The grocery store I go to only has 6 HC spaces & by noon they are always full anyway. I do get frustrated as I see a lot of HC people park there but let someone run out leaving them sit in an idoling car for 1/2 hour when I could have used that spot.

I only need th HC spot when the weather is bad. Today was hot, 95% humidity & 70 dewpoint. I could barely breath as it as. But I didn't use HC this morning. Parked in a regular spot just 1 extra car away from HC so I made it.

I had one for my husband as he needed help walking but ripped it up after he went in the nursing home. I am so thankful I don't need one !

DH finally agreed to get one after several back surgeries. His mother was crippled with arthritis for most of her adult life. Crippled was the term she preferred so I still honor her with that. ;-) So he took the placard seriously and refused to get one for a long time because others needed it far more than he did. He looks perfectly able bodied but cannot walk far without pain. Once inside, a store a regular grocery cart gives him that little bit of extra support.

I have used his card only once. I had a doctor's appointment at a large medical facility with poor parking and no valet service. I'd had a temporary injury where I could barely walk for a couple of days. I only used it that once to make my appointment unrelated to my injury. I am happy I can walk and I usually choose to park further away just for the exercise.

Don't even get me started on fake service dogs. I do wish businesses would educate themselves on what a true service dog is. Emotional therapy dogs are not service dogs. The only exemptions they are allowed are housing.

I love taking my dog places and we have socialized her early on by taking her into all sorts of environments. But they are businesses which welcome dogs. Pet stores, home improvement stores, hardware stores,appliance stores and many small businesses are often dog friendly. If I am not sure I call ahead.

Pawprint, I hope you would never feel even the slightest twinge of worry as to what someone is thinking of you when you use a spot. I'd say it's pretty obvious to see who's cheating and who isn't (moving slowly.) Do you think you could get a hc plate so you will feel better about it?

Speaking of people prone to seizures, I may have seen the Pearly Gates last year, had the driver been incapacitated a second or two earlier. Pretty scary for me.

Well I haven't gotten the plate because I have personalized plates that I don't want to give up. You can have a personalized plate with HC but the wheelchair symbol takes one space and I'm using all 7 digits now.

Sorry that happened to you. I wouldn't engage with the offending person at all.

A lot of anger out there today. It's almost as if twitter has spilled into our everyday offline lives. :(

Does this help bossyvossy?

____________________

He looks perfectly able bodied but cannot walk far without pain.

____________________

Well stated watchme. It's to shorten the time they're up and around so that they can do more. It's not up to us and decide their level of pain and that is invisible to our eyes.

What I learned when redesigning some parking lots...handicapped parking and "Pink spaces" for mothers are WIDER to accommodate wheelchairs, ramps, buggies, and so on. They may be located in the front, but in generally are not meant in any way to be closer to the door or make the walking distance smaller. It is just easier to make sure there are proper walkways and curb cut outs and distance between cars close to the building first then count out your feet and mark the spaces left over afterwards. In general, there are a set number of spaces (including handicapped) spaces required by law depending on the size, capacity, and purpose of the business.

When we attempted to add some extra front row parking and reserve it for those with placards but not allow the extra space we were told we cannot do it. Handicapped spaces have to be wider and there are other rules for making sure they have unheeded access to the doors (that is where the walkways and curb cut outs come into play).

I think in many people's minds, it is WHEELCHAIR parking. Things have changed so much, as advances are helping people become so much more mobile. And we can't forget, some people are just born to be rude! LOL

Dances.

I prefer the term "cripple" to the politically correct "disabled" but will settle for handicapped. I'm a cripple, I know it and that's the way it is. I'm very fortunate to not be afflicted by the politically correct disorder. People get so worked up over a term. A few letters put together. It's silliness. It's rightly been said, what's in a name?

In Minnesota it's illegal for a person to sit in a car in a handicapped spot. One of my peeves is when someone comes in, drops the person at the door and THEN takes a handicapped parking spot. Or takes the spot and leaves the crippled person in the car. That's selfish and lazy. Go park somewhere else and walk it. I applaud people that drop folks at the door and pick them up there but you don't deserve a reward for doing it. I never expected it in my non-crippled years, nor did I take it. And now I suppose I'm thought to be diagnosing people. Quit getting so hysterical over something simple. People keep covering their eyes to problems. That's one of the big problems we face. People see someone breaking into their neighbors' home and won't call the police because they "don't want to get involved". People see abuse of the system and won't speak of it but they sure complain about their taxes. You're promoting it by condoning it. Of course I'm not suggesting someone who needs it shouldn't get it and I shouldn't have to say it.

