"I did not have any that looked like the package."

Hi, that seems to be a common response in the various blogs and comments I've seen. Yet when I've seen photos of the Zinders growing in the fields posted by some seed sellers, there is a rather high percent of them. So it is possible in the right environmental conditions. And they are truly lovely.

At this stage my baby Zinderellas have germinated and are about an inch tall, so still a long time away for flowers. While we don't get frosts here, growing conditions in January are minimal. The sun is low, the days are short, and while not cold, it's definitely cooler, so growth is very slow even with supplemental morning and evening LED lighting, ....and flowering is a very long time away.

Hi Cindi,

" I hope the Zinderella zinnias do better for you than they did for me. I did not have any that looked like the package. Please share photos if you have any nice ones. "

Only about one in a hundred Zinderella seeds have produced on-type blooms for me. I have planted several hundred Zinderella seeds, so I have had a few on-type plants.

I will continue to grow Zinderellas, and cross the "good ones" with other zinnias. I think there is a lot to be gained by including scabiosa-flowered zinnias in a zinnia cross-breeding program. You can get specimens that resemble Allium (Flowering Onions), like these specimens.

Those are not my favorite zinnia flower forms, but I do appreciate that they are a bit different.

ZM

Hi meconella,

" Yet when I've seen photos of the Zinders growing in the fields posted by some seed sellers, there is a rather high percent of them. So it is possible in the right environmental conditions. And they are truly lovely. "

I have also seen those photos. However, I am not at all certain that environmental conditions are responsible. I tend to suspect genetic factors. I could be wrong. I will grow some more Zinderellas outside this Spring and Summer. But my indoor space is too limited to gamble with my under-light growing space on seeds that have had a one percent success rate so far.

ZM

Has anyone tried any of the varieties at Peace Seedlings? They have a few I have never heard of. The ones I am going to try are Rainbow Eyes, Yell Fire, and Standing Up.

Hi Cindi,

I have not tried anything from the Peace Seedlings company. I really don't have room to grow all of my own new varieties. As far as I know, the three zinnia varieties you plan to grow, Rainbow Eyes, Yell Fire, and Standing Up are exclusive to Peace Seedlings. I look forward to photos of your zinnias from Peace Seedlings.

This year I am interested in making various crosses between some of my very own newish zinnia flower forms, like these. As before, click on the photos to see larger versions.

Each of those have different styled petal forms, which lead to different flower forms, and there is no telling what crosses between those forms might produce in the way of new zinnia flower forms. And if those crosses produce new zinnia flower forms, well then I will make crosses between them.

ZM

I hope one day to be able to purchase some of your zinnia seeds. But for now, I will have to do with other new ones I can find.

Your new zinnia forms are beautiful. I cannot wait to see your crosses this year.

CP

Those are most Interesting Zinnias you have developed ZM. Looking at various seed selections I've not seen anything like them. I especially like the bottom one. How many years have you been breeding Zinnias?

Cindi, I've not purchased anything from Peace seedlings. I have heard that sometimes seed places re-name existing varieties. With Zinnias, it's difficult to tell just by looking at photos, unless they are extremely visually different like ZM's or the Zinerellas.

My currently growing Zinnias are doing well. We are in a warm-ish, sunny time right now. When I was closely looking at my plants, I noticed a few of the larger ones actually have flower buds beginning to form. About a quarter of an inch in diameter, and still buried by the upper leaves. I also looked at the later sown queen varieties and much to my surprise, a couple of those also have tiny buds, though about half the size. I never dreamed they'd form so fast, esp in January!

As other Zinnia seed packets of different varieties arrived in the mail, I planted some of them too. I currently have about 200 seeds/seedlings in various stages of germination and growth. Not sure what I'm going to do with them all, lol. I guess it's getting close to that time of the day when I have to cart in their trays to be put under the lights......

Hi meconella,

" How many years have you been breeding Zinnias? "

I started breeding zinnias as a serious hobby in 2005.

(That is a clickable link)

" I especially like the bottom one. "

That is one of my favorites, too. Those thin tubular petals kind of remind me of an underseas reef sea anemone.

This little guy seems to like the narrow tube petals as well.

Some of the tubular style petals have an interesting closed-end feature.

The closed end petals have a different look.

I have no idea where I am going with those. Apparently at least some of them have internal anthers which give them the ability to self-pollinate. Weird.

ZM

Interesting results, ZM. How stable are the results? Meaning, if you get seed from any of your creations, do any of them breed true?

In another old GW thread on zinnias, I read about Zinnia feminate flowers that breeders use - I had no idea those existed. Are you able to utilize any of those in your program?

