Hi Lisa, I, too, live in a volunteer focused community so my kids have grown up volunteering. Our school also has a graduation requirement of 125 volunteer hours and many kids strive for the graduation recognition received upon DOUBLING your contribution.

I cant speak to the 'pay off' in terms of college applications on a personal basis as the oldest is currently a HS junior. Except for occasionally roping them in to help out on my own endeavors I have let my sons take the lead on volunteering in things that interest them. Again our HS curriculum includes exposure to community needs so it is easy for them to be aware.

I don't think I would take on founding a non-profit unless the whole family is gung-ho. I have been involved in a non-profit start up and it was hard. I would encourage the child who is interested to figure out what he can lead/found/create on a small scale, on his own, with some adult guidance. Perhaps he should take a first step by chairing/organizing a drive for something he cares about. This will provide leadership experience; I think the demonstration of leadership and initiative above and beyond volunteering is a plus.

The minimum requirement in our local high school was 100 hours. All of the students did much more. The high school afforded leadership committees for the purpose of padding (although they would not admit this) For example a group that met with the principal to brainstorm issues. My daughter was invited to this one but declined.

Colleges were most impressed with the things that showed a long term commitment. And, in fact, my daughter received a few letter with a hand written note attached mentioning her long standing dedication to music. Both my DD's earned the Girl Scout Gold Award, having been in scouts since first grade. Colleges want to see a well rounded student. Sports, music, a leadership role, a passion for something that shows a long term commitment etc.

Grades of course are very important, but colleges do look at the academic standing of the school. A B is chemistry in a top ranked high school will trump an A in a lesser ranked school. SAT scores are very important.

Starting a non-profit now while your son is already in high school........? To me, this would be a red flag.

Are you looking at the Ivies?

You are now feeling the pressure, as all parents do. It is hard to not get swept up in the fray. I went through it, my friends went through it and I can tell you that all the kids found the place that was right for them. And, all of us asked ourselves, why did we worry so much?

Habitat for Humanity was a favorite volunteer activity for my kids. We have a friend who is an administer there and he encouraged my kids while in middle school. They loved working outside and actually picked up a lot of building skills over the years. Depending on where your student goes to school they might be able to continue while attending college too.

As eld pointed out - long term commitment is a big plus to admission committees.

As an alum, my son is on a local Ivy interview committee. He says they can spot a phony from the application, and the interview usually confirms it. They call them "parental applicants." What they look for IN THE STUDENT is sincerity, committment, spirit, curiosity, ethics. A student who has participated in school activities - band, sports, plays, clubs of any type, or who has been a babysitter or worked part time or pulled garlic mustard from a park, shows them much more of what they're looking for than forced volunteering.

And, believe it or not, they consider "forced volunteering" as a H S requirement nonsense. He himself did no volunteering as a HS student in the eighties, and thinks it is something made-up rather recently by high schools because they think it helps. It didn't originate with the colleges. I realize that was then, times change, etc., but it remains that volunteering is not really what colleges are looking for.

My kids regularly volunteer locally in our community. But I’m seeking more large-scale opportunities for them. Let them be themselves - sincere, capable, well-raised, guided young people who can think for themselves. That is what is important. You've already done a good job.

ETA Lakeaffect posted while I was writing. See what I mean?

I have strong opinions on the value of mandatory volunteerism. A couple of my kids had to do it, one didn't, in a variety of "opportunities" provided by the school and in one case, the kid had to come up with his own project.

The best experience of all was had by our son who helped five elementary school kids with their homework twice a week for two years. We belonged to the local episcopal church in that town (30 families and located in a ghetto). These kids lived in the church neighborhood and were able to walk to the help sessions. It was a close up look at a very different kind of life for our son and was valuable to him personally as well as genuinely helpful to the kids. It wasn't big or splashy or "resume worthy," but worthwhile. He got into a good school despite less than extensive volunteer hours.