And the people who jump out, run in, run around the store, run out and jump in the car and take off... Really, you trying to tell me they have "hidden" handicaps? I have mobility, chronic intense pain and breathing issues, I didn't have a lobotomy! Don't try that one with me.

Here, there's no charge for the hanger permit (aka "cripple card") but there is a charge to get a handicapped plate. Either way you need a doctor to fill out paperwork to get it.

Last I checked, handicapped spots themselves are not required to be wider, however the "vandicapped" (aka van spaces) are naturally going to have to be wider to access wheelchairs or other special needs. From experience I well know that getting a walker between cars is no easier in a standard handispot than a standard parking spot. In fact I'm wondering if some of the spots might not be narrower when they put 2 spots next to each other and a space in between. More total space used but if you park between the lines it's not a lot of room to open the door that's next to the next vehicle.

I am still curious about why people with a seizure disorder get a space as mentioned in one of the posts above. If they have to be stabilized and seizure free for a certain period of time in order to qualify for a driver's license, is the space related to the medication they take, and if that is so do other people who take medication with side effects get to have a space?

I do think that handicaps are not always apparent and I think those in need should get a space, I'm just puzzled about this particular one.

It really has gotten insane. I think part of it is that what people accepted as general aches and pains in the past are now called disabilities. When I was growing up a disabled vet was someone who lost a leg in the war. Plenty of vets with purple hearts would never consider themselves disabled in the past. Today a vet is "disabled" because fireworks make him/her nervous.

My dad drove well into his 80s with painful arthritis in both hips. He wouldn't get a disabled plaque if you paid him to. He figured as long as he could walk it was good enough for him.

We've redefined disability to include most anything and everything. Similar to the medical marijuana fiasco.

http://www.abc10.com/news/local/one-out-of-every-8-california-drivers-now-has-a-disabled-parking-placard/110357389

I think one point to be mindful of is the change in parking lots in many areas in the past few generations. With the advent of malls and large chain grocery stores, parking lots can be huge, and a lack of close in parking can exacerbate pain when walking when distances increase.

For Cynic... Which would you prefer?

I can walk into a store with just my cane if it is no more than about 25 feet to get hold of a shopping cart. In that case, my driver drops me off at the door and then parks in the nearest handicapped spot and comes into the store to help me shop. Coming out of the store, the effort of doing the shopping has used up my energy to the point that I cannot navigate without the aid of the cart and a little help from my driver. Therefore using the cart to get to that nearby handicapped parking spot is a necessity. My driver helps me into the car and then unloads the cart and takes it to the cart corral.

The other option would be for my driver to bring the car up to the door and unload the cart and load me into the car while blocking the entrance to the store. You need to see the whole picture before passing judgement.

'one point to be mindful of is the change in parking lots in many areas in the past few generations. With the advent of malls and large chain grocery stores, parking lots can be huge'

I was thinking the same thing looking at the above link on suspicious city parking - 31 out of 39 handicapped parkers up front. May be because the distance people have to park in the city can be blocks away.

That aside, a lot of lots aren't bad. Many of us would be considered disabled by some of the descriptions given. The majority struggle along without considering themselves any more handicapped than others who have bad backs, knees, poor stamina, without even thinking of applying for special parking privileges. I can think of quite a few people in my life. Do people also watch them struggle to get out of their car and hobble down the lot, wondering why they don't have a handicapped spot? How about all the elderly with their wide assortment of health conditions, along with physical pain and limitations, inability to walk a good distance in the heat and humidity?

I also noticed in the link that the parking meters become free. That could be incentive for a lot of people to want to abuse the system.

I don't consider it any of my business who uses the handicapped spots. I don't pay attention to it although I can't fault people for noticing some of these situations when the privilege appears to be used inappropriately or when someone bounces out of their car and sprints into the store. Noticing, not looking for it for no other reason than to diagnose and pass judgment.