REcently I purchased a new variety of Zinnia developed by an 'elite' breeder (Floret) , variety unicorn. Pricey seed, but the colors were appealing. My goal is to grow some up, do more selection for the ones I personally like. I don;'t think this variety is totally stablilzed, ...and I don't really care. I did plant some seed this past week and am finding a very low germination rate - only about 30%, though more could come up. (Other Zinnia varieties planted at the exact same time, same mix, kept on the very same tray, same treatment, have given the usual 80% or so.) Anyway, I planted a few more this morning - 2 nine cell little containers- and this time planted only petal seeds in one, and floret seeds in the other. Just curious to see what happens. I would have planted more, but wanted to save some of the seed for warmer weather - even with our 80* weather this week, it still is January, lol.

Meconella,

I have recently purchased some Unicorn zinnias from Floret. Thank you for the info about the germination rate for those. I live in North Carolina so I will not be sowing them for a while.

The Peace Seedlings appear to be breeders so hopefully those seeds will be different from others that I have.

I have seen places that have varieties of seeds that are just color packs of other varieties.

Thanks again for the info on Unicorn zinnias. I think they would make a nice zinnia to breed with something else.

CP

Hi CP.

Have you seen the photos of unicorn on this blog? I prefer these to the 'official' photos on the Floret website. I think this lady grows in her backyard and has said she has morning sun and afternoon shade, and her other Zinnias do appear to be slightly leggy, though beautiful. https://freshcutky.co/2020/08/24/florets-unicorn-mix-zinnias-theyre-gorgeous/

When I say I only got about 30% germination, that is just my results for one small planting of 27 seeds. In other circumstances and by someone else, it could be better - which is what I am hoping. Though I also planted 18 of her Little Flower Girl seeds, exact same way as the Unicorns, and all but 1 or 2 of the seeds have germinated in less than a week. So....

More later

Meconella,

I had not seen that blog. Wow, those flowers do not look like those on Floret's site. I would love to see other photos from other people. Now I am very curious as to what they will look like.

Thank you for sharing the blog.

CP

The photos in that blog are the only other photos of the Unicorns I've seen. The Floret Unicorn photos do not have any green flowers shown. ??? I wonder if there are some Queen Lime variety genes in their history. Some of those also have lavender centers. I am greatly looking forward to see how all of these do in my location. I have a few of the Queen Lime series also in bud now, in containers, in full winter sun.

I'm thinking when some of these various seedlings (Unicorn and Queen series) are ready to move up, I'll transplant into 4 inch pots so I can bring them in and under the lights if our weather turns cool again. Which it likely will.

I just found some photos on Instagram. Just type in unicornzinnia and there is a page with photos that people have posted. There are some really pretty ones.

CP

Thank you so much!! It looks as if the ones least typical are the one's shown on the floret site. I'm so looking forward to have these bloom. Back to look at more. : )

Zen Man,

You might have mentioned this before and I apologize for asking. But, what are the soil requirements for growing zinnias? I live in NC and my soil is slightly acidic. I also grow zinnias in pots. Are there some good nutrients to add to soil that are good for zinnias?

Hi Cindi,

" But, what are the soil requirements for growing zinnias? I live in NC and my soil is slightly acidic. "

Zinnias prefer a pH in the range of 6.3 to 6.8, so your slightly acidic soil should be fine.

" Are there some good nutrients to add to soil that are good for zinnias? "

I feed my outdoor zinnias with water soluble Miracle-Gro Tomato food as a foliar application, a significant amount of which drips off of the foliage onto the soil where it is available to the roots. The Miracle-Gro Tomato food formula has a higher Magnesium content than some of the other Miracle-Gro formulas. Magnesium is a component of chlorophyll.

For my zinnias in pots indoors, I use Premier Pro-Mix instead of soil. Pro-Mix is a sphagnum peat moss based product that has a only small amount of nutrients. I don't use Miracle-Gro soluble nutrients in the Pro-Mix, because the Miracle-Gro formulas contain a significant amount of Urea as a nitrogen source, and the Pro-Mix doesn't contain the soil microbes necessary to break the urea down into the ionic forms necessary for absorption by roots. So I use urea-free soluble nutrients that are intended for orchids, like Better-Gro Orchid Plus, that provide nitrogen in soluble forms other than urea. I include some Calcium nitrate in my indoor zinnia nutrition, because the Pro-Mix has only a small amount of Calcium.

