The Miele professional dishwasher. It is a tank and most cycles are under 30minutes. It needs a 240v outlet and runs about $2500. The regular Miele dishwashers will do the same but the professional is super fast. One of the forum members owns it. Which ever dishwasher you get, take your dishes to the showroom to see how they fit into the dishwasher tines.

Good luck!

homepro01,

I'm definitely not in the market for a $500 dishwasher, but I'm not in the market for a $2,500 one either. I was thinking $1,000-$1,200 ish. That one does indeed look like a tank though. Kind of tempting. You say the regular Miele ones will do the same--how long are their cycles? The website doesn't seem to say.

And what would you say to the horror stories I've been reading by some about their Miele DW?

Sorry, I think your expectations may be unrealistic given the cost of steel and knowledgeable people for customer service plus impact of water/power efficiency requirements on performance.

Stan,

I'm wondering if you read my post correctly. Performance requires more energy usage, which I don't mind. I want as much performance as I can get...though the $2,500 Miele Pro which can get dishes done in 10 minutes is probably overkill for my needs.

I have one of the Miele Pro models in my kitchen. While they are a bit pricey, I feel it was some of the best money I spent during my whole house remodel.

The unit that "homepro01" linked to previously is a retired model. To see what's currently available, go to the Miele USA site and click on "full-size dishwashers." All the professional models begin with a "P" in their model number. There are four models currently available and pricing begins around $2800 and progresses to almost $6000 (a bit steep).

The model I have is PG8080i. It is a semi-integrated unit with a visible control panel. You can add (at extra cost) a stainless door panel or supply your own based on your cabinetry. Mine came with a 240V, four prong power cord, and a braided stainless water hose preinstalled.

The unit can be supplied with cold or hot water (I chose hot). The ProSpeed cycle averages about 19 minutes, Universal (normal) is around 33 minutes, and Pots/Pans between 45-48 min. YMMV.

No pre-rinsing required, just scrape and load. Perfectly clean dishes every time. To put things in perspective, you can run 6 Prospeed cycles in the same amount of time as one normal cycle in a residential machine.

If you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer. Heading to a cookout but will check-in in the AM.

Markb,

Thanks for chiming in. Could not remember your Houzz name.

Swiss Chard,

I have had a regular Miele for over 14years and the newest one is just under a year old. I have never had a problem with them. I scrape but don't rinse or precast my dishes. I dose appropriately. I use a combination of tabs and powder depending on if I am doing a full load or not. I have the water softener tuned appropriately and did not have etching. In my previous home, I had a KA that etched my glasses and deposited a fine grit on the clean dishes. Like all models, Miele has had reports of install issues and DOA units. Once these issues are rectified, owners are quite happy with the unit. On this forum, you will find many happy Miele owners. For some, the prices of the Mieles are a turn off. I currently have the knock2O. It is a great machine. The cycles run from 50mins to 3hours depending on sanitize and intensive selections. If you have a Miele showroom in your area, go check them out

Good luck!

I did read your post correctly. EnergyStar certification is important to most consumers and manufacturers so most dishwashers have it. Some electric and water utilities offer rebates for efficient appliances which consumers like to take advantage of. You might start by looking for appliances that are not EnergyStar certified but I think most of those will be commercial/professional and cost much more than your budget. I do understand your frustration with compromises made in the name of energy/water efficiency. Water efficient toilets cease to be so when you need to flush two or three times to clear the bowl, as another example.

Any of the regular Miele line should do extremely well. Like homepro I have an older Miele. It's 13 going on 14 and has been the best appliance in my kitchen, hands down.

There are terrible stories about every brand. No guarantees. But, with Miele, if anything goes wrong they provide waranty service. Plus, if you really hate the dw they buy it back within a certain time.

Bosch, Asko and Kitchen Aid also have their fans as well as praise and horror stories as well. That's appliances these days.

Good luck with your purchase!

I've had two Mieles. Both were mid-range models. They are wonderful dishwashers. I used the one in California for more than six years daily, sometimes twice a day, when I was in the middle of the busy years with care & feeding of three children. When we left, it was in perfect condition. I've used the one in this house almost seven years, daily in the first few years and every other day now. I scrape but don't rinse. I use the Miele tabs (1/2 tab for regular load, full tab for heavy), rinse aid, and softener. Wonderful, reliable machines.

I just spoke with a very informed Lowe's appliance salesman and he said the machines are built to last 6-8 years these days. He was on his 3rd Kitchen Aid for 18 years of use... Sad commentary on how disposable things are nowadays.