Lucille

I am still curious about why people with a seizure disorder get a space as mentioned in one of the posts above.

******

Comorbidity, sequelae of seizures, related or unrelated impairments and dysfunction, side effects from medication.

Citizens don't walk up to a disabled placard dispenser like it's a Red Box machine. Certain qualified medical professionals must make the request on behalf of their patients, and most do this responsibly, with circumspection, and try to avert abuse. Of course there are malingerers and those who work the system to their advantage, but as with most things, those bad eggs shouldn't ruin it for the people who truly do need this assistance, whether you laymen think you can tell with your untrained eye, or judge their conditions worthy with your lack of education, experience and knowledge of personal rights.

Many of us would be considered disabled by some of the descriptions given.

******

Like we'd all score about the same on the SF-36, Oswestry, Rand-36 or other medical outcome test which looks at overall perception of health and permanent functional disability?

I don't know what your point is but I speak from my own real life experiences. I personally have had periods in my life where I could barely walk or when walking or other activities would exacerbate a condition. I've worked jobs that left me unable to move by the end of the day. When I was in PT the walk was oddly a very long one from the lot to the facility. I was not given handicapped parking (even though I was told to refrain from walking). A friend who is in poor physical condition has difficulty maneuvering, getting in and out their car and simply walking. They continued to work for many years in a job that required physical activity that was very difficult for them. They don't have handicapped parking. Many, many people face aging bodies and both permanent and temporary injuries. There wouldn't be enough spaces close to the door to accommodate everyone. You are comparing and dismissing their own conditions from an even more remote vantage point than those who are actually observing odd things in the parking lot.

Maybe some of you should stop appointing yourselves as sole judge and arbitrators, especially since you object to people having opinions or noting observations from their experiences - or even wondering and asking simple questions politely. You're no better at it. Moreover, it does not help those sectors of the population one bit to have all the angry activists antagonizing people.

"Of course there are malingerers and those who work the system to their advantage, but as with most things, those bad eggs shouldn't ruin it for the people who truly do need this assistance, whether you laymen think you can tell with your untrained eye, or judge their conditions worthy with your lack of education, experience and knowledge of personal rights."

The Kitchen Table is supposed to be a place where all of us can sit down, discuss, and learn. A question related to seizure disorders is a fair question, especially since I have posted several times saying that those who are in need should get spaces.

This kind of reply used to answer a perfectly fair question asked out of curiosity, not political motive, seems hostile and in my opinion does not lead to the kind of question and answer that will encourage learning.

I totally agree, Lucille. And that is precisely why these discussions are not productive but rather are counterproductive, causing hostility between groups of people instead.

You're no better at it. Moreover, it does not help those sectors of the population one bit to antagonize people******

Speaking for myself, I would certainly hope I'm better at it, given that I've spent years researching and developing disability instruments.

If you think you should have, or would qualify for a temporary or permanent disability placard, speak with your doctor. If you don't want to do that, stop bitching about people who do.

This kind of reply used to answer a perfectly fair question asked out of curiosity, not political motive, seems hostile and in my opinion does not lead to the kind of question and answer that will encourage learning.

******

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Lucille, you're being like a dog with a bone regarding persons with seizure disorders and their qualifying for a placard. It might behoove you to recognize that you might just not have the acumen to understand fully why they qualify, and just accept that they do and stop judging them.

You come across as begrudging certain disabled persons their right to a placard.

With that, I'll leave you to your fun here. Complain away.

You have shown by this answer exactly what I was pointing out, that some of the answers here are like 'Hot Topic' answers designed to squash and humiliate people and win at any cost, rather than promote learning and understanding. I asked more than once about the seizure disorder not because I begrudged, by all of my previous answers here on this thread I clearly do not, but because the first time I asked, I did not get an answer that really addressed my question.

"It might behoove you to recognize that you might just not have the acumen to understand fully why they qualify, and just accept that they do and stop judging them."

Translated, this means you don't have an answer or are unable to explain, or that you have dug in your heels to the point where you need to win at any cost, and will simply attack reasonable questions.