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Hello Meconella,

" Interesting results, ZM. How stable are the results? Meaning, if you get seed from any of your creations, do any of them breed true? "

I get a lot of seeds from my "creations" and a fraction of them do "breed true". From practical experience growing zinnias for most of my life, I have come to know that a significant percentage of my home-hybridized zinnias breed BETTER THAN TRUE. My zinnia breeding program is based on Sturgeon's law, that 90 percent of everything is crap.(That is a clickable link)

Which means that I cull my zinnias at a very high rate, and concentrate on that 10 percent or so that is exceptional or even a break-through. I want my zinnias to breed better than true, and a dependable small fraction of them do that very thing. For my purposes, as long as I continue to "improve" my zinnias, "breeding true" is not an immediate objective. But a usable fraction of them do "breed true" or better.

Commercial zinnia packets come from fields of zinnias where bee pollination is used to increase the seed yield (zinnias will produce a reasonable yield of seed in the absence of bees or other so-called "pollinators") and a significant fraction of those seeds are actually random F1 hybrids with other zinnias in that field, courtesy of the bees. A significant fraction are also "selfs". But you will get some natural variation in the zinnias from a commercial seed packet. You may or may not notice it, because some of that variation can be rather subtle. The concept of "breeding true" is subject to interpretation. Sturgeon's Law rules!

ZM

Hello again, Meconella,

" In another old GW thread on zinnias, I read about Zinnia feminate flowers that breeders use - I had no idea those existed. Are you able to utilize any of those in your program? "

Not that it matters particularly, but they are usually called "femina" zinnias. Commercial F1 hybrid zinnia seed production depends on their usage. They are a strain of zinnias that doesn't produce any pollen, and have only degenerate petals consisting mainly of stigmas waiting to be pollinated. Commercial F1 hybrid zinnia production alternates rows of a selected inbred uniform male strain that produces pollen that fertilizes the stigmas of the feminas in their rows. I think most feminas are produced via tissue culture micropropagation. That is why F1 hybrid zinnia seed is rather expensive.

I have had variations of femina zinnias in my garden produced unintentionally by growing seed from selfed commercial F1 hybrid zinnias. I have no use for them, because I "be the bee" and hand pollinate my zinnias to produce my own F1 hybrid zinnia seed.

ZM

Thanks, ZM for the explanation of F1 production and correct terms. I'd guess that not only the feminas are the result of tissue culture, but also the 'uniform males' (after initial selection). This year I purchased a wide variety of zinnia varieties, and I avoided any F1s (as far as I can tell) because I was intending to save my own seed of the plants I like.

Over the years I really have not been drawn to growing zinnias because I'm not as attracted to the traditional dense, pom-pom type of infloresces. The typical Benary Giant/Oklahoma 'beehive' type. And I also prefer less intense colors though some are very nice. A few years ago Burpee was selling a variety called Forecast which were singles in more muted colors, and I really liked the look of those. But upon growing them, it became apparent the seeds were quite variable giving many doubles and stronger colors. I didn't realize at the time how plastic zinnia flowers could be.

And now, after seeing the range of relatively newer colors and forms (such as the Queen Lime series, and more recently the Floret Unicorns), I'm quite inspired to grow and then select via seed-saving the individuals that I really like. And hand pollinating? Who knows. Then toss in apparently being able to grow them in winter here....

So my current plan, at least in Jan/Feb/March is to grow them in pots (4 inch or even gallon) on the patio, off the ground (bunny deterrent) in the warmest spots, and if a plant has a flower I like, to cut back the main stem for cuttings, and then allow the side stems to produce seeds, perhaps covering some with mesh bags to keep indiscriminate pollination to a minimum. That is the current plan.

Right now, from seed started in December, I've got plants with flower buds now close to a half inch in diameter. I never dreamed this could happen so fast.

I am looking at getting some of the dwarf (but large flower) zinnias for the front of my rose garden. I see there is a Dreamland and a Magellan series. Could someone compare the two for me.... is one healthier than the other.... does one produce more flowers.... do they both draw in butterflies....

I am in Zone 10 South hot humid Florida.

I have been growing the taller ones called Parks picks. They do pretty well for me... they eventually die out from disease no matter if I spray or not... Probably because it is so humid and rains a lot..... but these are too tall to have in my rose garden. I just wanted a small border in front that blooms alot, stays pretty healthy and brings more butterflies.

Thanks for input

Sharon

Hi Sharon,

" I see there is a Dreamland and a Magellan series. Could someone compare the two for me.... is one healthier than the other.... does one produce more flowers.... do they both draw in butterflies.... "

Magellans and Dreamlands are similar. The primary difference between Magellans and Dreamlands is that the Dreamland plants grow 10 to 12 inches high and the Magellans grow 12 to 14 inches high, and the Magellan blooms might range slightly larger in diameter than the Dreamlands. So the Magellans are a little larger and a little taller. The seeds of both are expensive. You might try a few of each and make your own comparison. Preciosa is a new landscape zinnia that is similar to them.

