY ALKALINE, at pH over 12. Thus the Vitax is already alkaline, adding MgO2 (magnesium oxide) would make it worse.

Yes, gypsum (calcium sulfate) will help to de-salt, but 1 teaspoon gypsum for high nitrogen of 36 is not enough. Such high nitrogen is best once a month. The MG-soluble of NPK 20-20-20, it says on the package, 1 tablespoon every 2 weeks.

Folks in very hot & dry climate report that their roses lose leaves during hot & dry spell. I hung out in rose forum for 3 years so I read these reports from warm & dry climate like CA. Also your pots are in terracotta, thus DRY OUT VERY FAST, compared to roses in the ground.

R. Multiflora and R. Canine needs constant moisture, best in cooler-underground, . Folks in hot climate like CA (over 100 F.) have to insulate their pots with 2 layers: like a Styrofoam pot inside a wooden pot.

I tested "Smart-Pot" made of breathable fabric and THAT DIDN'T WORK for own-root Jude the Obscure, nor my cuttings. Smart-Pot was great for Knock-out (grafted on Dr.Huey) in Texas study.

I find that roots don't dry out when I put in plastic pots, and drill LARGE HOLES at the bottom, plus put in very shady location (less than 4 hours) in hot temp above 90 F.

Going from rainy to hot & dry cause leaf-loss in wild-rose-rootstock in post #1. I'm convinced that one is grafted on R. Canine (deciduous by nature). My deciduous trees have tons of healthy leaves in rainy spring, keep their leaves in rainy Sept., but lose their leaves most during dry Oct. Deciduous means they lose leaves going from wet to dry. The year which trees lose leaves earliest was a dry & warm Oct.

And post #2 looks like too alkaline. When I put too much ALKALINE SAND in the hole of Sun-Downer, leaves become crinkled (copper def). When I put too much ALKALINE wood-ash in the hole of Carding Mill, leaves got crinkled, plus brown spots from salt-damage.

The black dead spots look like ammonium toxicity (too high nitrogen), plus extreme alkalinity from potassium hydroxide.

Question: what's the composition of the soil in the pot? Thanks.

Nitrogen at 36 is really high, which needs 1/2 of that amount in calcium. The last time I used such high nitrogen at temp. 85 F, Sonia Rykiel broke out in rust fungal disease in a dinky pot. High nitrogen always attract pests by fast soft growth.

Chamblee nursery in hot Texas recommended ZERO fertilizer during hot temp. above 90 F. Bluegirl in Texas burnt a few of her roses by fertilizing in summer, so she only fertilizes in spring (below 80 F.) or fall (below 80 F.) Nitrogen fertilizer is highest in salt-index (90 to 100), next is potassium & phosphorus, lowest is lime at 0.4 salt-index, and gypsum at 8 salt-index.

Found a link of pest-damage that cause leaf-curl, on rasp. bush, but I'll dig further for roses. http://www.fruit.cornell.edu/berrytool/raspberry/leavesstems/Raspcurling.htm

Straw: Very good points regarding high nitrogen and high alkalinity. I had planned to give only two dozes to my pots after the monsoon so I will not be giving anymore nitrogen to my pots now. And in two months, my fruit / vegetable peels chicken manure compost will be ready that should be high in organic nitrogen. What confuses me here is that this crinkled leaves problem occurred in roses planted in ground as well, not only in roses in pots.

Good point regarding deciduous behaviour of canina. However, the same bush didn't behave like this last year!!. And BTW, I did not give the nitrogen gypsum potash doze to this bush as the leaves were already getting yellow.

Very high alkalinity of MgO2 is noted. I think use of spinach shake will be better for this purpose.

Do your completely disregard any pest attack?

best regards

Khalid: Very good question about possibility of pests. Check out an excerpt in the below link: "

Anything that causes damage to the roots can cause chlorosis in older leaves. Damage to the roots can be caused by nematodes, insects, diseases, herbicides such as Roundup® (Fig. 1), excess salinity (Fig. 2), drought, and flooding. "

http://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/L-15.pdf

Plants in full sun are capable of utilizing greater amounts of nutrients applied as fertilizer than leaves grown under shade conditions, which will be thinner and not able to utilize much fertilizer. The rule of thumb is that plants to be maintained indoors need one tenth the amount of fertilizer."

