In my experience canned fermented pickles often loose their crispness. Easy to prevent by using Pickle Crisp. It can be added to any recipe where extra crispness is preferred. I am with you that most recipes for fresh packed pickles have too much vinegar to my taste. I understand that it is done for safety, but I doubt so much vinegar is actually a healthy thing to consume. Like degree of crispness desired, fermented pickle vs. vinegar pickle is just a matter of personal taste. Many prefer fresh pack (vinegar) pickles over fermented. But in no way is the amount of vinegar called for in approved pickle recipes harmful. First because the consumption of vinegar is generally considered beneficial from a medical point of view and second because you don't actually consume that much of it when eating the pickles - not unless you drink the brine in the jar. So there are pros and cons to both methods but it all boils down to personal preference. I looked at the fermented pickles entry, hot water bath at 180-185�F for 30 minutes, and that looks like a great solution, thanks! Low pasteurization doesn't destroy the nutrients, at least not as much as pressure canning would. The link I posted was for the BWB processing time rather than the pasteurization because the pasteurization process has very limited applicability. It can only be used on recipes that call for it in the instructions because it requires a specific pH to insure safety. Thus most recipes approved for pasteurization will include at least some vinegar added. See details linked below. One thing I want to preserve is a couple of really large winter squash. ON p. 159, Ziedrich has a recipe for crisp pickled pumpkin or squash. It has 2 cups of ACV per 3-1/2 lbs. of squash. That seems like it would make the squash sour. I may make 1/2 of the recipe to see how I like it. She doesn't say how long they will be good for, and I need to be able to preserve these for maybe a year, until these squash are available again next fall. Recipe is page 116 in the new edition for those who what to check it out. It is a fresh pack (not fermented) sweet pickle recipe that also includes 1 cup of sugar so no it wouldn't be sour. The recipe calls for BWB processing for 10 mins. Once processed the jars will store indefinitely (like most canned goods) unless opened. Once opened it must be refrigerated. I can think of two options - one is to make her recipe, without the vinegar, and can it. It wouldn't be fermented, so it would need to be pressure cooked, right? Then it wouldn't be a pickle. It would just be canned pumpkin/squash which is a whole other thing and would require pressure canning. See: http://nchfp.uga.edu/how/can_04/pumpkin_winter_squash.html If I understand your questions correctly you are trying to preserve primarily vegetables and do it without a pressure canner, correct? If so then you need to understand that vegetables are low PH and require pressure canning for safe shelf storage. If you don't want to do pressure canning then your only option is to (1) ferment them in lactic acid and then pasteurize them IF the recipe is approved for pasteurization or process them in a BWB OR (2) pickle them in vinegar (acetic acid) and then process them in a BWB. Either way if what you want is shelf storage then they must be processed in a BWB. Don't rule out vinegar preservation without trying it. It is by far the more common way of pickling for most folks and not nearly as strange tasting as you might think because it is often diluted, sweetened and/or flavored with other spices. ACV is much milder and sweeter in flavor than white but either can be used safely as can wine vinegar as long as it is 5% acidity. I hope this helps. If not let us know. Dave Here is a link that might be useful: NCHFP - Pasteurization Guidelines

This is just a little bit of info I found. Being diabetic I really am careful with my food. Elizabeth Andress did not give any information about the refrigerator pickles at the conference. One of the things I wanted to ask was about that subject. LISTERIA What is Listeria monocytogenes? Listeria monocytogenes (Listeria) is a pathogenic (disease-causing) bacterium that is food borne and causes an illness called listeriosis1. It is frequently overlooked as a possible cause of illness due to its unique growth capabilities. First, it is somewhat difficult for laboratories to grow, and when they do so, Listeria can be confused with common harmless contaminants and disregarded. Second, most bacteria grow poorly when temperatures fall below 40°F, while Listeria survives in temperatures from below freezing (20°F) to body temperature and it grows best at 0°F to 50°F,1 including the temperature range that we use for refrigeration. As a result, Listeria may be transmitted in ready-to-eat foods that have been kept properly refrigerated. Its ability to grow in such diverse environments is just one of the many challenges presented by this dangerous bacterium. It is estimated that Listeria causes approximately 1,600 cases of listeriosis annually, resulting in 415 deaths. Where does Listeria monocytogenes come from? There are many opportunities for contamination with Listeria during the process of food production because Listeria monocytogenes is ubiquitous in the environment.1 For example, it can be grown from wild and domestic animals, birds, insects, soil and wastewater, and vegetation. As it is a bacterium found in soil and vegetation, it is easily contracted and transmitted by herd animals. Listeria is found in grazing areas, stale water supplies, and poorly prepared animal feed. It can live in the intestines of humans, animals, and birds for long periods of time without causing infection. The bacterium is often isolated in cattle, sheep, and fowl, and is also found in dairy products, fruits, and vegetables. Here is a link that might be useful: About listeria.

The fermentation is created by the salt and enzymes in the cukes. Its a LACTIC acid type fermentation. The vinegar added will simply slow or stop its natural way or fermenting. Covering the jars with a plastic canning lid helps to reduce any mold on the surface, as well as allow a bit of venting of fermenting gasses. Usually its not really much mold, but a whitish scum. I don't allow that much time at room temps for fermentation. If I wanted a fully fermented cuke, I would only give it about 10 days to two weeks, and then add a bit of vinegar and place in the fridge. The cukes I use are very fresh picklers and are washed off and the ends trimmed off prior to packing into jars. I think the reason I never see mold is because I only allow 2-3 days of partial fermentation and then add the small amount of vinegar and place in the fridge. I also prefer to use a Mrs. Wages dill pickle mix with added fresh dill weed and fresh dill seed heads. The mix contains stuff that prevents mold from forming. I was lucky last year as my cukes matured in time while the dill was just going to seeds. This year with temps below 70 degrees even in all of June and now July, the cukes are still tiny plants and the dill has now started to lose its fern leaves.

I bought white wine vinegar for Emeril's lemon-rosemary pickled green beans, and it turned out not to say the acidity on the bottle. So sad. I used white vinegar and they still taste great. On a related note, you can substitute bottled lemon or lime juice for vinegar; they are more acidic. You cannot safely use vinegar in a recipe that calls for lemon or lime juice. You can swap lemon and lime juice for each other. Always use bottled juice in recipes where it's used for acidity such as pickles and tomatoes. You can use fresh lemon juice in high-acid products such as jam (except figs, which are low-acid and require bottled juice). I know most of us know that already, but I thought it would be useful on this thread if anyone's searching for acidity info later on. Melissa