ZM

I just set up the box I use for propagating things. Seeds and cuttings. It's a large Styrofoam open box, 3 X 1.5 ft and a foot deep, with 2 inch thick sides. I found it along the road years ago, and it's been really great for starting some seeds, and many cuttings. I have covered the top with glass, but now with young cats in the house, it will be a rigid, 'clear' plastic. In the past I've used an incandescent light bulb to keep the temp at about 80*F for pepper seeds. But since this is going to be used for Zinnia Cuttings, I'm thinking something lower might be better. Maybe 70*?

My Zinnias outside are doing surprisingly well. Most likely because of the good sun, and being in black plastic pots keeping the soil warmer. I did plant a few of the extras in the ground, and while the weather has been warm, the soil isn't, so they mostly are just sitting there. For the next couple months, anything new will go into gallon pots. 4 inch are too small for my purposes, and 2 gallon too large. I just moved up a half dozen Benary Giants into 1 gallons, so we'll see how that goes.

Some of the Zinnias are about to break bud. A couple are showing the slightest glimpse of red or orange in the indented centers. And others lighter. But these are Zinnias of unknown background, and I'm thinking they'll be good to practice making cuttings so some of the kinks will be worked out. Not sure when. I'm torn between simply wanting to see an open flower and experimenting...

Those that I'm growing in the Queen Lime series (in 2 gal pots) are also doing well. Nice short internodes and stocky stems. They've got nice side branches growing too, so I might try some of those for cuttings. But I also want to wait to see what the natural variability in them is. I only want to propagate those I really like. These I think are pretty stable. The Unicorns from Florets most likely are going to be all over the map. (Judging from photos) But that's the fun of it. : )

Any tips for starting cuttings ZM? I"ll be using 1:1 perlite/peat mix, cuz i'ts what I have. I might also try using 1.5 inch soil blocks, as well as other containers. I saw some photos of Zinnia cuttings in soil blocks, and was intrigued. Good aeration, as well as being able to see when they had rooted. They appeared to be one node cuttings as well. Though I'm not sure that's large enough.

Hi Meconella,

" Any tips for starting cuttings ZM? "

The higher 80-degree temp might speed up root development. I use humidity domes to maintain 100% humidity for my zinnia cuttings. Click on the photo to see a larger version.

The humidity domes match the PermaNest trays I use for bottom watering. I do dip the end of the cuttings in rooting hormone before placing them in the medium in a pot. In this particular setup the light fixtures below (and room temperature) replaced a heating mat for warmth. Rootlets might start to show in a week, but it takes two weeks to establish a good root system.

ZM (not associated with any product mentioned)

ZenMan,

I remember you saying that you use Physan 20 for foliar feeding your zinnias. Do you know if it can be used to pour on soil in a flower bed?

At the end of the summer last year, several of my zinnias had mildew on the leaves. I did pull the plants up and took them away. I would like to do something to the soil where the zinnias were located. Would Physan be something good to use?

Thank you for all of your expert advice. I am getting excited that spring will be here soon and I can see if my seeds that I pollinated will sprout and grow.

I have never thought of growing zinnias from cuttings. Interesting.

CP

Hi Cindi,

Physan does act as a wetting agent. I use it as a wetting agent, about 1 tablespoon per gallon, when applying a solution of Potassium bicarbonate as a foliar spray to my zinnias. That is an effective treatment for Alternaria leaf spot, Anthracnose, Botrytis, Cercospora leaf spot, Downy mildew, Fly speck, Fusarium, Monilinea fruit and blossom rot, Penicillium spp., Phoma, Phomopsis blight, Phytophthora, Powdery mildew, Scab, and Septoria leaf spot on my outdoor zinnias. And it is an economical substitute for the the product called GreenCure(that is a clickable link) The active ingredient in GreenCure is Potassium bicarbonate, along with a proprietary wetting agent.

" I would like to do something to the soil where the zinnias were located. Would Physan be something good to use? "

This is a website that recommends Physan 20 for use on seeds, seedlings, and cut flowers

(that is another clickable link)

It is my understanding that Physan 20 decomposes in garden soil, so that it does not "build up" with repeated use.

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Thanks FM. Your humidity domes are extremely nice. Looks like a good set-up with the lights as heat beneath.

I"m going to try to keep the temp in my chamber between 70 and 80 when I am around. There is a heat mat in the bottom, and it can get the chamber up to the high 70s easily. But I don't like to leave it on at night unattended. In the morning it was in the low 60s. Not ideal, but that's how it is. During the day sunlight hits the clear-ish top, and inside now, from only the sun, it's in the mid 70s. I think it would be better to try to keep the temperature fluctuation as narrow as possible.

