Hi Alex,

" Did not know the blister bugs were eating the seeds ... "

They eat the pollen florets -- the fuzzy yellow starfish -- not the seeds themselves. I killed two blister beetles on my zinnias in my South garden yesterday, using my "special" forceps.

" I just went to see if, in fact, there was a different first frost date
predicted these days and it said Sept 25th! Oh well. Close enough. "

That is close to your September 21st date. However, the climate data I refer to attaches probabilities to the dates, so you have a whole range of dates with different probabilities that each date is valid. In other words, you are not guaranteed that either Sep 21 or Sep 25 will be your first frost. And the climate data distinguishes between first frost and first killing freeze. Last year here in central east Kansas we had a killing freeze on October 30th, but a light frost did cosmetic leaf tip and petal tip damage a week before.

If your "average" dates are associated with a 50% probability, they are pretty risky.That's why I am leery of "average" dates.

" Their assessment of the last frost date I strongly disagree with, though - they project May 19th - no way! "

I think that by "last frost" date, they mean something like the date when it would be "safe" to plant or set out plants in the Spring. That wouldn't be too far off as a safe-setting-out date here. Once again, probabilities are heavily involved. I know you are in a State north of Kansas, and you may have said which one and I just forgot, but if you don't mind saying which State and which general part of it you live in, I could go into detail about what the Climate Data says in your area with respect to the probabilities associated with first frost, first killing freeze, and last frost date. Or not. It can get a bit complicated.

Gardening is a gamble, but it helps to know the odds when gambling.

ZM

ZM - oh I see - so you really weren't implying that I'm just another pretty face without a brain in my head LOL. Well, mon ami (we're watching all the old episodes of Monsieur Poirot - the little Belgian has me talking like him), you are more dedicated to making crosses as long as possible, so the garden gambling is something you want an edge on, n'est-ce pas?

BTW - I'm in the middle of the lower peninsula of MI. Because of the Lakes, MI zones vary a bit, but we have been zone 5a. I say 'have been' because it's been years since I remember temps hitting -20*, though we've come close. Can't say what the future holds.

Things are winding down here; much has gone to seed. Though where I've remembered to prune, I'm getting second flushes of color - nice. The zinnias continue to produce new blooms, though more slowly since there are many seedheads I haven't harvested. I've stepped up my pace with them now, as I see some disease starting in places, and want to get to the seeds first before the heads turn to brown mush.

Am thinking of not doing the vegetables next year (well, except for tomatoes and garlic) and just concentrating on the flowers and my patio garden. Just this summer we've gained new neighbors on two sides of us and they're Amish. I'm hatching a plan for possible trades of plants I start for them under my lights in exchange for some produce, or just straight out buying veggies. We've met all the adults and some of the kids - nice people. Looking forward to furthering the acquaintance.

- Alex

Hi Alex,

" oh I see - so you really weren't implying that I'm just another pretty face without a brain in my head "

I would have been crazy to imply that. OK, so you are in Michigan. That is one amazingly complicated state, geographically and otherwise. But, for openers, I will just supply this link. Freeze/Frost Occurrence Data for Michigan

Scroll down on that table looking for the weather station nearest you, or perhaps for the one whose geographic situation is nearest to yours. You might wish to interpolate the data from two or more nearby weather stations.

There is some introductory information about the table's data at the point where you select the state for the data: US Climate Normals Freeze/Frost Data

As I recall, there is an Internet source of more detailed data for temperatures and probabilities other than those shown, but I don't recall where that was, and we probably don't need more detail than those tables show. Hopefully you can find a weather station near you in those tables. There are actually a lot more weather stations in Michigan than I imagined. More later.

ZM

Good gods - what was that I said about being just another pretty face without a brain in my head? That graph is intense. I'll have to give it some time for study. Meanwhile, I think I'll just check the weather station... :)

Spent an hour on the phone today (seriously!) trying to track down propagation mix after my local farm and garden supply informed me that the only way they would order any more for me is if I ordered $600 worth at a time. Well, thank you very much. It bothered me as well that I had called them a week ago to order, and they said they'd get back to me and never bothered to do so. Finally I called one of the local hydroponics supply houses and found that they had an even better deal on Pro-Mix HP. I've avoided going to them before because, well, I've always assumed their main clientele were growers of...something I'm not! Now I'm probably on some surveillance list as having purchased 5 cubes of Pro-Mix. Oh, goody. But the good news is that they have it in great supply when I need more, and it was a heck of alot cheaper than the Baccto Seedling Propagation Mix I was getting at the other place. Plus, it has more perlite in it, which was something I was a bit disappointed about with the last batch of Baccto, the fact that it had so little. So - all for the best after all. Though I'm not especially interested in darkening the door of my former garden store.

Supposed to rain tonight. Looking forward to it. My shitake mushroom logs are loaded with buttons!

- Alex

Hi Alex,

I buy some Miracle-Gro Perlite to add to my Pro-Mix when I think it needs more Perlite (such as when I am re-potting to large pots). When buying Perlite you need to be careful that it doesn't have a lot of "fines" in it, because you don't want Perlite dust in the air, and especially not in you. A couple of years ago I had purchased some bulk Perlite because it was cheaper, but I discovered it had fines in it. So I double-bagged it in a couple of contractor bags, sealed it all with duct tape, and sent it in the trash to our landfill. I did tell the garden store where I bought it that it was unusable because it was hazardous, and that I had sent the whole bag to the landfill. The employee I talked to said he would pass the information on. I don't use Vermiculite, but I understand that some of it can be hazardous to your health.

I'm glad you found a local source of Pro-Mix. That has been a problem off and on for me. I have a 3.8 cubic foot bale of Pro-Mix BX on hand to start my indoor zinnia project with. Home Depot carries half-size bales "seasonally", which for them means in the Spring. I probably should start now locating some more Pro-Mix. It goes pretty fast when I start re-potting to large pots.