Many insects, nematodes, and diseases damage the root system. This damage will cause the lower leaves to turn chlorotic or necrotic and eventually fall off. Leaf drop may also be caused by release of ethylene as the plant responds to stress. Some examples are Pythium splendens damage to mondo grass (Fig. 10)
root mealybugs on potted palms (and other potted plants) (Fig. 11) ).

http://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/L-15.pdf

The below link shows excellent pics. of diseases in ROSES, which don't match any of Khalid's previous pics. I'm convinced that the leaf-curl and crinkled is a from high-salt and alkalinity .. which happens in roses which I fixed my clay with sand. I really should taste my coarse sand to see how salty it is.

Wood-ash has 20% salt, and manure has 10% salt, so that adds up. Folks in dry & alkaline California use wood-ash at pH over 12 to kill weeds.

http://www.apsnet.org/publications/apsnetfeatures/Pages/Roses.aspx

Straw wrote: I'm convinced that the leaf-curl and crinkled is a from high-salt and alkalinity .

My thoughts are also tilted in the same direction, Straw but I just wanted to eliminate the possibility of any pest attack. After shifting (the soil is almost completely new), most of my roses in ground have started growing perfect foliage, no curls. However, the roses in pots (same old soil) continue to show the crinkled / curled leaves. In my view this is an indication that what you have diagnosed is correct.

I will keep giving them 1 to 2 tea spoon of apple cider vinegar per 15 liters bucket for at least one month. I don't want to do give too much of vinegar. I just want to bring the pH level between 7 to 6.5, not less. What do you say?

best regards

Khalid: Agree to that ... Centifolia-rootstock produces plenty of acid. Plus roses wilted in the heat when I brought the pH to below 7.

Straw: Couple of issues still remain unresolved and keep bothering my mind. One... a big number of roses in the ground also suffered the same wilted / crinkled leaves problem. I can understand salt accumulation in the pots but in ground, it doesn't happen unless one is ruthlessly putting something that has a high salt content. I did not use anything in ground that had such high salt. Wood ash was only used when it was raining, never without a rain. So I guess the effects of wood ash should have been diluted with rain.....

Secondly, I still feel tha pest attack is a possibility and shouldn't be ruled out. Will get back on this point with few more photos.

best regards

Khalid: You mean the roses in the ground IN YOUR NEW GARDEN? Chili-thrips is a big problem in hot climate. Check out the below pics. to see if it match with your leaves. The 1st three pics. are roses' leaves:

The below pic. are tomato leaf & other leaves' showing thrips damage:

Bare roses in Florida from chili-thrips (an insect) damage:

Below is University of California on how to control thrips, a pest in hot climate:

" Adult thrips can also be monitored by hanging bright yellow sticky traps in or near host plants."

http://ipm.ucanr.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7429.html

Straw: Thanks for posting these pics. Some of the roses have similar looking symptoms, if not identical. I am digging out old pics. Will compare the old pics with these and other sources on web. Thanks for the pointer.

Straw: Just read your post again. No, the problem hasn't occured in the new garden much. It was in the old garden more. Actually, most roses in ground are developing perfect new foliage, but the new foliage in pots is mixed. Few bushes are good whereas few bushes still have the same foliage.

Here are few photos of Alnwick Rose.

The bush is overall healthy. It was planted on 26 Jan this year (a six months old grafted bush at that time) so it is 15 months old now. Grafted on centifolia root stock. Many other Austin bushes of same age are double the size by now.

It could be chili thrips or some other kind of thrips. I didn't spray my roses with tobacco water or neem water whole summer and monsoon. That might have invited thrips!! What do you say?

best regards

Khalid: I look at Alnwick rose for a second time, no problems with thrips, the bloom doesn't have brownish-edge, but the POT IS TOO SMALL. That was Bluegirl's verdict when she looked at this thread, and I agree. She's from hot Texas so she knows when roses are deprived of water: lose leaves.

In her hot Texas, Bluegirl uses 10 gallons or 38 liters pots, but she prefers 15 gallon, or 56 liters for her roses in pots.

When the pot is too small, there's less leaves & smaller leaves, and leaves are deformed due to water not available 24/7 ... it's like drinking from a tiny cup with a straw, there will be shortage of water, and that will result in crinkled leaves.

I had seen tiny leaves & less leaves in tiny pots that nursery sent me. I had seen crinkled leaves like that in SunDowner and Heirloom roses .. that's when I bought as grafted-Dr.-Huey, and the roots are cut really short by the store plus drought. But we have tons of rain now, so the roots can branch out, and leaves are straight & larger.

Solution to crinkled leaves: put in a larger pots, so the roots can branch out to get instant water, rather than deprived of water. Deprivation of water will cause crinkled leaves.