I was at a closed college event several years ago where admissions counselors discussed very candidly how kids are ranked for admission. The most interesting takeaway lesson is that schools are not looking for "well rounded" students; they are looking for a well-rounded freshman class. They don't want kids who spread themselves thin in a variety of hobbies, musical instruments, volunteer work and sports. They want a kid with excellent grades and test scores who is very, very good in one key area---sports OR music OR writing OR volunteering OR mountaineering OR beekeeping, etc.. A class full of kids expert in different areas is what nets them a well rounded class. A lot of lip service is given to the well-rounded student. If your kid wants to make volunteering his main "thing" I'd let him do it, with the caveat that even middle schoolers at the more competitive private schools in Atlanta are founding (cough, their parents) non-profits these days. It might be more interesting to college admissions officers for him to try to start an actual business with a social conscience.

kswl just pointed out something that I had entirely forgotten. My youngest graduated college 10 years ago and some concepts have been entirely auto-erased from my brain.

She's right about the importance of the 'well rounded freshman class' to the admissions committee. Granted being a well rounded student isn't going to be held against you but admissions is also looking for that 'hook' concept - something that makes your child stand apart (and perhaps above) all those other super-kids and enriches the incoming class.

We still receive newsletters from all of our colleges and the fall one usually describes the incoming class. We have students from over ......countries ......valedictorians .....Olympic athletes...... award winning musicians.......playwrights.....authors......rodeo champions and on and on.

Without even thinking about college looming in the near future my own 3 happened to stand apart by accident. Our high school is a college feeder so the 3 main areas were well covered: Academics (top grades, SAT scores, AP classes etc) Arts (one was in theater and a Madrigal, one played strings and was in the gifted art program and the third-----well 2 out of 3 isn't bad) and Athletics (all 3 varsity). And that was considered the norm in my town for high achieving students.

Where they stood apart varied - one played lacrosse and ice hockey which weren't offered at our high school so that meant considerable travel and time commitments. One had gold medals from the Penn Relays and tutored other students for 7 years, and one was on crew, worked part time in a restaurant and catering and took a year off before college to work in restaurants because he was considering a career in the culinary field ( which he decided against and is now a happy attorney). Who knew that's where he'd end up?

I am so thankful that I've aged out of college prep. It can be an exhausting race and all too often our kids feel undue pressure to 'get into the right' school. My 3 were very happy with their choices and each chose a different school - one Ivy, one a state university and one a highly ranked liberal arts university. And I honestly believe they would probably have been equally satisfied in just abut any place they picked. But the crucial part is that they took charge with minimal parental interference and chose their own path. I feel very fortunate that it worked out for them.

I don't have high-schoolers until next year. However, I have served as an alumni interviewer (Ivy) and administrate with a number of scholarship committees, so I get to see a wide variety of student transcripts, essays, and recommendations. I have to agree with sheesh that sincerity -- in the writing and actions -- holds much more weight. Students should follow their passion. And kswl2 -- mandatory volunteerism -- its required everywhere now, so it would only be remarkable if a student didn't do any volunteering. Obviously context is important. If a HS student founded a nonprofit, it would be great to see that as an extension of existing interest and experience. If I were to interview the student, I'd be looking for an explanation of why the formation of a non-profit was the best solution to the concern, and the long-term plans for operating and maintaining the non-profit (while attending university full time?) Because of required volunteerism, I see 'resumes' with lists of a variety of volunteer activities. They show completion of the requirement, but it would be stronger if the efforts were focused in an area of interest.

It's been a decade since my kids did college apps and I don't remember any of them listing or talking about their volunteer activities or it even being a question. If they did, it was a minor part of the app. Our county (highly competitive) also had the requirement of so many mandatory volunteer hours, so agree volunteering would not have stood out on an app, unless it was something the kid was extremely dedicated to and had done for awhile. Most kids scrambled to get the hours in wherever they could, so I too question how valuable the exercise is.

The slant back then was more about leadership and dedication.....don't be in 10 clubs but be an officer in one. Show dedication to one or two activities whether it's a sport, music, theater, etc. They also liked to see kids take at least some AP classes.....better B's in AP classes than a 4.0 in regular classes.

We are in a competitive school district where a large percentage of the kids have a long list of activities and achievements to add to their college applications.