Just now I put a tray of experimental cuttings (11) into the chamber from the Queen Lime series. I decided to use mesh cups, 3 inch, because I wanted better aeration to the root area. I'll mist them frequently to keep as close to 100% humidity as possible. I even tried some split stem cuttings, each with a lovely side shoot at the node.

No rooting hormone. I do have some old rootone, but I never thought that worked. Also some old dip n' grow, but it too is old. That worked on roses, I think, but made no difference on blueberries and other things. If Zinnias root as easily as it appears, maybe it's not needed.

Hi Meconella,

" I"m going to try to keep the temp in my chamber between 70 and 80 when I am around. There is a heat mat in the bottom, and it can get the chamber up to the high 70s easily. But I don't like to leave it on at night unattended. In the morning it was in the low 60s. Not ideal, but that's how it is. "

My heating mats all came with temperature controllers. You push the temperature sensor of the controller into a typical pot and rotate the dial of the controller to the temperature you want and the controller turns the power on and off as required to remain the set temperature in the pot you chose as "typical". Obviously the heating mat cannot refrigerate, so if the room temperature is higher than your set-point temperature, it can't do anything about that.

ZM

I have an 'external thermostat' - but I keep it on an extra fridge to keep temps at about 55* for wine and cheese and other things I want to just keep cool. Fortunately here our temps are usually warm enough that simple, temporary measures suffice for various plant experiments. My current modified set-up now uses inexpensive LEDs on top of glass lids for light, and their gentle heat keeps inside the box at about 75 degrees on a day with cloud cover. I use the heat mat in the bottom for initial warming in the morning to bring it up from about 60*. An acceptable range. On days with sun, it will be warmer. This should be good for germination as well. If I lived in a cold climate, or with longer winters, I'd definitely have a better set up.

I currently have about 20 practice cuttings to work out the kinks for Zinnias. I'm so looking forward to making more cuttings, but I just don't have the biomass right now to make a lot more. I also want to see the blooms to make sure I'm selecting types I want. As it's currently set up, my chamber can hold about 30 cuttings. Maybe more if I rearrange the 'furniture' inside.

ZM, how long has a specific genotype lived? Meaning, if you keep taking cuttings from a particularly desired plant, how many generations of cuttings have you been successful? Zinnias are said to be annuals, but if you keep successive clones going over winter/spring/summer etc, technically that might not be so.

Hi Meconella,

" how long has a specific genotype lived? Meaning, if you keep taking cuttings from a particularly desired plant, how many generations of cuttings have you been successful? "

I don't suspect that there is a limit to how many generations of zinnias you could grow from cuttings. Myself, I have tried only two generations. I have successfully grown cuttings of zinnias from cuttings of zinnias. All the zinnias in this photo were cuttings from a single zinnia.

My second generation of cuttings had to be grown indoors because it didn't occur to me to take cuttings from my cuttings until fairly late in the season. I was growing those cuttings in a breezeway between the house and the garage when that area became "infected" with thrips and, at that time, I had no idea what a thrips was until after their population explosion wiped out all of the zinnias I had in that breezeway. I opened both doors of the breezeway and let clouds of thrips fly out into a freezing Maine Winter night.

" Zinnias are said to be annuals, but if you keep successive clones going over winter/spring/summer etc, technically that might not be so. "

I had heard it said that since zinnias are annuals they might have a genetic programmed death that would limit how long you could keep one going. I have seen no evidence of that. I think that the biochemistry of setting viable seeds does seem to kill the branch that the seed set is occurring on. This triploid zinnia plant eventually had about a hundred fresh looking blooms on it when a killing frost killed the plant.

And most of its seeds were "plump", indicating potential growth. But apparently the triploid zinnia plant could produce those seeds without any strain on its nutrition. The biochemistry of zinnias is an interesting subject, and my studies in that direction have barely scratched the surface.

The limiting factor about growing zinnias from cuttings is that when you see a really nice zinnia that you would like to grow a lot of, and you start taking cuttings from it, you "run out of zinnia" before you have obtained a large number of cuttings. For that reason, I am developing an interest in the micropropagation of zinnias using tissue culture. Learning that will be an interesting expansion of my zinnia hobby.

ZM

I don't suspect that there is a limit to how many generations of zinnias you could grow from cuttings. Myself, I have tried only two generations. I have successfully grown cuttings of zinnias from cuttings of zinnias.

I'd guess the same thing. My plan, if there are specific flower forms/color that I especially like is to take cuttings, and perhaps cuttings of cuttings. No reason to not try. If one did that long enough however, assuming no disease or other damage, it might be possible for some sort of genetic drift to occur. If I am remembering correctly, the classic peace rose 'developed' decades ago, only reproduced via cloning, slowly over time lost it's color vibrancy. The peace rose I planted at my first house was not as magnificent as the old peace rose that my mom had. So there might be limits. But whose going to keep cloning a 'annual' Zinnia for decades? I guess you never know.