The news story shows how the system is broken, at least here in California. Too many abusing the privilege ruin it for those who really need this accommodation. It's easy enough to get angered seeing someone who seems to be using a disability placard they may not need. It happens to me. And sure, some of those may have unseen problems, I have no doubt. But I suspect my eyes tell me a fair story for far too many of the questionable users.

People can feel threatened and stop listening when someone offers an opinion or information that differs from their own understanding. Frequently the next step is to start trading barbs and creating "rules" for why or how something should or shouldn't be said, as a way to change the subject and defend one's own position.

Mimi says she works in the area, so her comments are worth hearing. Remember to "Listen and learn".

Lucille has a good question. W/O getting into specifics, let's say this individual has seizures. In tx, in order to get a DL, you have to provide medical data that it has been under control with meds and no episodes for X amt of time.

Lets say this person passes the DL requirements. How does it automatically justify them needing a handicap sticker? One may say fatigue may trigger an episode and if it does, then seizures are NOT under control which means they wouldn't have qualified for DL.

The handicap sticker is not necessarily for the driver, but often for the passenger. So a blind person can get a handicap sticker, as well as someone with seizures.

I didn't intent on creating a hot topic & I apologize for doing that. HOWEVER, I've enjoyed reading EVERYONES comments because my eyes are more open and I can see the different perspectives & views. Sometimes it's hard for me to see someone else's point of view.

I never studied the in's & outs. My doctor gave me a script, I took it to the DMV. Paid $1.50 and they gave me the thing to hang on my rearview mirror.

I went to the doctor & pharmacy today and did NOT use handicap. They were all full. But it was raining & not hot so I could breath again! The walk was ok.

Well, I'd prefer that the blind person and assistant not be walking too far thru a dangerous parking lot.

Or maybe you can try it with a blindfold and a cane, and see what you think.

"I didn't intent on creating a hot topic " You did not. I was referring to a few of the answers, but I am glad that you started this thread.

ALL of us who do not have a handicap could get one in the blink of an eye, or the onset of a serious illness, as could our loved ones and members of our community.

I think it is important to have a place where we can ask questions to help us understand and to help us get a working knowledge of a subject discussed here.

No one is being forced to use a handicap card and park in handicap spots. The option is there for those who feel it is safest.

Here's my 2 cents on someone parking in handicap & leaving the disabled person in the car while they run inside. I don't mind. If an emergency happened & the disabled person had to exit the car they would hardly make it to the entrance safely.

lgmd_gaz, I'm happy to address your question but it may be fruitless. Every time this topic comes up there's always a couple of people who seem to become overly defensive and it doesn't really make sense to me. Some just cannot accept that someone might have a different opinion on a topic than they have. It's a regular part of life and conversation.

Now, back to your question of what I'd prefer and I'd suggest you too look at the whole picture before YOU pass judment! ;) I thought I made it clear but will be happy to explain it more for you. As I said, drop people off, park in general parking and pick them up. This is what we always did with my wheelchaired friend and we would NEVER think of taking a handicapped spot unless the weather was adverse to him (e.g. raining, extreme cold, extreme heat, etc.) I thought that was pretty clear but apparently I wasn't. Simply put, I don't understand why you don't have the person pick you up AFTER you've done your shopping. Just doesn't make sense to me. If you have to be dropped at the door to go in, presumably when you're at your physical peak, it seems to me you'd be at lesser physical capability after shopping. Someone else is driving you anyway from the way you talk so that doesn't seem to be an issue. Is your driver handicapped and can't walk farther to park the vehicle away? Doesn't sound like it. You state you need help shopping, you need help getting into the store, and it just makes no sense that you don't need help to get back to the car after all the shopping. Your driver could obviously (and as I used to do for people I drove) go get the car and have it to the door by the time you finish at the checkout and get to the door. You don't object to (quote) "blocking the entrance" (in your words) when you go in, presumably at your physical "peak" but it bothers you to be "blocking the entrance", when you're assumably weaker. Just does not compute. I guess I'd LIKE to understand the "whole picture" but the one you paint is very very fuzzy. Please clarify. Feel free to be civil or resort to sarcasm (your choice) and lecture if that pleases you. But I am trying to understand a very confusing situation.