My oldest just went through this and what really made a difference for him was getting an SAT/ACT score in the top 1%. Those scores also got him merit scholarships.

Both of my kids, like so many here, had to have so many hours of volunteer work to graduate. It was all silly, make work projects for the parents.

My younger son knew from grade 9 that he wanted to major in Tourism Management specializing in Destination Resort Management. It's a small program and is portfolio-based acceptance with marks, work experience and volunteer work all being factors. Work experience was easy as he is a certified ski instructor and worked at a local 4-season mountain but for volunteer work it had to be relevant to the program and that is what I think is important.

A couple of things he did was to volunteer setting up programs for mountain bike trail maintenance and fundraising for our local search and rescue (who are the backbone of our very active community).

Doing volunteer work just to do it is of course laudable but I don't know how great it looks on a college app. Picking something that is relevant to field of study, that is doable, that can be done WITHOUT parent involvement, those are key.

I'm posting without reading others' responses, intentionally.

I have very mixed feelings about these requirements (and they also apply to elite high school admissions, too, btw). On the one hand, I suppose getting everyone to think of volunteering (for something, sometime) as a natural part of one's life is a very good thing. OTOH, it does smack of punching a ticket and it has also generated a rather unsettling industry of volunteerism, or what one admissions person calls "designer volunteerism". Some of which makes no sense and has little benefit to society.

But I think if volunteering is genuine, it has probably already taken place by HS sua sponte. I also think these reqmt neglect to consider that volunteerism is, arguably, a luxury good for some. It takes time and sometimes resources, and maybe some families don't have that. Maybe the kid needs to spend 100 hours working.

Anyway, I think college admissions people can see through a lot and are pretty jaded by it. I would tell your son to fulfill his requirement doing whatever he wants to do and is interested in. And that includes something that may be pie in the sky, like a start up. There is nothing wrong with trying something and failing, should that occur. And, from an admissions standpoint, that is more interesting anyway. But the real point is, I would let him do whatever he is drawn to. Admissions people can smell authenticity. I would also not choose something that required the entire family's involvement, if you did not otherwise plan to. Part of what admissions people want to see is independence, more so than results.

Lastly, I think the trend has gone overboard and is disingenuous. One headmaster at an elite prep school peppered his entire student address with examples of graduates successful in philanthropy. Only. But who is kidding whom? The vast majority of their grads go onto lucrative careers, if only so they can pay tuition to send their legacies back! I will also note that, like it or not, charities need money first and foremost. And someone needs to earn it.

Agree on having him pick whatever he is drawn to.

I would also like to note that many kids in my college class had NO work experience. Volunteering is a great way to pick up skills/work recommendations that can be useful on a resume later--if you pick the program right.

Another way to volunteer would be to look around and see if there is a (small) need in your community. For example, the computer lab at my college needed clearly written instructions for how to start up their computers and basic instructions for using their programs. Creating an understandable set of instructions would have been a great project for someone who needed community service time. Your son could brainstorm some ideas and pitch a small project (supervised, of course) and put in his volunteer time that way.

Oh I'm so grateful for this feedback. I was headed down a "let's-do-it-because-it-will-look-good-on-your-college-application" path.

I understand the points here about pursuing passions with sincerity, and not just "getting involved" to pad the application. My oldest is very interested in finance, has an investment account, follows business news, etc., and starting a non-profit would be right up his alley. But I agree with the level of commitment and how it will "look" to a college. I'm not sure he's quite ready for the time involved.

Yes, volunteering by high schoolers around here has become so commonplace that it's not special anymore. It gets kids involved in their communities, but I bet if colleges decreased their focus on high school volunteering, my town would probably shut down. (no exaggeration) Area organizations and businesses have come to rely on youth volunteerism.

I'm going to have them choose 1 or 2 areas in which they are interested and/or have talent, and have them research and identify a way to volunteer/be involved on a long-term basis. And see what they come up with on their own. I agree they need to be steering their own ships.

Every parent I know clicks their heels in the air once they're youngest is off to college. Now I know why.

Again, I appreciate everyone's input--I've read it all a few times and your points are all so valuable.