I had heard it said that since zinnias are annuals they might have a genetic programmed death that would limit how long you could keep one going. I have seen no evidence of that.

In my area, there are things that are commonly called 'annuals' that arent really. As long as it doesnt freeze, they just keep going, blooming and fruiting. To name a few from my own yard - tomatoes, peppers, scabiosa, lima beans. With respect to zinnias, I keep reading 'good production into Oct or Nov until the first frost'. Well, no frost here, and my pampered plants sown in Dec are looking better than some photos I've seen of some from mid-summer. But my zinnias are very pampered and not in the ground.

If the main purpose of a annual plant is to flower and set seed for the next generation, it makes no sense (to me) if it were programmed to just die if conditions are still good. Same with dead-heading. A plant might look better with old heads removed (to non seed savers), but if conditions are still good, why not just keep blooming?

The limiting factor about growing zinnias from cuttings is that when you see a really nice zinnia that you would like to grow a lot of, and you start taking cuttings from it, you "run out of zinnia" before you have obtained a large number of cuttings.

I can easily see that being the case. Perhaps easier here because of our much longer season. Growing things inside is definitely more difficult, and prone to problems. Even in natural sun, by the time a seed is planted till a flower forms and you decide you want to clone it, weeks have passed. And then, how much of the plant do you want to harvest for cuttings, if saving seed is also a goal.

ZM, if you do try the tissue culture route, good luck.

I did notice this morning, that after a few days of rain and wind here, that one of my zinnia in a 4 inch pot, had blown over so the stem was horizontal. It's side branches were more developed than others of the same generation. The terminal bud was still intact, but now forming a flower. I wonder if tipping a plant onto it's side might inhibit hormonal apical dominance and allow more side shoots to develop for taking cuttings.

Hello Meconella,

" If I am remembering correctly, the classic peace rose 'developed' decades ago, only reproduced via cloning, slowly over time lost it's color vibrancy. "

I don't think that Peace rose has lost its color vibrancy.

There have been several "sports" that differed a lot from the original Peace rose.

(That is a clickable link) So I think it is possible that zinnias could also produce "sports" in a prolonged period of clonal propagation. And some of those zinnia sports might be considered to be new cultivars.

" it makes no sense (to me) if it were programmed to just die if conditions are still good. Same with dead-heading. A plant might look better with old heads removed (to non seed savers), but if conditions are still good, why not just keep blooming? "

I agree. We should keep an open mind on the feasibility of propagating zinnias indefinitely by cuttings.

" Growing things inside is definitely more difficult, and prone to problems. Even in natural sun, by the time a seed is planted till a flower forms and you decide you want to clone it, weeks have passed. And then, how much of the plant do you want to harvest for cuttings, if saving seed is also a goal. "

I agree. Inside growing eliminates natural enemies to pests that are kept in check outdoors. And the trade-off between harvesting cuttings vs harvesting seeds is interesting. Incidentally, I have noticed genetic variations in zinnias that I have grown in the past. I believe that zinnias are capable of some unheard-of variations, that can "belong" to a single new strain of zinnias.

(Click on the photo thumbnail to see the larger version.) It is hard for me to envision how that zinnia could come from any commercial seed packet. There aren't any commercial zinnia varieties that even resemble that. However, I can't see how that flower form has any advantage at all to that zinnia in a competitive growing environment, like occurs with native plants. (Zinnias were once native plants--wildflowers.)

There is a lot to learn about zinnia genetics. Zinnia DNA strings have specific sequences of Adenine, Guanine, Thymine, and Cytosine that code as genes, but separating many of those "genes" are partial sequences, many of whom, perhaps all of whom, consist of gene fragments from prehistoric genes. Hybridization of hybrids may recombine some of those gene fragments with other gene fragments to recreate viable original "lost" genes, or create altogether new genes. Ancient lost traits may be restored, or wholly new traits may be created. The key to that is lots of cross pollination. Which is relatively easy to do with zinnias.

" I wonder if tipping a plant onto it's side might inhibit hormonal apical dominance and allow more side shoots to develop for taking cuttings. "

That certainly sounds like a worthy series of experiments to do.

ZM

The Peace rose has been around for over a half century with likely millions of copies being made. It's no longer patented (if it ever was) so there would be many people in many places propagating it. Yes, there are several official named variations, but I also wouldn't be surprised if over those decades there wouldn't have been some other degradation from the original.

And the trade-off between harvesting cuttings vs harvesting seeds is interesting.