We have had several cool nights with temps in the upper fifties. As a result some of my zinnias have starting showing a little color enhancement. The side blooms on that "frosted" zinnia have taken on an entirely different look, very similar to just a plain Whirligig.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

ZM - yeah, I considered buying some perlite to add to the Baccto mix, but never bothered. With this Pro-Mix, I definitely won't need to. What's the difference between the Pro-Mix HP and BX?

Those are two nice blooms on that frosted plant. They still look "frosted" to me, but I know what you mean about the changing weather making a difference in color - am seeing it with some of mine.

About the Freeze tables - geez, I haven't stopped to study them as I am in the middle of one of my quarterly projects. Will have questions, though, I'm sure. My immediate reaction was that it was like reading hieroglyphics. :)

- Alex

Hi Alex,

" What's the difference between the Pro-Mix HP and BX? "

Pro-Mix HP is a High Porosity product containing a much higher Perlite content.

Pro-Mix BX is a general purpose mix with standard porosity

I hand shred my Pro-Mix BX to create a fine textured material suitable as a seed starter. I use quite a bit of seed starter. I add extra Perlite to the BX to get the higher porosity suitable for re-potting. You won't need to purchase Perlite, because your Pro-Mix HP has plenty of it.

" About the Freeze tables - geez, I haven't stopped to study them as I am in the middle of one of my quarterly projects. "

As a starter, just look down the list of Michigan Weather Stations, and tell me which one is closest to you, provided that you recognize the ones that are in your area. They are in alphabetic order and I assume that at least some of their names will be familiar to you. That will give us a starting point that I can interpret for you to get past some of the hieroglyphics to provide you some specific dates for your location. If you are midway between two or more stations, we can interpolate their data. Or just pick one.

I am crossing some of my breeders onto the California Giant zinnias for the express purpose of getting stronger plants into my zinnias. This is one of my typical California Giant blooms.

ZM

ZM -

As a starter, just look down the list of Michigan Weather Stations, and tell me which one is closest to you

Big Rapids is the closest. Taking the moment to look at the list more closely, I think I see where they're going with it. Are they basing these numbers on averages of past temps? Computers - here's an instance of something they actually do make easier - the compiling and comparing of data.

So, if I'm reading this correctly, there's a 50% probability of 32* temps on the 25th, but a hard freeze probably not until October - correct? Though, there's still a 10% probability of 28* hard freeze on the 25th. Well, that's cool. (no pun intended)

Still, not to be taken as gospel, as you say, but more info is more info to work with. Going to be a nice day out there, and I'm stuck in the house. :(

Maybe I can sneak in a moment or two to play/work outside.

- Alex

Hi Alex,

" So, if I'm reading this correctly, there's a 50% probability of 32*
temps on the 25th, but a hard freeze probably not until October -
correct? Though, there's still a 10% probability of 28* hard freeze on
the 25th. "

You've got it. With one tiny amendment. The probabilities are of the first occurrence of that temperature or less on that date. In other words, the 36-degree temperature line could be thought of as a 33 through 36 degree line, with the 32 degree line covering 29 through 32 degrees, and so on. (It could happen that the first really low temperature of the season was 33 degrees.) This stuff can make your head hurt.

And, for your information, here are the Big Rapids station details

Now, if you really want to see some data from the Big Rapids station, on that page, down in the View Station Data area, select the year 2010 in the list (that is your only choice currently) and then click the blue View Data button. The page of data that appears is rather small, but you can make it as large as you want by clicking the "+" zoom in the middle of the black bar at the top of the display. The page you are looking at should look something like this:

While you are "there" you can Print or Download the thing.

Like any picture here in this forum, you can click on that image above to make it larger, hit your F11 key to hide your browser's heading, right click and select "View image", hit Ctrl + to increase the magnification, hit Ctrl - to decrease the magnification, hit F11 to get your heading back, click your Browser Back Arrow, etc.

Anyhow, the advantage of that page is that you now have all those missing probabilities (20%, 30%, 40%, 60%, 70%, and 80%) to "play with". Enjoy.

ZM

PS I'm pretty sure they do use computers to do their "number crunching".

I LOVE The White Sparkler Zinna Posted on the 6th of Sept ZM!

I MUST Say THANK YOU To All The People Posting Photos.....

Ninecrow - the zinnias are winding down now; don't have any particularly nice photos of anything that's not pink - haha, but here are some Fall Equinox shots for your pleasure. One of them does have zinnias in the background.

ZM - we're still frost free and no frost in sight according to the weather report. This is going to mess up the averages on their graphs. :)

Oh, and just for curiosity's sake - this seems to be a tubular-petaled season for me. Don't have a pic of it, but one of my gaillardias has tubular petals as well as the rudbeckia and echinacea.

Here are the Fall pics:

- Alex

Hi Alex,

" ...we're still frost free and no frost in sight according to the weather
report. This is going to mess up the averages on their graphs. :) "

I wouldn't be surprised much if it does. Their data is based on the period 1981-2010 and as far as I can tell, does not account for or predict climate change, other than the past cutoff date of 1981. I think there is good reason to think that actual climate change has occurred in the last decade or so (one statistical confirmation of that goes under the name "Hinge Effect".) I am hoping that our October 30th killing frost last year is a better predictor of what we can expect here in the central east Kansas area than the climate tables.

A cool front came through day-before-yesterday, along with a good rain and a very cool morning this morning. But nothing near a frost. But we have had our last warm-hot weather this year. No longer wearing headbands for sweat. Yeah! These are some zinnia pictures taken the evening just before the cool front. It seems strange already, but I was wearing a sweatband when I took those pictures.

Those petals are now gone, leaving just exposed and hopefully pollinated stigmas. I have saved several dozen green seeds from older blooms on the same plant, and I will be planting a lot of them indoors in a few weeks. Today I will be saving more green seeds from other breeder zinnias for use indoors this Winter.