I wanted to add, Lakeaffect, I'm so impressed with your daughter's initiative and experiences. You wrote of her experiences:

it put rural poverty, the effects of poor parenting, meth use and other realities of life front and center for her.

and

googling to learn about anexiety disorders, teaching techniques, talking to teachers in her school, talking to us, etc., then trying those techniques out on the young person she's tutoring (with mixed success, another life lesson). While it's not large scale like your son wants...

Frankly, I can't imagine anything larger in scale than what your daughter did. This warms my heart. Congratulations to her (and to you!). And fingers crossed for the tutoree!

Having read the other posts, I wanted to add a few things.

We have not been thru college admissions but did just go thru high school admissions for elite BS and the drill is almost the same. Essays, interviews, (S)SAT, sports, music, volunteering, visits, recommendations, etc. They tell me we will be old hands when college comes in 4 years.

I will say one thing about the oft-spouted "well rounded class" idiom. Yes, but. What they really mean, if you are talking very competitive schools, is this. You have to be pretty good or at least active in everything ... academics, standardized tests, interviews, extracurriculars and volunteerism, to make the first cut. That is just table stakes. Then, your best chance is if you also have a hook. Something, anything, that they can brag about. The odder the better, if sheer achievement in something is elusive.

So I think for those who are aiming quite high, you can't let any area slip. And yes, you should try to find a passion. I am semi-retired and still don't have one, but they wanted 8th graders to! And may the gods help you if you are an "ORM", such as an Asian girl. You need to be 10x better than all the other Asian girls, since the school cannot be 100% Asian girls.

It is a little off topic so excuse me for this OP, but this video about elite admissions shows how crazy the world is (I think). I can understand not holding back people who have had misfortune and trying to adjust for it, but this seems to celebrate misfortune. You can imagine DH's surprise when I gave him marching orders after this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-OLlJUXwKU

PS Yay, Chispakid!

PS One last thing. Be very careful about saying that a kid appreciates their life more seeing other kids who have less. One, they hear that a lot. Two, IMHO, and I hope no one is offended, but it kind of objectifies the person you are helping. Sometimes it seems as though these schools are saying that poor people exist to teach others a lesson, and/or that they want minorities because the nonminorities learn from them. Everyone seems to exist only in relation to the elite in such discussions.

"The night before her AP chemistry exam, she learned her father had an affair with a 23-year-old prostitute..." How many would like to admit? Admit.

Alcoholic parent... admit.

3 siblings at Harvard... admit.

Poor and underprivileged... admit.

Well my kids will never get into Amherst.

The only component you list above, Mtn, that my kids will not have is music. Sadly, they gave up their instruments a few years ago--it was a battle I grew tired of fighting and became such a source of frustration for them that it wasn't worth it anymore.

They've got sports, clubs and extracurricular interests. Plus they are all conventional learners and do very well on standardized tests. They 're good test-takers and are in (or will be in) AP classes. Older friends tell me they're a shoo-in for their academics but I'm not convinced. Every kid around here is bright. Mine are nothing special in that sense.

I should start drinking, lose my job, and hang out with prostitutes, perhaps.

IKR, Lisa... That's what I told DH. I know how they got to this point, and it was well intentioned, but it's absurd.

Lisa, your kids will be accepted to many colleges and they will have the difficult decision of choosing which one. If they are set on one school, and one school only, that could be a problem.

Tension becomes so high, that some kids will not share what their favorites are in case they don't get in.

Listen to your friends.

Here is something interesting though. My oldest got accepted to a very high ranked school, along with 3 others in her class. The 3 others had higher grade point averages and took more AP classes than my daughter. She said, "I did half the work, and wound up in the same place." Go figure.

Lisa, thank you so much for your kind comments, she is a good kid, but far from perfect, trust me. Her googling of anexiety disorders and how to tutor was done out of sheer frustration, the tutoree's failure to grasp concepts was so supremely upsetting to our daughter that she was getting anexiety over being a tutor. It wasn't brilliance or amazing maturity, it was the old "inspiration is 99% perspiration" thing, she just wanted to make it work. Thanks also for your words about the tutoree, we also hope the classes are passed, we shall soon see.