It is a definite decision. With my current plants, I've just decided to go for increasing the sheer numbers of plants via cuttings from the few that are large enough to take cuttings from. With plants grown from commercial seed, it's not horrible if the plant is ruined (if it would be) because it's not a rare thing. Just buy more when they become available. With the less common varieties I'm really interested in growing, i still have more than half the seed and am just waiting for warmer weather. But with a home-developed hybrid, that would be a more difficult decision. Some of yours are definitely unique.

Hi Meconella,

" ...but I also wouldn't be surprised if over those decades there wouldn't have been some other degradation from the original. "

One person's "degradation" can be another person's "improvement". Actually, "bud sports" do actually occur in zinnias. Many times I have seen a zinnia plant with one branch significantly different from the rest of the plant. And those differences are indeed "genetic", which means that seed saved from that branch will contain the factor. Zinnia seeds typically do have a lot of variation, but the branch sport genetic factor will be included in the mix of factors in the seeds from that branch.

Incidentally, I do use a rooting hormone to help root my zinnia cuttings. Dip n Grow is a brand I like.

You might eventually want to dabble in Tissue Culture as a means of the micropropagation of zinnias. There are a couple of introductory sources of interest. Kitchen Culture Kits is a website of interest. And Amazon has a book, Plant Tissue Culture: A Home-Based Guide that has a lot of pertinent material. (Each of those three green bold areas are clickable links).

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Roots from cuttings sighted in 2 cups - in less than a week! How cool is that? I'm using net cups for better aeration, and two cups already had baby roots showing. Could be more - I didn't look at many.

I am keeping the temp in my rooting chamber as close to 70* as I can. When I let temp get higher, the leaves began to wilt. Probably because my plants, in January, have been adapted to cooler temps than summer temps.

I can now hardly wait till some of the harder to obtain seeds get large enough to take cuttings from. Probably a month away I'd guess.

Zenman hope you are well in these strange times. Any neat/unusual Zinnia progeny or genetic surprises or breakthroughs produced over the winter? Photos?

Has anybody heard from Zenman??

nope, I guess he will be posting as soon as he has some updates on his zinnias.

How about everyone else, has anyone sowed zinnia seeds this spring? I will be sowing mine this week or next

I just sowed Oklahoma mix last week 🤗

Hello everyone,

I am fine, and planting some zinnias indoors. You don't need to worry if I bite you, I have had my shots.

My indoor zinnia project is keeping me busy. No spectacular photos right now, but I will post something soon to document my progress, or lack thereof.

ZM

Last year I purchased Parks Pick zinnias. They did great in my Florida garden. They stayed pretty healthy for the longest of time. To my understanding they are really a Benary Giant type. Most of the flowers were 5 inches across and very double. I saved my seeds. I did not do my own pollinating but left it to the bees. I know that bees can carry pollen from a great distant, I do not know of anyone one else actually growing zinnias here locally. So I thought when the bees cross pollinated my zinnias they would be some derivative of the Benary Giant.... the seeds that I collected and planted are just now starting to bloom... however, the flowers seem very small... will they get large as the plant matures... or did I get something else that isn't going to be large....

As you can see they are not only smaller, but have less petals.. will this change as the plants matures... I kind of regret not actually purchasing the real Park's Picks because I like the fuller larger flower.....

Hi Sharon,

Well, those zinnias are disappointing. Smallish and rather single blooms. Apparently your bees are not very good at pollinating zinnias. I prefer to "be the bee" myself. Pollinating zinnias doesn't take much time, and is rather easy to do. You have a long growing season in Florida, so you have plenty of time to replant your zinnias. You will be happier with "the real thing", that is Benary's Giants.

Or, you might want to experiment and try the Gigantica Zinnias at Hazzard's Seeds (that is a link you can click on). The heirloom California Giants (sometimes called "Giants of California") are also still fairly good from some sources, after something like a century after their introduction. I like the spoon shaped petals that you can get in some of the California Giants.

A lot of zinnia strains need some re-selecting to restore their original quality. That is something you could do, with that "be the bee" thing.

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Hello all! I've started growing zinnias and decided I'd like to try my hand at making my own types. We had some really neat bi-color surprises from saved seed last year, and when I found your past threads I was hooked! You guys have really put together some amazing information! I'm wondering if any one has experience mixing with the candy stripe style? If so, did you have any luck passing on the stripes to colors other than yellow or white backgrounds, or making the stripes something other than red/pink? These are what I'm starting with: candy cane zinnias

Hi Sharon, those look a lot like the Lilliput mix I'm growing. They're readily available from the big box stores, maybe a neighbor is growing those and they crossed with yours through some bees? They're cute, but I'd also be totally bummed out expecting some giant blooms! I'm curious, do you know if the seeds you planted came from same flower head? It's really interesting that they all came up small when their parent plants were so large.