We have the entry level Miele and love it. Yes, the cycles are long (although there is an express cycle- haven't used it much). We scrape, only rinse items with caked on protein like yogurt or cheese. Been very happy with it (just over 3 years daily use). We also use 1/2 Miele tab most days, and a full tab for a heavy load. But wow, that pro model looks cool!!

Do the Miele professional units dry very well and how long does it take? I assume they just do condensation drying.

Julia Tamm, I've been in the appliance repair business for a little over 40 years. The average life of a dishwasher has always been around 8 years. This is nothing new. A 2016 dishwasher is no more disposable than a 1970's dishwasher.

So if your Lowes appliance salesman meant "these days" as in these last 4 decades... he is correct.

However a 2016 dishwasher will use 1/3 the water, 1/4 the electricity, be about 4-5 times quieter, and will get your dishes cleaner than the 1970's dishwasher.

8 years.

My parents had a 1975 KitchenAid for 28 years.
My current unit (a Fisher & Paykel) is soon to be 13 years.
My previous dishwasher, a KitchenAid bought in 1992, is living at my sister's house.

Dadoes - I'm basing the approx. 8 years on 1000's of dishwashers over the last 40 years not individual appliances. This is also supported by Consumer Reports and several other Appliance sites. Most of these sites you will see quote 9 year averages.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2009/03/by-the-numbers-how-long-will-your-appliances-last-it-depends/index.htm

https://www.nachi.org/life-expectancy.htm

http://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/articles/2014/05/05/how-long-should-your-household-purchases-last

Have I seen 25 year old dishwashers still working? Of course, but these are rare. If I'm still in this business 25 years from now will I see a dishwasher that was built this year still running? Probably with the same rarity as today. (God I hope I'm not still doing this in 25 years) Remember that averages are averages... for every dishwasher that I see last 12 years we've seen the same model fail in 6 years.

My mother in law had a working Kitchen Aid dishwasher that they bought in 1974, that was still working in 2008 at the time of her death. Not sure if the new owners of the house kept it or replaced it. Of course, the 1974 models were very basic, only bottom spray, noisy and not energy efficient. But still....over 30 yrs and it still worked.

My neighbor's circa 1985 Whirlpool was replaced in 2003 when the motor seized so that was ~18 years. The replacement is now ~13 years. He's hard on machinery.

Service life of appliances depends on several factors, including whether the consumer opts to repair or replace. People are goofy and often proclaim an appliance as "no good," choosing to spend many hundreds of dollars (or more) to replace the unit for a simple problem. I've seen washers tossed out for a simple $20 motor coupler or $60 pump. Yes, I know service costs are involved when the consumer is unable to DIY but that's still no excuse IMO to toss instead of repair. Appliances can last longer than these proclaimed averages ... people just don't let them.

I read Jakvis' post yesterday about 5 minutes after he posted it and I immediately logged in to reply about how different my experience with dishwashers have been. My parents have been in their house since 1972 and are only on their second dishwasher (the first one lasted 29 years.) The first house I bought was 17 years old and it had the original dishwasher which I replaced after a couple of years and the new one was still going strong after 13 years when I sold the house. I just bought my current home which has its original dishwasher and was built in 1998. I'm dying to get rid of it so I'm sad to say it is still going strong.

Just as I was about to post my comments about how ridiculous an eight year average life was, I decided to Google "average life of dishwashers" and came across the US News link Jakvis posted today. Sure enough it claimed the average life of a dishwasher was nine years. I immediately deleted what I had written. If nine years really is the average life then, of course, there are many that last much longer and, unfortunately, many that must die much sooner. That makes the research you do before buying even more important I would assume. It also means I've been really lucky so far and since I'm about to buy a high end dishwasher ($1,500 - $2,000 range) I had better knock on wood really hard.

People are forgetting about the clogged hoses, pump failures, and rust that came with a 1970s dishwasher including my family's KitchenAid model (when they were part of Hobart not Whirlpool). It was also noisy and never worked well.

The 1975 KA Imperial was installed in my family's 1964 house (our first dishwasher). We moved in 1981, no repairs for the duration, although the racks were developing some rusting. We moved in 1981 ... which that house had the same 1975 model already installed, which also ran with no repairs (other than again some rack rusting) for the duration of 28 years. No clogged hoses ... although pump/motor failure is what dropped it at the end.

The amount of usage also will come into play. I expect that my Mothers D/W that is used 2 - 3 times a week will last longer in years than my dishwasher which is used 9 times a week. (every day and twice a day on the weekends) I do regular maintenance on my D/W with citric acid cleanouts about every 2 months so I do think I might get 10+ years but with the current usage it would not surprise me if I see a failure earlier.