There are literally a gazillion good schools in the US, so I wouldn't sweat it too much. I've worked at everything from a local community college to an elite private school. A student can have an outstanding experience just about anywhere relatively good, if they make themselves available to the opportunities that institution offers. It's amazing how many students, (smart students) just drift through school otherwise, not finding a passion because they don't try things out. I would look at high school as the PERFECT time to try things out. If your son is interested in finance, then he could work on a grant, or a fundraiser, for an already functioning non-profit. Or organize a project for one. Just about any non-profit probably has a laundry list of things they would like to get accomplished, so no problems on volunteering. Many of them have volunteer program designed specifically for teens. Doesn't his high school have a volunteer coordinator or counselor who advises kids on things to do?

My DS's HS requires a certain amount of volunteer service hours to graduate. My DS now has over 100 hrs of community service work and has met his graduation requirement all right.

Although it's a public HS, it's very upper class which makes it different from the majority of HS in my city. It's also unique in that it has community service as a graduation requirement. Other public HS I know of have no such requirement, but a number of private HS schools require community service for graduation too.

I can see the rationale behind it. The community work requirement brings the students out of their upper-class bubbles and exposes them to things they aren't likely to encounter in their circles.

My DS volunteered for Ronald McDonald House, a farm that runs community vegetable gardens and donates organic produce to food banks for low-income people and an outdoor school, where, as a student leader, he worked with kids from regular and lower income public schools. He learned quite a bit and his experiences made for many dinnertime talks.

Other volunteer work I know other students did was helping at food banks and women/child shelters. A few students went to India to work with a charity there.

However, the charity work was not discussed much at my DS's HS as a mandatory requirement for college admission. The HS has a vigorous after-school college admission coaching program, but they focus mainly on academics, relevant extracurriculars, costs vs value, school selection and differences in admission criteria among different colleges. Their mantra is to be "realistic" about choosing a college. An Ivy League school is great, but you don't really need to kill for it. Also, a highly selective school isn't necessarily a good fit for everyone.

All but 2 students in my DS's class are going to college this Fall. His HS also has a 100% graduation rate, btw.

My oldest is a rising junior, and I'll be honest...this type of discussion until literally just a month ago or so would've made me start to "pit out" and get hives. :) Fortunately, I have several close friends with children a couple of years older than mine and they are wonderful about talking me off the ledge. Our fella is your basic "good" kid. He is bright, and tests well. He is taking all honors and AP...but is not making straight As. Lots of Bs liberally sprinkled throughout. He loves sports, and plays several at school...but we will not be worrying about college sports recruiters hounding us. He has no interest in music, drama, or visual arts. He is involved in student government and other clubs but certainly isn't doing anything visionary as far as extracurriculars. Until recently, all I seemed to do was nag him about doing things that would pad his applications. Dh and I both went to highly selective universities and both of our alma maters seem to have become ridiculously difficult to get accepted in the ensuing 25 years. It was driving me bonkers. We are in an area that is *very* snooty academically. As in, no one cares if you drive a 15 year old Saab (or even better, Prius!) but tongues certainly wag about whose kid got in where and why so and so didn't make the cut.

My friends told me to breathe, and more importantly, let my ds BE himself. Ds would no more do some volunteer work or summer enrichment that he didn't feel passionate about than fly to the moon (I imagine there are probably some kids working on moon flight for THEIR applications, lol!) They said that ds WILL get in a school that is good FOR HIM, and that if he wants to try a stretch school or two...they think his interview will get him noticed in a good way. He is just a curious, interesting, easy to talk to, friendly person.

And that video REALLY makes me glad I am "letting go." For God's sake...sorry my kid hasn't witnessed a drive by in our neighborhood or had to sleep on a thin blanket on a bare floor. Is there anyone actually PAYING for these lovely colleges? In all seriousness, there seems to be a definite bias in favor of applicants in dire financial situations. Do the admissions folk ever, behind closed doors, under threat of death, say, "hmmm, what say we actually pick a few kids whose parents have been saving & investing for the past 18 years to actually PAY our salaries?!" The whole process has frankly become a load of BS and I cannot wait to have it behind me.