-kc

Hi KC,

" If so, did you have any luck passing on the stripes to colors other than yellow or white backgrounds, or making the stripes something other than red/pink? These are what I'm starting with: candy cane zinnias "

Yes, I started crossing using both Candy Cane and Peppermint Stick varieties, and you can get some interesting new combinations with both stripes and dots. However, I had a surprise specimen show up that must have been a bee cross. You can click on the photo to see it larger.

Notice that the pollen florets are not fuzzy yellow starfish, like usual, but also have petal color, including the stripes and spots. It occurred to me that the striped spotted effect looked a bit like an odd disease of some sort, and I didn't want my future zinnia patch to look like it had the measles or some odd "plant pox" due to accidental pollinations by bees and such, so I discontinued my stripes and spots project.

However, if you want to pursue that effect, there are strains of Peppermint Stick that have a wider selection of colors than the Candy Canes. You can get some new effects making cross pollinations with striped and spotted zinnias.

ZM

Oh wow, thank you for sharing the photo - I love it! The petal colored florets look a little like the zinderella poofs. I can't quite tell from their promo photos, but are their fluffy parts actually petal colored florets like yours?

I'll definitely check out the peppermint mixes, thanks!

Hi KC,

" I can't quite tell from their promo photos, but are their fluffy parts actually petal colored florets like yours? "

You are very observant. The fluffy parts of the Zinderellas and other scabiosa flowered zinnias are indeed colored modified florets, with internal anther bundles that pretty much guarantee that the attached seed is selfed.

Many of the scabiosa flowered zinnia blooms have some "guard petals" at the base of the bloom, and those are more or less conventional, with a female receptive stigma that will accept pollen from an external source. Much of my early zinnia experimentation involved crossing scabiosa flowered zinnias with other kinds of zinnias. I now need to cross scabious types with my tubular petaled variants. Can you imagine what this tubular specimen might produce when crossed with a Zinderella? Time will tell. (Click the pic to see it larger.)

It's kind of sad that the best white is inside those petal tubes. There are a lot of variations in zinnias, which make for an almost unlimited number of different crosses you can make with them.

ZM

Greetings, Zensama!

It's been a long while since i've visited. Hope all is well with you and yours. Have thrown myself completely into the daylilies and have not been working with other hybridizing at all, but as i recently went digging through my seed drawers for zinnia seeds to send to a fellow gardener, it got me revisiting the joys of zinnia hybridizing and my fun time here with you and friends. Will probably do some direct seeding of zinnias in my little front patio garden because hard to beat the instant color and drama of zinnias. Will probably not be able to resist a few crosses to keep things going - lol. New blood and all that, dontcha know? The feral cats are doing well, with a few heartbreaking exceptions - but not a chupacabra to be seen - very disappointing. All the best in this new gardening season. And can you tell me where all the spring rain went?

Cheers,

Alex

Hello Alex,

Welcome back, my friend. I guess you applied your expertise with zinnia embryos to daylily embryos. You kind of amazed me with how quickly you learned to grow zinnias from embryos, and I can see how that might have been even more of an advantage for daylily seeds.

It has been remarkably rain-free, but we finally got some of that Spring rain today here in this part of Kansas. It interrupted my transplanting some indoor-grown zinnia seedlings into my South Garden. I don't mind a few rain drops on my head, but when the thunder starts to getting closer I usually go inside. I am looking forward to seeing what new variations of zinnias I might see this year. I guess my primary interest is in new flower forms, but I am also interested in better zinnia plants.

Namaste,

ZM

Zenman - lol. I don't know about expertise, but I did mention the process of denuding seeds to expose embryos a couple of times on daylily sites at facebook, and received about zero comment back. I suppose the input coming from a "newbie" like myself was ... what word to use?... presumptuous - that's it. I am definitely a very small fish in a giant ocean of professionals.

Ah well, you're the one who taught me first to do it, and I saw that it was a helpful technique to hasten germination, and in some cases, allow germination when the seed coat was being especially resistant. And I have used it for some daylily seeds, and feel it has helped. Not always, you understand, but enough to make it a viable option in my book.

Glad to hear you are getting some rain. They have been forecasting rain for us, but little has fallen. The various spring-marshy areas that are usually swimming with overflow at this time of year, are almost dry. I am a bit concerned about this presaging a summer drought; but maybe the rains are just delayed. I could certainly handle the rain coming during the heat of summer instead of now. :)

Let me know if you are starting a new thread - I may chime in from time to time. Always enjoy seeing what new things you come up with.

Alex

Hi Alex,

I have started a new thread, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 56

Chime away.

ZenMan