That scarecrow is creepy. Does it keep the birds away? I have put up a bunch of pinwheels which seem to be somewhat effective at deterring seed eating birds from my zinnia seeds. More later.

ZM

ZM - the red one - love it, yeah! I'm on a red kick lately, I guess. The patio is very red right now, between the marylandicas, the red salvia, the nasturtiums and the gaillardia. Maybe I should use some of my red lotus-cactus in the patio next season. It will be difficult to do crosses between those and the flowers that will be in the corral garden because of the distance. I might just choose self-seeds saved from a few related blooms and not worry too much about hybridizing them (unless they're particularly stunning, of course!). Would be nice to see some of these beauties in a strictly landscaping sense. The zinnia hybridizing bed is pretty, no doubt, with all the colors and shapes, but would win no landscaping awards.

Creepy?! How can you say that about my Fred?! The guy is practically a saint. Animals and birds flock to him - LOL. I should call him Francis.

Well, the forecast says possibly 40 days and 40 nights worth of rain on the way (read that as a week's worth), so I think my plan is to go harvest whatever I can today. I may go ahead and cut the two experimental flowers for the vase treatment - not decided yet.

Later-

Alex

Hi Alex,

" It will be difficult to do crosses between those and the flowers that will be in the corral garden because of the distance. "

What kind of distance are we talking about here? I have always carried zinnia pollen around in small containers of one sort or another. Years ago I used those small square boxes that a few aspirin came in. Currently I use empty dental floss containers, with the "guts" removed. Any number of small containers can be "repurposed" to transport zinnia pollen.

" Well, the forecast says possibly 40 days and 40 nights worth of rain on
the way (read that as a week's worth), so I think my plan is to go
harvest whatever I can today. "

Yeah, I saw on TV that the Great Lakes area is in a big system. You are in for a lot of rain.

It was sunny and cool here today, and the rest of the week is predicted to be rain-less. I exposed stigmas on a lot of tubular petals today. Tomorrow I plan to emphasize putting Razzle Dazzle pollen on those stigmas. The reason for that kind of cross is to get tubular petaled zinnias to have self pollination capability in the form of internal anther bundles, and most of the Razzle Dazzles already have that capability. I have a few Razzle Dazzles that already seem to have exotic genes.

" I may go ahead and cut the two experimental flowers for the vase treatment - not decided yet. "

If you do that experiment, please share the details of your experiences. More later.

ZM

ZM - well, it's still raining. Things are pretty saturated out there, so no garden work this week. Had book appts anyway, so that was OK.

Mostly I've gathered the crosses I've made except for maybe the last couple made just after my original cutoff date of the end of August. Theoretically, those should be mature enough to gather, but as they are on the stems that I intend to use in my water vase experiment, I'm just letting them go for a bit longer. I didn't cut the blooms yet as I said I might back on Monday. Those plants seem healthy enough to let be, though I'm starting to see some powdery mildew on others in the main bed, plus on the marylandicas. So much for they're being resistant - they look worse than the elegans!

Any number of small containers can be "repurposed" to transport zinnia pollen.

You're right, of course, and I even proved it to myself that I could gather anthers "early", as per Joseph's method, before the pollen was powdery, making it that much easier to transport. So, I shouldn't let the distance deter me. And it's not all that far under those circumstances - 100 yds maybe? But it's dark out right now and I'm not going out to pace it off. Might be bears out there. Porcupines. Marauding raccoons. Rabid skunks. Numerous black cats to trip over. (That last one is true enough).

- Alex

Hi Alex,

" Those plants seem healthy enough to let be, though I'm starting to see
some powdery mildew on others in the main bed, plus on the marylandicas.
So much for they're being resistant - they look worse than the elegans! "

I'm also seeing spots of Powdery Mildew and other zinnia foliage diseases. But I must say that I am very surprised that your Marylandicas are showing mildew. Immunity to PM is supposed to be their big reason for being. Is there any way you could be wrong about them being Marylandicas? There are low growing strains of Z. elegans, like the Magellans. Inadvertently confusing Magellans with Marylandicas would be much more plausible than, shudder, having Powdery Mildew on Marylandicas. I am just sayin'. We should get this straight before the television crews start showing up in your garden. Joseph, please explain to Alex that she must be hallucinating. Grin.

My outdoors zinnia project is definitely in the endgame. I have been doing some spraying, but I need to do more. This is a recent picture of a scabious recombinant.

PM on Marylandicas ?? Say it isn't so. Puleeze. For Joseph's sake.

ZM

OK, OK - so maybe I was mistaken. So sue me! LOL. I took another look at the marylandicas (they're Zaharas - that's marylandica, right?) today and didn't see the tell-tale whitening on the foliage that I thought I saw last week. It's more like some disease taking the blooms out prematurely. Here are pics of the Zaharas, followed by one pic of an elegans... violacea - whatever.

and the violacea:

Guess it's some other disease on the Zaharas.

Still raining here. (sigh)

- Alex

Hi Alex,

You make a good point, that of the many diseases that affect zinnias, the Marylandicas are immune to only one, namely Powdery Mildew. Your pictures show that the Marylandicas do have some serious disease problems. That first picture looks like Gray Mold, which is caused by the fungus, Botrytis cinerea. It appears that the Marylandicas are also susceptible to Alternaria Blight, which is caused by the fungus, Alternaria zinniae.

Another disease that looks like your first picture is Watery Soft Rot, which is caused by the fungus Sclerotinia sclerotiorum. That rot starts at the soil surface and works it way up in the plant. However, that one may not occur in Michigan. Right offhand, I don't know of a chemical control for Watery Soft Rot, although there may be some new fungicides that would work. Older sources say there is no chemical control for Watery Soft Rot, and that "clean" growing practices would attempt to simply prevent it. I lost a couple of zinnias whose stems simply died starting near the soil surface, but a "zinnia autopsy" revealed a Stalk Borer as the villain in each case.