Regarding dishwashers that were made in the 60's, 70's, 80's & 90's. We in service were constantly reminding people to rinse the dishes, set your hot water heater at a minimum of 140F, run your hot water at the sink until you have hot water coming out of the tap, fill all 3 detergent cups, Yes many older d/w's had 3 detergent cups.!(These were the instructions in the user manuals.)

Now we tell people almost the opposite. Water heater should be no more than 120F, with D/W's internal flow through heaters there is no need to run hot water through the tap, scrape but don't rinse your dishes, and only use one tab/pod of detergent...

Personally, I feel that many items are built better today than they were 20-30 years ago and this is coming from a busted knuckle, 40+ year appliance tech.

I never prerinse. Not for the '75 KA Imperial, not now. House I bought in 1991 (built in 1985) had a BOL Frigidaire that apparently had no filtering mechanism. First time I ran a skillet through it and found ground beef particles on everything prompted purchase of the 1992 KA Superba. Maybe that's why our units last for years longer than expected ... proper food soils & grease for then to handle keeps the pump healthy & lubricated.

My KA is going on 16 years. I do notice that it is louder than it used to be but I always run it at night so I don't care.

I've had a typical Miele for a couple of years and am very happy with it. It's very quiet. The regular cycle takes about 2.5 hours, but so what? If I'm in a hurry I use an express cycle that takes about half an hour. Actually, I don't notice any difference in cleanliness of the dishes, but they do need more drying than with a regular cycle. We scrape, not rinse. We have water softness in the mid-range, and I use 1 tablespoon of detergent in the main cup and 1 teaspoon in the small cup, plus rinse aid.

Ditto Filmmoe-- my first Miele followed a KA Superba that died after many yrs. The Miele was installed ( I think somewhat improperly) in the end of 2002. While I loved that machine it did have its little issues. I started out over rinsing and using 1 tablespoon of Cascade. Thanks to this forum I switched to a 1/2 tab of Miele tabs and never looked back.

The pump began to fail and after discussing repair costs in a 13 yr old machine, we decided to replace it.

i did my research and again chose a Miele. ( Futura Dimension) if it's possible, I love it more than its predecessor! It's quiet, has better reviews and a short cycle if I need one.

After doing my research the only other machine that had my attention was a KA that cost $200 more ($1800).

I visited the Miele showroom( not a sales office) played with all of the models and made my choice. Lucky for me Miele had a deal offering an extra years warranty and I bought it on a credit card that doubles the warranty. Do your homework to see if they have any offers out there. Good luck!

Jakvis, you are probably one of those people from Consumer reports spreading misinformation. I don't believe anything you said because it flies in the face of my own experiences and those of my parents and other people we know. I doubt you are a repair person of any kind.

"Personally, I feel that many items are built better today than they were
20-30 years ago and this is coming from a busted knuckle, 40+ year
appliance tech."

Built better today than they were 20-30 years ago? I guess it all depends on how you define "better." If you think that water conservation is "better" than getting the dishes clean, then you would be right. You have different priorities and motivations than I do.

I think what I'm looking for is going to be a commercial model that is also used in residences.

rococogurl,

It is obvious that he is here to try to convince people to purchase cheaper units that will break quickly. If he is in fact a repairman, it makes sense, since these units are the ones that will break the most frequently and provide more business for him.

His statement gives him away: "So if your Lowes appliance salesman meant "these days" as in these last 4 decades... he is correct.

However a 2016 dishwasher will use 1/3 the water, 1/4 the
electricity, be about 4-5 times quieter, and will get your dishes
cleaner than the 1970's dishwasher."

Several posters replied with their very different experiences because they didn't believe him either. I called him out on it because I perceived his posts to be a subtle hijack of the thread to cause me and others to go out and buy cheapo models at Lowes by injecting misinformation, including a link from Consumer Reports--and Consumer Reports is little more than a propaganda site for major brands that are revenue generators for service people. It's a really great gig they have going. A gig that I wanted to avoid contributing to.

What I am looking for now is a commercial dishwasher that is commonly used in residential settings as well, similar to the way Speed Queen (which I am very happy with) is a commercial washer that is commonly used in residential, and therefore avoids either some of or all of the energy star requirements.

I am 85 and I have only had three dishwasher since 1954. The first was a crappy portable Whirlpool. The second was a GE that was still going in the house when I sold it after 35 years, The last is a Maytag that was in my house when I bought it in 2003; still going

Swiss, is correct... obviously I'm a shill for all Major appliance company's.