I should also point out that the Minnesota disability permit application has the following specifications (and yes I know that it varies from state to state, and shouldn't even have to state that caveat but...):

The Applicant
- Has a cardiac condition to the extent that the applicant's functional limitations are classified in severity as Class III or
- Class IV according to the standards set by the American Heart Association.
- Uses portable oxygen
- Has an arterial oxygen tension (PAO ) of less than 60 mm/Hg on room air at rest.
- Has lost an arm or leg and does not have or cannot use an artificial limb.
- Is restricted by a respiratory disease to such an extent that the applicant's forced (respiratory) expiratory volume for one second, when measured by spirometry, is less than one liter.

It goes on to ask:
Is the applicant qualified, in all medical respects, to exercise reasonable and ordinary control over a motor vehicle?
- Yes Yes, with adaptive equipment No, please specify:

Other:

Due to disability, uses a wheelchair or cannot walk without the aid of:
- Another Person; A Walker; A Cane; Crutches; Braces; A Prosthetic Device; or other Assistive Device
- Has a disability that would be aggravated by walking 200 feet under normal environmental conditions to an extent that would be life-threatening
This condition is:
- Due to disability cannot walk 200 feet without stopping to rest
- Cannot walk without a significant risk of falling

I don't see where blindness is an accepted qualification in this state.

Due to disability, uses a wheelchair or cannot walk without the aid of:
- Another Person; A Walker; A Cane; ....

Cannot walk without the aid of another person or a cane....

Cynic, I know that any explanation I have will still leave you without a
clear picture of what limitations any disabled person may have. But here are
some expansions on 'my' situation.

First off, being dropped at the door takes only maybe 15 seconds at most
as I can practically fall out of out of the van, and walk with cane to a cart that
is usually within 10 feet.

Secondly, alone I would need a great deal of help to get through the checkout... as
in getting the groceries from the cart to the register conveyor.

Third, and essential, I need that cart to get back to the van in the parking
lot and it can't be very far to it.

If my driver takes the cart to the van to unload into it, that leaves me
waiting somewhere out of the way of other shoppers, but where I can find some
support while waiting and watching for my driver.

So my driver stops in front of the store blocking all ramped access to the
door. He gets out of the van, meets me to walk me to the van and opens my door,
gets a step stool out of the another door, positions it for me and helps me lift
each foot onto the stool, then helps support me while I turn around to sit on
the seat. Driver then helps me lift each leg into the van. After I am in, he
puts the step stool back into the van and gets back into the van and we drive
off. That all takes a whole lot more time than the drop at the door. Meanwhile shoppers leaving the store have to wait, or go down over the curb to get to their cars.

I don't expect you to 'get' all the limitations I have, or those of anyone else. Only the person that has the difficulties fully 'gets it'. Even my husband and daughter sometimes don't realize where I need help....even surprises me sometimes when I can't do something that I thought I should be able to.

To be clear to all who read this, I am very, very fortunate to be able to do what I do at this age when I was told 60 years ago that I would loose the ability to walk within 10 years. And there is no pain associated with my issues unless I injure myself trying to do more than I am able.

None of us really need to explain how & why we use our handicap sticker or plate. As long as we got it with a prescription from doctor and its registered with the DMV and we're the ones using it to help get is where we're going, it's not against the law to park in handicap.

Why should we all feel bad or feel the needs to explain ourself. I started this post because non handicap people dont always see us as handicap and are rudely judging.

But it seems we are all judging and justifying our handicap when we should all be together.

I'm sorry I created this post.

Don't be sorry. Truly. Maybe someone learned something they won't express. Maybe lurkers. Maybe someone will not feel "alone" in this experience.

I feel sorry that there are so many who are able to diagnose you just by looking at you, or worse, over the internet decide how you are using your tag, and feel they are judge/jury, obligated to let you know how much they deem you deserving. But you are right, you don't have justify yourself, you've already done that to a medical provider who saw you in person. They know better than the judge/jury people.

Yes don't be sorry, I've been lurking and I've learned a LOT...I couldn't understand for the longest time why a friend of mine appeared...fine...but had a handicap plate...I've since learned he suffers mental illness, so very sad..but after reading this post I understand so much more than I did before.

Are we allowed to ask why someone with a mental illness needs a handicapped parking space?