Another disease that affects a lot of plants, including zinnias, is Southern Blight, which is caused by the fungus Sclerotium rolfsii. It exists primarily in Southern states, including possibly here, but not in Michigan. We would be on the northern fringe of its area. Southern Blight "has no cure".

I am also concerned about bacterial diseases of zinnias, and need to research them further. Our rainy period may start tomorrow. More later.

ZM

Hi Alex,

I think I saw some very distant illuminations in the North that could have been lightning in Nebraska. Incidentally, on the subject of diseases, I think I will continue to experiment with Physan 20. It has lots of 'cides. Anyhow, zinnia diseases can "sneak up on you". Take, for instance this picture taken maybe two weeks ago (when it was still hot).

Oh well, I need to get some sleep before the storm hits. More later.

ZM

ZM - if it hasn't started raining yet, then batten down the hatches - you should be getting clobbered very shortly. I see a big rain cell heading across Kansas as we speak.

Meanwhile here in the rainforest, we look to be getting a day of, if not sunshine, then at least no rain. Tomorrow, another thunderstorm. But we might be headed out of the rain cycle and into the cold cycle shortly. I see gradually lowering temps on the board for the coming week. It's been surprising going this long without frost. Nice, but then I'll admit there are some other jobs that need doing that would be easier if the garden was finished for the season. We've been getting some work down on the front of the house, and it means stepping in some of the new flower beds. Have had to move pots out of the way as well, so it's looking more like a warehouse than landscaping. Oh well, gotta do what ya gotta do.

- Alex

Hi Alex,

I put some mail in the mailbox a few minutes ago and felt a few drops of rain. It is cool, cloudy, and breezy. No sounds of thunder, though. I'll go out now and try to gather a few more green seeds before it gets wet out there. More later.

ZM

ZM - looked like from the radar that you might have missed that first round of rain - it appeared to be moving off to the north. Hope you got more seeds gathered.

More book appts today, so I won't be out trying to gather seeds in the rain. It was nice having the brief spell of dry, but there's rain forecast today again. John just informed me from the background that the weather prognosticators are predicting a colder than normal winter with more snow than usual. Don't know if they were using the word "normal". What's normal anymore?

- Alex

Hi Alex,

I got caught in the rain early yesterday afternoon,
and it rained off and on again for several hours. Not a huge
accumulation (about 1/4 inch), but I was caught in a sudden heavy
downpour, so it seemed pretty wet to me. Actually I was doing some cool
weather pollination at the time, when I heard a sudden loud noise on the
tin roof of an adjacent farm building, and realized belatedly that
leaving the garden three minutes ago would have been a good idea. Just
to punctuate the moment, there was a sudden brilliant flash and loud
thunderclap immediately overhead. Fortunately that was not
cloud-to-ground lightning. I was still carrying a pollen floret headed
for the house when it was like at the end of a sports victory when the
coach gets a barrel of Gatorade dumped on him. I was instantly drenched
by a cloud dump.

More on the theme of the Fall onset of zinnia diseases, this picture was taken a little more than two weeks ago, and it shows many tell-tale spots.

Hopefully I can get some outdoor garden work done today before another system comes through. More later.

ZM

Good thing that zinnia floret wasn't a good conductor or you'd be getting firsthand experience of what those bugs experience in the bug-zapper! Those sudden thunderstorms can be pretty scary.

We missed out on what was probably one of the drier days yesterday while we were off buying books across the state. Today it's raining again. :(

I spent part of my day bagging the last of those seeds still remaining in their drying cups. If it ever drys out outside, I'll collect more, as there are still selfs that I'd want to keep. Still have not cut the two blooms for the indoor vase experiment.

Florida is not looking good at the moment. Just checked the radar and that's a pretty massive hurricane.

- Alex

I bought zinnia seed around 4 years ago and I've been collecting my own seed and using it ever since. I have not had any of those interesting spidery looking blooms. For the most part my plants still look like conventional zinnias. I do get interesting colors though. Mostly corals which I like and I am probably selecting for by accident these days. I particularly like the white ones I am getting now, because they are so symmetrical. I typically select for a large center disc, because I want my plants to be pretty...but, also useful to beneficials.

Hi Dion,

Welcome to this continuing zinnia message thread. Incidentally, those are great pictures. I look forward to more of your photography.

" I bought zinnia seed around 4 years ago and I've been collecting my own seed and using it ever since. "

Collecting your own zinnia seed is a very good thing to do. I don't know if you have read back far enough in these zinnia threads to know about the green seed technique, but if you haven't, let us know and we will describe it. Or you could read back. This thing has been going on "forever".

" For the most part my plants still look like conventional zinnias. "

That first picture, the red one, is far from conventional. Most zinnia petals have a "nondescript" look on the backsides of their petals, but your red one has a nice white color. I have also seen that in some of my zinnias, and Rosealice (another participant here) has also had several zinnia specimens with white backsides. It is a good look, and since the backside color is so important if the petals are extremely uprolled or tubular, a nice backside color is very desirable to us.

" I typically select for a large center disc, because I want my plants to be pretty...but, also useful to beneficials. "

Since you have already been saving zinnia seeds with a specific goal in mind, you are already an amateur zinnia breeder. Welcome to the "club". We welcome your participation and any of your comments or questions.

Your message thread in the Garden Experiments forum, What are your DIY tests/experiments for pathogens? has potential application here. I am particularly interested in identifying any pathogen that affects my zinnias, outdoors or indoors. I used an old (not very good) conventional microscope with bottom illumination to discover nematodes in some of my indoor seeds that had mysteriously failed to germinate. They were full of little writhing "snakes". Yuck. I know of no good nematicide, but that experience taught me to discontinue my practice of re-using indoor growing media. Prevention instead of cure.

I am contemplating the purchase of a stereo dissecting microscope to study the "goings on" with my zinnias, both indoors and outdoors. I am a big fan of "situation awareness". I have observed the presence of unidentified "micro insects" in my zinnia flower heads. I think I would like my microscope to have an attachment port for my DSLR camera, so I could take pictures or video through the scope. More later.