Antidotal evidence should always take precedence over empirical evidence.

I can only back up what I say by the roughly 75,000 appliances I've worked on since the 1970's. (7 to 10 appliances a day over 40+ years ) and the research anyone can do with a simple Google search. (by the way I provided more than one source to back up my comments which is always done in proper research)

By the way, I've never been in a motorcycle accident and no one that I know has been in a motorcycle accident so therefore by the evidence presented these accidents don't happen...

Swiss, I'll tell you the same thing I tell all my customers. I think you should buy the products you can afford and that suit you best, nothing more and nothing less.

Jakvis, be careful with sarcasm online. Some will not understand it (though I came in to see why you made such an absurd declaration as showed on the preview first line).

You may possibly remember that I'm one who isn't happy with the design of current dishwashers, because they're not well suited to my lifestyle and dishes, and I do miss the ugly old, early-90's Whirlpool that came with the house because it was much better designed for my usage than what was available when I remodelled my kitchen, but I don't doubt the improved quality that you mentioned. Especially when I compare the dishwashers of the past, with all their foibles and repair requirements, my own anecdotal evidence is--not surprisingly--in line with what you've said your professional experience tells you.

I, for one, appreciate all the contributions you've made to this forum.

I've always appreciated jakvis' contributions to this forum. He's very helpful...and also courteous.

I have a 2009 KA KUDS30IVSS. It's not a bad DW but not as good as the Miele or Asko. But at the time Miele's racks just did not hold my usual DW load - the store was taken aback when I showed up with a big cardboard box full of my dishes and pans to check out the various DWs they sold!

But the KA is leagues above the sorry 1989 Kenmore/GE I originally installed. Contrary to most people's experiences on this forum, the darned thing refused to die. Finally I discovered the plastic tub had cracked - but of course it wasn't leaking! - so that was my excuse to replace it.

LOVE the new energy saving features: and even better, the less forceful sprays don't send my dishes rattling against one another. I used to find cracked dishes/glasses occasionally but despite all that water sloshing around, the old Kenmore/GE still couldn't clean well, LOL. The KA does much better -- although I think maybe that lower wash arm seal some folks here reported, may be wearing out on this DW.

Mark B--how well do the pro models dry and how's the noise level? Thanks!

@swiss chard fanatic - I really think you are off base with your accusations against Jackvis. They make no sense. He has been around here a very long time and is a valued member of this forum. You can think and say what you like. But accusing him with nothing to base it on but your interpretation of what he says doesn't redound to your credibility. It makes you sound unreasonable and a little wacky.

Your accusations against Consumer Reports are bizarre. I have been in their offices, had conversations with them about their methodology and have a friend who worked there. Many of us do not agree with their conclusions, what their review and we even have disagreements with their conclusions.

They ignore everything high end because they feel they are testing for the "average working person's budget's"

But they are completely independent and their test results run the show. They regularly send around surveys of experience with various products and aggregate results. I know that because I participate in those. If you don't actually own the product, you aren't allowed to give information about it.

I'd also submit to you that if you want to get real help here then making unfounded accusations isn't the best path. If you don't care then keep it up but you do so at the risk of cutting off useful information.

Roco, I have read CU since it was a spin-off of Consumer Research Institute. My experience differs wildly from yours. Right now if you read their reviews and then read owners reviews in their online site, they are often reversed. People hating their best rated stuff. I prefer to look at owners reviews at Amazon or other online sites. I am a HI Fi buff from days of yesteryear. When they rated amplifiers they put weird things into the ratings so no experienced Hi Fi buff gave any credence to what they rated best. We do look at their data but not their ratings.

Actually, for me, the most interesting thing coming out of this thread is the temperature on your water heater. Different appliances (older versus newer) need different hot water heater temperatures. But it looks like the new upper limit for the hot water heater is 120°. If the new plastic is so vulnerable to higher temperatures, I wonder if it is also vulnerable to different water pressures.

"Mark B--how well do the pro models dry and how's the noise level? Thanks!"

The noise level is commensurate with most high-end machines. I hear no motor noise but can hear whooshing water if I stand in front of the machine. I think it's important to add that PROPER INSTALLATION plays a huge role in noise management.

Drying is relatively the same. For the faster cycles, drying is an option you must choose. I rarely use it. Instead, when the cycle is finished, I pop open the door slightly to allow the dishware to "flash-dry." It takes less than five minutes and everything is completely dry.