I think we should be able to ask any question we want. Asking a question is in no way equivalent to taking a stand for or against anything, it is a request for information. Isn't the Kitchen Table a place to share? How can we truly share if we cannot ask one another for information?

I am glad you started this thread. I think the next time many of us see one of those parking spaces, we may see it with different, more understanding eyes.

Snookums...I don't know why this friend, and really I guess friend is the wrong term, but I don't know why he qualifies f or a sticker with a mental illness. ..this is just what he told me, however I caught this poor guy in so many untruths, maybe he had something else for all I know..heck he could have PTSD or lung cancer even...I just don't know. I was just repeating what he told me..doesn't really even matter to me one way or another why he has a sticker..I just wanted the OP to know I've learned from this post.

One thing to remember, just as we can't diagnose another person's disability, there are still cheats and liars and abusers out there. Let Karma catch them.

These are the requirements to obtain a handicap placard in Ohio. I'm #1 and #3.

Pawprint, please don't feel sorry about starting this post. It has been very informative, and I imagine everyone has learned something from it. I know I have.

I hope whoever it was that asked about blind people having handicap placards notices #7 on the requirements list you posted.

PTSD IS recognized as a mental and an anxiety disorder. It can be, and often is severely debilitating. I would like to very strongly and kindly suggest to the person that made the rather snarky comment about fireworks making vets nervous do a little research and enlighten herself/himself on the subject.

I have a handicap license plate. But there are times when I park in a 'normal' spot because maybe that day I'm not hurting quite so much, the weather is pretty, and a little extra exercise is good for me. It is not so unusual for me to look for a 'normal' spot just a few feet farther away than the handicap spots. On not so good days I am very appreciative of that plate!

And I also want to thank whoever pointed out about the 'van accessible' spots. I have honestly never thought about them being needed for loading/unloading people in wheelchairs. (And I confess I have parked in them, but I surely won't in the future.) Probably because the public transportation vans around here do that in front of the store entrances, they don't park. Nor have I ever seen a spot reserved for pregnant women or people with children, But I think it's a wonderful idea! Our Walmart does have a few spaces reserved for people picking up prescriptions only, limited to 15 minutes. I have seen the line at the prescription pick-up counter long enough that it might be quite a trick to get back to your vehicle in 15 minutes.

Rusty

The New York Times has an article this morning about disability, and I look forward to reading the future, rest of the series.

Becoming Disabled

I know this thread is about parking spaces, but many of the responses here show how people respond to the subject of disability in general, from those who provided information about themselves, to others who championed the idea of accessibility, to (unfortunately) those who slashed others who were curious and asked questions.

I'm interested in the subject, not only because of my own severe hearing loss which affects my life, but because I have children and a grandchild and an interest in people generally, and the increased competition and areas of dwindling resources mean that without understanding and help those with disabilities may continue to face increasing difficulties in their lives.

I find the most difficult part of being disabled is that we're always lumped in with the few who take advantage of the system forcing those of us with disabilities to prove it.

95% of disabilities are not blatantly obvious to the general public, which creates doubt.

I also feel it's embarrassing. When you look at humans 1,000 years ago, the weak didn't survive. Same as in the animal kingdom. Eat or be eaten. Now we have laws & benefits that help & protect us but are judged for using those very same laws & benefits in place to protect & help us.

The article mentions black lives matter & gay pride & be proud of who & what you are. But I still feel a stigma attached to disability. Family & friends don't brag about your disability. Oh, I'm so proud of my son, he had lung cancer!! No, it's nothing to be proud of. (Beating cancer yes), but not in general.

Look at how the Vietnam vets were treated when they returned with PTSD. Not very good.

In my opinion, people look down on others with disabilities & I don't know how we overcome that.

Like this- talking about it, discussing it, examining our own thought processes and knee jerk responses so we can begin to change them. Speaking with patience and compassion and answering questions that seem impertinent so there is no need for defensiveness. Look how many people have already said they are changing because you started this thread! That's how we overcome that and you have already started

Thank you for the kinds words. I appreciate it.

Pawprint...of course you have to prove it..everyone that needs a sticker has to prove they fall into the category of what the gov. Considers disabled. But in the outside world no one needs to prove anything

The NY Times just started a living with disabilities feature. I saw it today, I assume it will be on Sundays,