ZM

Hey, Dion - nice pics! I didn't see a single zebra swallowtail this season, sadly, though there were the usual tiger swallowtails, monarchs and assorted smaller fry. Fewer than last year, though. Hopefully, there'll be more next year.

I like the white one, also. I'd call that color 'vanilla cream' - it looks yummy!

I finally cut the blooms to bring inside for the vase experiment (10-9-16). I chose three very dark scarlets - two with more of a purple tinge while the other leans to the orangier end of the spectrum. The orangier one had already been open some time, so some of those lower petals are no doubt already pollinated by whatever. But the two cooler-toned scarlets were both newly opened - clean slates. If the experiment is really going to work - that is, if I am trying to see if I can successfully keep a bloom alive as a cut flower in a vase for the three weeks it will take for pollinated seeds to mature, then this is really necessary. Originally, I mentioned fudging the data a bit by bringing in already pollinated blooms and allowing them to finish maturing indoors in the vase, but this will be the real clincher, since any pollination going on will have been after they were cut. Hey, it either works or it doesn't - this way I'll know for sure.

They're all together in a mason jar which I'll change out every other day or possibly every day as they age, making fresh cuts off the ends when I think I need to - that is, when it seems like the ends could be closing up from decomposing tissues.

The older orangier bloom is obliging me with lots of pollen. I would have preferred to only use the purplier ones' pollen, but beggars can't be choosers, and this is all for the fun of experiment anyway, really, so I don't guess it matters much. I'll continue to pollinate for as long as the blooms allow me before they start to die. The set-up is under my plant lights, which I've kept going to grow some catnip for the little indoor pampered felines. They are presently upset with us because we selfishly were off buying gutters to hang today, instead of rightfully being here to take them for their leash walks. Bad humans.

- Alex

P.S. This is kind of synchronistic, but on the last book appt., we stopped in a thrift store, as is our usual pattern - any place and every place where the books may be - and John found me a microscope. It's a junior edition type of thing - like what you might have seen in a high school science class, and it was cheap. Growing up, I had access to my father's old med school microscope which wasn't anything high-falutin' either, but still way more sophisticated than this model, but hey! What did I say about beggars? When he showed it to me and asked if I'd want it, I said "Heck, yeah!" :) I'll take a pic later of it and the vase flowers.

Hello ZM,

I have not read about green seed yet, but I plan to set time aside to do some more reading.

Your description of nematodes reminded me of a root maggot problem I had a few years ago. You may want to experiment with African marigolds as a nematocidal companion plant for your zinnias. They have worked well for me in the past. The only problem is that they are a large plant (three feet tall) and distract from the beauty of other flowers.

I bought a veterinary microscope and a dissecting scope in the hopes to be able to better identify disease common to my area. I had high hopes of using it to distinguish between the different fungi and bacteria, however, after getting more into it, I discovered that it is much harder than I originally anticipated.

I learned that there are many kinds of Fusarium and Verticillium etc… that are not pathogenic. So for example, if you are able to get them to sporulate and you can I.D. their conidia as fusarium….it doesn’t mean Fusarium is your problem.

This dissuaded me for a while from continuing my experimentation. I still think there must be easy and cheap ways to go about diagnosing problems though. I have been thinking of other things to try like indicator plants etc.

Hello Samhain10,

Thank you, I am very happy to say I had an abundance of butterflies and bees in my area and I plan to growing milkweed and many other beneficial friendly flowers this coming year.

Dion

Below is an example of a pink that also had white on the other side of the petals...and a few more various, (not so great) pics from around the garden.

Hi Dion,

What a healthy, happy looking mix of veggies and flowers! I like to mix mine as well, though, admittedly this year I have neglected my vegetable beds in favor of the new patio garden and my zinnia beds out in the corral. I realized early on in the season that this was probably going to happen, and so have decided that next year I'm putting the big garden to buckwheat and letting it have a rest. (That will make the bees happy.) So much else to do still with the house. Got the gutters hung yesterday, though. :) And walked the cats. Happy cats.

Meanwhile, back in the closet garden under lights, here are my test zinnias - that's catnip behind them:

and my new toy from Goodwill - this ought to be fun. The 2 lens are 10X and 44X:

- Alex

P.S. Dion - what zone are you in?

I was in zone 7b, but was changed with the new maps to 8a a few years ago. I like to keep my garden in 25-33% flowers. That way I never have any real pest issues anymore. I collect other flower seeds too and I try to experiment with many different flowers.

Last year I tried nigella and campanula for the first time among others. This year I plan on really going for lisianthus.

Hi Dion,

Once again, great pics. That third one, the one that is almost all center with stubby little petals, is quite unique. I have never seen one quite like that before. You mentioned you wanted to emphasize the zinnia centers for the benefit of the "beneficials", which I take to mean butterflies and bees (and possibly hummingbirds). Since the main zinnia attractant is their nectar, and since the primary (possibly only) nectar source is in their pollen florets, zinnias that have a lot of pollen florets are ideal for butterflies, bees, and hummingbirds. The commercial zinnia that is outstanding for producing pollen florets is Zowie! Yellow Flame

As you can see from that link, Zowie Yellow Flame is a 2006 All America Selections winner. As a popular F1 hybrid zinnia, its seeds are quite expensive, but only a few of them would add them to your gene pool. You could cross them with other favorite zinnias and self them for interesting F2s, some of which might be even better at producing pollen florets. And Zowie has Zinnia haageana heritage, like the Whirligigs, so it would help convert your zinnias from Zinnia elegans to Zinnia hybrida.

You get a lot more variation in your zinnias when they are Z. hybrida, which is why I recommend that you also include some Whirligig zinnias in your gene pool. I personally am not a fan of the long "naked" central core that Zowies have, so I don't grow them. It reminds me a bit of a plucked chicken. But, at the present time, Zowie is the ultimate zinnia for butterflies, bees, and hummers. I can get the "yellow flame" color scheme in "regular" Z. hybrida zinnias.