Any high nitrogen fertilizer will invite thrips & other insects. I used Coop-Poop low-nitrogen NPK 2-4-3 and my Dee-lish gave out plenty of growth. But Dee-lish has lots of organic matter in the planting hole: decayed leaves & alfalfa.

Organic matter nourish the soil-bacteria that fix nitrogen, plus it buffers the salt in fertilizer. If there's tons of acidic rain, then nitrogen is needed (due to leaching). But if there's no rain, NITROGEN IS NOT NEEDED.

Watering by tap-water doesn't leach out nitrogen, due to tap-water high pH above 7, at that alkaline pH, nitrogen is maximized due to calcium in tap water.

High phosphorus also invite thrips. Thrips cause brownish edges on blooms, plus deformed blooms. One summer I tested Dr. Good Earth Flower girl NPK 4-10-7, with bone meal and kelp meal .. that burnt the roots of my roses with its high salt kelp and sewage sludge. That was the 1st time in 4 years that Yves got thrips !! High phosphorus drive down zinc and iron .. thus leaves are thinner.

Too high nitrogen invites insects, plus drive down phosphorus, so the growth is tall & slender, rather than branching and bushy.

Nitrogen, potassium, and phosphorus compete for the same absorption. Nitrogen fertilizer is highest in salt, thus SHOULD NOT BE used when the temp is above 80 F, or 26 C. Bluegirl in hot Texas only fertilizes in cool spring, and cool fall.

I stop GRANULAR fertilize after June, when temp reach 80 F, but resume chicken manure in cool fall with Coop-poop NPK 2-4-3.

The first sign of phosphorus decline is VERY DARK GREEN foliage, plus purplish tinge. Too much nitrogen cause a decline in phosphorus.

The first sign of too much calcium is pale leaves due to high pH, or zero blooms. Too much calcium drive down potassium (necessary for blooming). I put too much gypsum in Munstead Wood when it was in a pot, so it refused to bloom.

When I used stinky chickity-doo-doo at NPK 5-3-2, the nitrogen was too high and roses were stingy. Once I switched to zero-odor & well composted Coop-Poop at NPK 2-4-3, plus a bit of sulfate of potash, lots of leaves and buds too. And we have constant rain in late fall.

My conclusion: high nitrogen is NOT necessary, unless it's winter-kill down to the ground like zone 5a .. spring time when roses are killed down to my ankle, that's when I used NPK 10-5-4, with cold temp and tons of rain in spring.

Straw: Here is another problem that has happened to many roses so far....

This is happened with few roses. First there are dots / spots like the one shown in first photo. They keep increasing and finally, the branch becomes dead and has to be cut.

Any idea what this is and what is the remedy.

best regards

Those pics. look like "rose scales" which afflict roses in warm climate.

http://www.clemson.edu/extension/hgic/pests/plant_pests/flowers/hgic2107.html

"Rose Scale - Adult scale insects have an unusual appearance. They are generally small and immobile, with no visible legs. They secrete a waxy covering, making some appear white and cottony while others appear like white, yellow, brown or black crusty bumps. The waxy covering or "scale" protects adult scale insects from many insecticides. Their immature forms, called crawlers, are susceptible, however.

Rose scales are usually found on rose canes where they feed on sap with their piercing-sucking mouthparts. With a heavy infestation, rose scale can cause cane decline or twig dieback.

Control: Various natural enemies, including ladybird beetles (ladybugs) and parasitic wasps, usually keep scale insects under control. With light infestations, scale can be scraped off by hand and destroyed. Pruning out and destroying heavily infested canes is helpful. Horticultural oil sprays (also called supreme, superior or summer oils) work well to control armored scales, such as the rose scale, by penetrating their waxy covers and smothering them. Horticultural oils applied at higher rates of 3% to 4% during the dormant season (i.e., to a rose bush that has lost its leaves) will penetrate the thick waxy covers of the overwintering adults. Applications at lower rates of 1% to 2% can be used during the spring to target the crawlers (immatures) and the newly settled scales with thin waxy covers. It is best to spray when temperatures are between 40 and 85 degrees.

Monitor the crawler emergence in the spring with sticky cards, double faced tape wrapped around a branch, or by putting an infested shoot into a baggie and watching for crawler movement. The presence of crawlers can sometimes be determined by sharply tapping an infested twig on a piece of white paper. Crawlers are very small and will appear as moving specks of dust.