" You may want to experiment with African marigolds as a nematocidal companion plant for your zinnias. "

Nematodes have not been a problem in my outdoor zinnias. I know that, because I routinely pull a lot of my zinnias to cull them, and that lets me see their root systems. I now avoid indoor nematode problems by using only Pro-Mix, fresh from the bale, for my indoor growing medium. Reusing my indoor growing medium was causing problems, with nematodes and other things, so I have absolutely discontinued that practice.

" I bought a veterinary microscope and a dissecting scope in the hopes to
be able to better identify disease common to my area. I had high hopes
of using it to distinguish between the different fungi and bacteria,
however, after getting more into it, I discovered that it is much harder
than I originally anticipated. "

You may yet find those microscopes to be useful. I may not rely on my future microscope(s) to identify zinnia diseases, but I hope they will help me explore. I am curious to see what is in the microworld of my zinnias. I would like to see a pollen grain germinating on a zinnia stigma. Not that I need to see that, but in keeping with my curiosity and desire for "situation awareness". More later. It is cold and wet here in east central Kansas today.

By the way, if you don't mind saying (and I absolutely respect your right for privacy) where are you located? That could be in general terms. I am curious about your growing season and the extent of your growing space. Particularly as it relates to growing zinnias.

ZM

I just checked my records and see that I wrote it wrong above - it was 10-8-16. So here we are on Day 8 and all is looking well with the vase flower experiment. Have not played with my microscope yet. Hopefully it actually works. :)

Have prepared most things in the garden for the coming frost, but then...no frost. Did the poles shift when I wasn't looking? Very strange to go this long without frost. A record for me, I think, here on this property. I'm sort of wishing it would just get on with it, since I've got things I want to do out there, but need to have some of the annuals out of the way. Like, I plan to plant the garlic in what is now the zinnia bed. It's the perfect place for it if Mother Nature would get Her act in gear!

- Alex

ZM - OK, consultation time. I spoke before I had all the facts in hand. R21, the orangier bloom is showing signs of PM. The other two R17s #2 and4 are not. However, it is R21 that is supplying my pollen at present. Only one of the other two has any pollen florets and so far there's been little there.

I have managed to pollinate quite a few petals already, however with R21, so would it be best to go ahead and harvest what seed I can from it and toss it before it has further opportunity to infect the others? I realize it's probably already too late, but would discarding R21 now help to hold off the inevitable for a while longer do you think?

- Alex

This thread comes with a lot of parts!

I would like to try saving some of my zinnia seed for planting next year. It seems like it should be easy enough since the seeds are so large but I find I'm questioning every one wondering if it's pollinated. Would someone mind pointing out which thread I should review?

Rhondaka - since our moderator ZM seems to be otherwise occupied I'll give you a basic answer to your question. Each petal of a zinnia is a potential seed. If by Minnie, you mean small-flowered zinnias, then it will be a little harder to know when they are actually mature enough for picking. But, generally if you wait till the bloom is starting to look old and worn, then it's probably had enough time and you can go ahead and harvest it. Just pull the petals off; the plump base of the petal is the seed. If you spread the seed out on a plate so it can air dry (oh, and don't pick on a wet day or early in the morning, because you definitely want the seed to be as dry as possible so it doesn't mold), or put them in an open container of some sort, then you can store it someplace dry like that for a week or two. By that time, they should feel completely dry and crisp to the touch, and you can store them in plastic baggies or envelopes or whatever. Label them if you want to try to keep track of possible colors, though they won't necessarily come true to that color.

As far as how to tell if a seed has been pollinated, I just scrolled up to August 19th and see that this was when I'd posted pics of some of my zinnia seed. And a little later, I see me and Rosealice showing to ways to air-dry our seeds. So you don't even have to leave this thread. :)

- Alex

P.S. - ZM, wherever you are, never mind about the need for consultation, as the point is now moot. All three of the blooms now have powdery mildew, so I'll just let them go until they start to fail. It's now Day 10 of the experiment, so I'm halfway there. I'm sure I'll get some seed from the venture.

Hi Alex,

Thanks for the response to Rhondaka. I have been a bit busy. I am also saving green seeds, and having some marvelously warm weather to do it in. Zinnia diseases do spread rapidly this time of year.

ZM

Hi Rhondaka,

I see Alex made a good response to your message. By "Minnie seed", I assume you are referring to zinnia seed of some sort. The practice of saving the zinnia seed in the mature green stage is recommended for several reasons. You give seed-eating birds less opportunity to eat them, and you avoid in-head pre-germination that can occur when mature brown seeds experience a rainy period.

As Alex said, the key to knowing whether a green zinnia seed is "good" or not depends on whether it contains a developed embryo or not. She showed pictures of some nice fat green seeds. She showed one nice close-up on blue-lined paper of two good green seeds containing well developed embryos and one infertile empty green seed. The differences are easy to see.

It is actually easier to tell "good" zinnia seeds from "bad" ones in the green seed stage than it is with dried brown seeds, but the same principle of whether it contains a developed embryo or not applies to dried brown seeds.

This is a similar picture of green zinnia seeds from an earlier part of this message series. You can click on the picture for a larger version. (That works with potentially all of the pictures here.)

ZM

Thank you for the responses! My post was supposed to say zinnia and not Minnie. Darn autocorrect! Well,from the photos it seems I have a boatload of empty seeds. Kinda disappointing since they seemed covered with bees and butterflies. Hopefully the remaining blooms will be more productive!

Hi Rhondaka,

" ...from the photos it seems I have a boatload of empty seeds. Kinda
disappointing since they seemed covered with bees and butterflies. "

Actually the bees and butterflies are just after the nectar inside the pollen florets. Butterflies (and hummingbirds) contribute almost no pollination, because their long feeding tube (or beak) can reach down into a pollen floret without disturbing it much. Bees are clumsier at getting to the nectar, and do knock some pollen around. But any pollination that they do is purely accidental.