Avoid using insecticides as much as possible as they will often kill the naturally occurring enemies of scale. When insecticides are necessary, they should be applied only when the crawler stage is present.

http://www.clemson.edu/extension/hgic/pests/plant_pests/flowers/hgic2107.html

Here's a recipe for organic control: Scale and Mealybugs: Make an oil preparation that suffocates them by mixing four tablespoons of dishwashing liquid into one cup of vegetable oil. Mix one part of that mixture to about twenty parts of water, put it in your sprayer and spray the affected plants.

http://www.abc.net.au/gardening/stories/s2607562.htm

Khalid: I was just looking at your William Morris pictures. It looks similar to my recent rose infestation of spider mites and thrips. I was spraying my roses with a mixture of Neem oil and dish soap. It seems to help. all the leafs shivered and finally dropped. Now I am seeing new growth and canes emerging. It worrys me since we have November, they should be resting, and I was planing on pruning my roses in January. I think I am going to do a little haircut now, and give them a clean start -we don't have winter here in California.

Straw and Anna, thanks a lot for the help. Just came back today after weeks travel and saw that my roses were looked after well by my sons and helper. I will follow the advises given.

Thanks and regards

Anna: very good question. I planted lots of peppermint last year and used that to mulch my roses .. didn't have any aphids in spring, except for Evelyn which was really early spring (no mint), but I gave it lime (calcium) and that hardened the tissue ... aphids gone immediately.

Peppermint leaves are acidic when soaked too long in water, so I soak it for less than 1 day. A few mint leaves thrown on the bush is enough to keep those BIG deer from eating my roses, plus I plant mint next to the house on purpose to keep mice away. If mint can keep such big animals like deer away, it surely help with tiny insects.

For spider mites: I use rubbing alcohol to gently rub the stems, and the alcohol vapor made them fall down, which I catch with paper underneath. My kid uses rubbing alcohol to kill ants.

hmmm.... peppermint. Very nice idea. Thanks Anna and Straw.

Anyone know what is going on with Earth Angel? This got worse after rain. Is it poor drainage?

Hi Aileen (Totoro): In too wet soil, lowest leaves become yellow, then drop off completely. The 1st sign of poor drainage & too wet is a plant loses its lower leaves & bare-legged, be it impatient flower or roses.

In cold weather, leaves of my maple-tree in compact-clay look just like your pictures. Yellow with black fringes. It looks more like potassium deficiency which are less mobile in compact clay and cold weather. Potassium deficiency affects the lowest leaves: turn yellow with black & brown fringes.

With tons of acidic rain water at pH 4 to 5 (east coast rain is more acidic), there will be potassium deficiency. Since potassium is needed at TWICE MORE than calcium, potassium deficiency will show up first.

With acidic clay soil, the best remedy would be high potassium lava-sand. With acidic sandy soil (like Filrose in Florida), she put red-lava-rock on top for potassium. Red-lava is also high in magnesium, and it tends to make clay soil more compact, so for dense & compact clay, sulfate of potash is still best.

I would pH-test that soil with red-cabbage juice to make sure it's acidic, before applying crushed-red-lava, it's sold on Amazon for $13, enough for 6 roses. I bought that before, and tested it on Carding Mill & Stephen Big Purple & 2 other .. Looking back, that was the best-blooms & most healthy year for Stephen Big, which got tons of acidic rain-water from the rain-barrel.

https://www.amazon.com/Hoffman-14452-Volcanic-Lava-Quarts/dp/B000BZ8H0Y/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1479143126&sr=8-2&keywords=red+lava+rock

My Earth Angels get very pale leaves on the lower part of the plant, some of which turned yellow after every rain here so far. Everything else in their row on both sides of them seemed to not be affected. I just assumed that they didn't like as much rain as their neighbors or am I missing something? No blackspot though.

The top has plenty of healthy new growth and they are going to be way bigger than expected, no blooms yet. Planted in in September and more than doubled in size. I have them where I needed a compact, shorter bush so I hope that they calm down soon!

Straw, your informative post loaded for me after I posted, sorry!

I think that one of my biggest newbie mistakes was planting Austins next to plants that just don't like as much water. One of them is always upset unless their watering is very precise, LOL!

Khalid, those pictures with Straw and Anna's added wisdom are very good learning tools, thanks!

Lavenderlace: glad to hear from you. Thank you for the info. It seems to be typical of certain Kordes rose. My Poseidon doesn't have blackspots, but lowest leaves are yellowish with cold weather. I spent 2 hours digging that hole, plus one big bag of coarse sand, so the soil is NOT compact, and drainage is excellent.

I notice that Kordes Poseidon needs TWICE more sulfate of potash to bloom than other roses.