This might be a good time to suggest that you "be the bee" and do some hand pollination of your own zinnias. Some tweezers or forceps can make it easy to pick pollen florets and rub them on zinnia stigmas. In a few minutes you can pollinate quite a few seeds. And, you can pick which pollen you put on which petals, so you can do intentional self pollinations or intentional cross-pollinations. Anything the bees do is just random accidents. By doing pollinations on several successive mornings you can get a good yield of seeds using plants of your choosing, and you can do a much better job than the bees do.

The details of zinnia pollination have been covered in previous messages, but if you are interested, we can provide more details on zinnia pollination, and post some explanatory photos here.

ZM

Hello everyone,

Every now and again I get a zinnia that has some malformation of the zinnia bloom, like this instance of a smaller bloom coming out the side of a larger bloom.

ZM

Well, I guess you can count last night as the first killing frost, though it was pretty feeble. "Is that the best you can do?!" I'll be pulling up zinnias soon, though not today. Today, I must finish re-laying the brick in the second half of the patio. It had been on the agenda since almost immediately after I did it the first time and saw it get flooded with the first heavy rains because I'd set it too low. But that was before we put the gutter in; I bet that would have fixed the flooding anyway. However - once started, I must finish.

Also, sadly, the zinnia vase experiment appears to be a bust. The first bloom was so bad, that I went ahead and harvested it, checking for seed - nada. There should have been something, I thought, as it was old enough to have set seed before I ever brought it in. But no. I have little hope now for the others, but I will let them sit for the remaining days of the three weeks before giving up.

Looks like I get trick for Halloween instead of treats. :(

- Alex

Hi Alex,

I am working primarily on Fall cleanup in my zinnia beds. Still doing some seed saving, but mainly removing dead weeds and putting them in the chicken run to cover some of the bare ground there. I was preoccupied expanding the area of my zinnia garden this year, and during that distraction some of my zinnia beds became overrun with weeds. But my zinnia garden is now as big as I want it to be, so next year I will be concentrating on growing my zinnias and keeping my zinnia beds reasonably clean.

There are several native plants that act as weeds here in east central Kansas, but for me the standout "worst" one was Giant Foxtail Grass.

Also, a little over a month ago, I finally achieved the "breakthrough" in sharpening my hoe that I have been seeking all these years. I can now sharpen my hoe razor sharp in a couple of minutes, and I do that several times a day, because gardening work can be hard on a "surgically sharp" hoe.

" Also, sadly, the zinnia vase experiment appears to be a bust. "

Just out of curiosity, do the stem ends seem to be under attack by bacteria? That has always been the "weak point" in my vases of zinnia blooms, which rarely last for 2-weeks. More later. We have had some minor cosmetic radiation frost damage, but nothing approaching a killing freeze. And our weather is currently quite pleasant.

ZM

ZM - I know the foxtail is a horror in the garden, but what a beauty in the wild landscape. Happy to hear you have perfected the hoe-sharpening. That will be a great service to you. I, on the other hand, am particularly bad at hoeing. But, happily, I don't have to worry about that for another 6 months or so. Did I mention it was 1" deep out there at the moment? They said it was going to snow, but I don't remember them mentioning accumulation. Oh, and the power just went out about 10 minutes ago. I'm on battery.
Well, I finished re-laying the small patio, and most things are winterized. The patio path and corral garden clean-up can wait.

Just out of curiosity, do the stem ends seem to be under attack by bacteria?

I'd say yes, but then they were already severely weakened with PM, so it's hard to say what the main issue is. I was surprised that I got no seed from the older bloom, though.

- Later, Alex

Hi Alex,

Wow! You have an inch of snow. It is actually somewhat warm here. It looks like Halloween will be warm, too. So our first killing frost will be sometime in November. Climate change may be in effect here. I actually did a little cross-pollinating today. Still mostly Fall cleanup of my North Garden zinnia beds.

In my indoors garden I plan to continue trying to involve "Woolly" genes and "Razzle Dazzle" genes with more conventional flower forms. And I have got to get serious about making my tubular petals capable of self pollination. It's kind of fun popping those tubes to expose the stigmas, but that can't be practical in the long term. The Razzle Dazzle genes do contribute interesting petal ends when crossed with conventional zinnia blooms.

The Razzle Dazzle genes seem to have a propensity for creating different looking petal tips.

" ...do the stem ends seem to be under attack by bacteria? " "I'd say yes, but then they were already severely weakened with PM, so
it's hard to say what the main issue is. I was surprised that I got no
seed from the older bloom, though. "

I'm also surprised about that "no seed" thing. You have had some very well developed green seeds in the past. Better than mine usually are. I guess those particular ones just didn't get pollinated. Incidentally, there are systemic fungicides that will absolutely prevent Powdery Mildew, provided you spray them on every three weeks or so. More later.

ZM

ZM -

Incidentally, there are systemic fungicides that will absolutely prevent
Powdery Mildew, provided you spray them on every three weeks or so.

I know, I know, but - I have this superstitious, almost pathological, aversion to pesticides and fungicides. At the beginning of my garden career, some 30+ years ago, I never used anything but the biological organics, like BT (you know what that is, right? Bacillus thuringiensis) for the cabbage worms. And you can bet I never used Miracle Gro for a fertilizer! But I have slid from the organic wagon. You have to be some sort of totally dedicated, totally involved, maniacal fanatic with lots of time on your hands to keep all the bugs and diseases in check here in this green wilderness. Michigan is beautiful, very green and lush during the growing season...and home to every garden pestilence known to man. i give up. Well, obviously, not completely. I walk a thin line - trying to avoid the poisons, but still using them. So far, I can see no diminution of the frog population - at least not from pesticides. The cats take out more than their fair share, however, though I and John perform countless rescues over the frog season. And snakes - nothing more exciting than a snake in the grass - better than a vole!

But i digress.

I do love that top orangey-mango-y bloom with the toothy petals. The fuller-based, raggedy petals that you've evolved with the addition of your RD genes are something special and unique. Though I suppose my favorites are still the bedheads and some of those aster formed ones you've come up with. Isn't it great that zinnias allow for so much variation that we can all pursue different paths and yet still be talking zinnias?

I'm also surprised about that "no seed" thing... I
guess those particular ones just didn't get pollinated.

I guess this must be the case - maybe due to cooler temps, more wet, and ??? - the mystery factor. I've still got the other two blooms in the jar. They don't look happy, but as I keep cutting the ends to aid water draw, and the tops have not shriveled and wilted, then I'll just let them go till Halloween before I end the experiment.

- Alex

Hi Alex,

" I have this superstitious, almost pathological, aversion to pesticides and fungicides. "

Well, I don't use anything toxic with a residue on our vegetable garden, because I and others are going to eat that stuff. So obviously I wouldn't use any systemics on the veggies. But, for me on the ornamentals, pretty much anything goes, with a preference for systemics. Organic gardening really lost me when they asserted that potassium sulfate was a "chemical" and therefore "bad" and that magnesium sulfate (Epsom salts) was "organic" and therefore "good". Huh? Those two products could come from the same chemical plant.

They had the same sulfate anion and differed only in the cations. Neither of which is toxic. Logic or science or reality was clearly not at play here. And making "chemicals" the bad guys? You take two parts hydrogen and react them with one part oxygen and you get H₂O, by definition a chemical compound and a popular chemical reagent. Clearly water must be a "good" chemical. So there are "good" chemicals and "bad" chemicals. We must need some "official organic authority" to define which are which. That authority would wield a lot of power in our marketplace. You know what they say about "power". Count me out on organic gardening.

But we can agree to disagree on that, and continue on our merry way. I use the systemic fungicide, Tebuconazole (usually in the Bayer Advanced product, "Disease Control for Roses, Flowers & Shrubs") to prevent Powdery Mildew on my indoor zinnias. If I skip the stuff for about 4 weeks, then the PM starts to show up, like in these indoor photos from last year.

" Though I suppose my favorites are still the bedheads and some of those
aster formed ones you've come up with. Isn't it great that zinnias allow
for so much variation that we can all pursue different paths and yet
still be talking zinnias? "

It is great. One of my favorite zinnia flower forms is what I originally called "Dinosaur" or simply "Dyno" for short.

ZM

ZM - we seem to be on the machine at the same time. Just finished my lunch and have not started my next project.

You could argue that those long-petaled semi-double flowers were
"cheating", but if that is what it takes to get to 7 inches and beyond, I
will take that path.

You'd get no argument from me - I can't imagine how it could be argued. However you get there is legitimate in this field as far as I can see.

And don't get me wrong; I just gave my long explanation for why I don't want to use poisons, but still do anyway sometimes. The thing with me is, I don't know from zilch what the real truth of the matter is about some poisonous compounds. I do know or believe that it is possible some chemicals will combine with others to create something even more toxic, or at least more pervasive. Meaning that, as I understand it, some of the chemical poisons are "bad" because they don't just do their job and then dissipate - they make a chemical combination that stays in the soil and/or atmosphere - and here's the worst part - they can be accumulative. I think arsenic is supposed to be one of those. It builds up over time. That's the part that I am ignorant about, and which causing me to have a certain uneasiness about using poisons, and not because of excessive hype spread about by organic proponents. I am a liberal, but I try to look at things logically and balanced. I try to anyway. Gods know I have my own personal prejudices - LOL! Like I totally prefer milk chocolate to white chocolate. I mean, white chocolate - what's that about? Sort of defeats the notion of chocolate.

Humbly but opinionatedly yours,

Alex

Hi Alex,

I totally agree with you about not wanting to use arsenic in any form. Nor would I want to use any of the heavy metals, lead, chromium, mercury, stuff like that. Unlike organic compounds, they can't "decompose" in the soil, and could potentially last indefinitely. And I don't disagree with everything in organic gardening. Compost is a good soil amendment. I consider earthworms to be my friend. But in this day and age I can't understand why any rational gardener would be afraid to use soluble nutrients like Miracle-Gro.

" I don't know from zilch what the real truth of the matter is about some
poisonous compounds. I do know or believe that it is possible some
chemicals will combine with others to create something even more toxic,
or at least more pervasive. "

Have there been any known instances of that actually happening? Another concern is discarded pharmaceuticals finding their way into municipal water supplies. They say that you definitely should not flush unused medicines down the toilet.

ZM

ZM -

Have there been any known instances of that actually happening?

I have read that there are, but don't ask me to cite sources, because I don't remember stuff like that. I'd be hell on a debate team. :) But I'm not trying to have a debate - I totally suck at it (forgive the French); I was only explaining my paranoia. It's based on incomplete data, and because it's not complete, I'm not sure what the truth is - that's all I'm sayin'. This is just me - no need to bother about it.

Anyway, you didn't answer the really important question: dark chocolate or white?

- Alex

Hi Alex,

" Anyway, you didn't answer the really important question: dark chocolate or white? "

By coincidence, I heard that this is National Chocolate Day. I am going to go with the "politically correct" answer of, I like all kinds of chocolate.

Which is sort of true. OK, I do have a preference for milk chocolate, if it is made without the Dutch alkali process. "Natural" cocoa that is made without the alkali treatment retains some delicate flavor elements that can be lost in the Dutch process.

" I'd be hell on a debate team. :) But I'm not trying to have a debate - I
totally suck at it (forgive the French); I was only explaining my
paranoia. "

An aversion to poisons is not paranoia. It's a good survival mechanism. And you can definitely take care of yourself in a debate. As you have proved here many times over, you are no "shrinking violet".

Hello everyone,

Since this message thread has passed beyond the 100-message mark, I have started a new part over at It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 39

See you all over there.

ZM