Re-post the info. on pH test soil, using red-cabbage juice:

I bought a soil-kit from Lowe's and it was a waste of time & gave me false result. Faster to get 7 to 8 leaves of red-cabbage from grocery store (sold by lb.), chop that up, and boil in 3 cups of DISTILLED WATER ($1 from grocery store). Boil for 10 min, then save the juice to test up to 15 samples, from potting soil, to alfalfa meal, to your tap water, plus 1 Tablespoon of soil from different locations in your garden.

The above test costs $2, $1 for distilled water, and $1 for red-cabbage leaves.

I use those small apple-sauce cups, or small yogurt cups for each soil samples. I use 1/2 tablespoon of baking soda as pH 9 and 1 tablespoon of vinegar as pH 2.6, plus red-cabbage juice itself as pH 7. I put soil samples in those tiny cups, then pour the hot cabbage juice. I use a spoon to stir each soil sample well. Wait for 30 min, before reading the color on top.

Here's the procedure in detail, inside the link the pic. of test tubes is wrong ... they accidentally switched pH 7 with pH 8 for the test tubes. My soil is dark-blue, at pH 7.7, professionally tested by EarthCo.

Coffee grounds should be clear, it's a buffer. Most potting soil becomes clear solution, or neutral pH. Alfalfa meal reported pH is 5.8. Rain water pH is 5.6.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/2132487/cheapest-way-to-test-soil-ph-using-red-cabbage?n=26

The below recent pic. from the internet is most accurate:

After 30 min. of soil sample soaked in red-cabbage juice, if the above solution is cloudy: there's free lime (calcium), and it's a good sign. My healthiest rose is Tchaikovsky (not a trace of blackspot & lots of blooms): cloudy blue, pH 8, with plenty of calcium.

Kordes First Crush, Savannah, and Beverly don't seem to be as sensitive to too much water as Earth Angel, at least for me.

Our weather is not cold enough to report on how that will affect them yet.

Thanks for the ph info Straw!

I also need to find Khalid's great thread on most fragrant roses that can take the heat as Heirloom Roses has a lot more in stock this week!

Thank you everyone for the EA advice. Will check pH and add some K. A probably should make this hole better draining next year when I plant next to it.

Hey Khalid, if you haven’t solved your scale problem, might I suggest wiping the still worth saving canes with rubbing alcohol? I see that Straw has recommended that for mites as well. I had an armored scale infestation in my front yard this summer that was successfully treated with weekly alcohol rubbing. I cut down all the severely affected canes (50% of the canes were almost entirely covered by scales), and used a cotton pad to gently rub the partially affected canes that were left. The alcohol will wilt some leafs that it touches, but if you can spend the time to be delicate with the process, it will kill the scales with minimal harm to the bush. Depending on the severity of the infestation, it will take several applications, it took me 4.

Jabubaoski: That's a great idea !! Thank you for sharing your experience. How are your roses in pots doing? When will you have your 1st frost? Mine was last Friday & Sat. which wiped out most of my tomatoes.

Hi Straw,

Glad to be able to pitch in! Scales are gross and they slowly kill the plant, I had a hard time finding a less toxic remedy that would work, insecticidal soap and neem oil have a hard time penetrating their shells so I figured alcohol was worth a shot.

I have yet to have my first frost, my petunias are still blooming believe it or not! They are ragged looking now but I feel bad cutting them down.

My roses in pots are doing well! Several are still blooming. The roses I potted in September have adapted well, Quietness is so silly she pushed out a new bud! Due to the sun position in late fall I don't get much sun anymore in the garden, I'm not sure all the buds will have time to bloom.

Molineux has more intense color in the fall, the flowers last a week on the bush, the fragrance lasts even when the petals blow, it's barely fragrant in the heat of the summer.

Morey's pink has done quite a bit of growing with the cooler temps since arriving as a weak band this summer and got sun burned.

jabubaoski wrote: "Hey Khalid, if you haven’t solved your scale problem, might I suggest wiping the still worth saving canes with rubbing alcohol? I see that Straw has recommended that for mites as well. I had an armored scale infestation in my front yard this summer that was successfully treated with weekly alcohol rubbing. I cut down all the severely affected canes (50% of the canes were almost entirely covered by scales), and used a cotton pad to gently rub the partially affected canes that were left. The alcohol will wilt some leafs that it touches, but if you can spend the time to be delicate with the process, it will kill the scales with minimal harm to the bush. Depending on the severity of the infestation, it will take several applications, it took me 4."

That's a great suggestion jabubaoski. Will certainly try this. Thanks a lot.

best regards