LakeEffect, your DD's efforts DO show maturity and ingenuity and dedication. Responding to frustration by dealing with it? Priceless. We don't always like our resoonsibilities, but choosing to deal with them makes the difference. As a parent to a HS student with anxiety, I find your daughter's efforts encouraging, and I wish my child's teachers would do the same. We are fortunate that he does like to go to school.

Because of his anxiety, btw, he finds it very hard to volunteer. He knows it's important for applications, just can't work past it. As we embark on college application season, we are thinking about how to address that.

Our older son didn't volunteer overly much, and got into a fine program for his major.

Bpath, I have an idea that maybe you can consider. Guiding Eyes for the Blind needs volunteers to help socialize the puppies. After a screening and paper work, you are approved to bring two puppies (always two) home for the weekend. There are guidelines of what to do and also what not to do. It was exhausting, but worthwhile.

You can do this experience once or as many times as you like. My elderly dog was stressed so we only did it twice.

Side story: Word spread in my neighborhood and three families went on the list to adopt ones that don't qualify to train. All three families got dogs!

Thanks, Bpathome, and I agree. Lakeaffect's daughter's response to the situation is the learning moment. I appreciated reading the account of it.

Two of my kids are "Ivy League material," and if they were to aspire to that, we'd support them. But we are in the Midwest and entrenched in the Big Ten because my kids are obsessed with college sports and ESPN (they are not, though, college athlete material). So they'd be more interested in state schools or our regional top schools like Washington University, Univ. of Chicago, Notre Dame (OK, maybe not Notre Dame because of a sports rivalry thing).

But even then... Nini804, I know what you mean--even our Big Ten state schools have become ultra selective. I'm rather proud of that, though, because in theory, the Big Ten is historically focused on academic achievement.

Your point about letting your child be himself seems to be spot on. I think the fact that he's curious and interesting to talk to will get him farther in life than from where his degree is earned. As an adult, the people around me who are appealing and successful and HAPPY in their careers are that way because of their character and work ethic. I generally don't pay attention to where they attended college, except for our doctors. And our accountant. (wink)

Eld6161 wrote: My oldest got accepted to a very high ranked school, along with 3 others in her class. The 3 others had higher grade point averages and took more AP classes than my daughter. She said, "I did half the work, and wound up in the same place." Go figure.

This will be one of my kids. He's exceptionally bright but knows where to put his effort so that it matters. He's got life figured out already.

"In all seriousness, there seems to be a definite bias in favor of applicants in dire financial situations. Do the admissions folk ever, behind closed doors, under threat of death, say, "hmmm, what say we actually pick a few kids whose parents have been saving & investing for the past 18 years to actually PAY our salaries?!" The whole process has frankly become a load of BS and I cannot wait to have it behind me."

No, there isn't a definite bias etc. Don't judge college admissions to elite universities by that 2-minute video clip! In reality as with much of life, college admission is also skewing toward admitting far more affluent students whose parents have invested much human and financial capital, and far fewer of those coming from backgrounds without the intense preparation (academic, volunteer, and experiential).

Also not to offend anyone but please, please, please forget about what you, your friend, offspring or XYZ experienced 20 or more years ago WRT college admissions. It was a completely different world and those days are gone. There simply is no equivalent any more for those decades ago tales of 'so I was a pretty good student and applied a few places and, yowza, Harvard accepted me' and 'my parents didn't even know I applied to Stanford and MIT so imagine their surprise when I got into both of them' and 'well, I didn't have perfect SAT scores but Yale didn't mind' and so on and so forth.

And last but not least, the entire bumper sticker college search process (ie, parents desperate to put that HYP/name school on the back of the family Volvo :) has led to the reality that even 'Ivy League level' kids are probably not going to get in to those schools anymore. If your kid is starting the process, parents please notch down those expectations. Schools that in your day were safety places are now competitive at a level you never would have believed possible...don't get too caught up in the mania because it will break your heart and stress your child for no good reason whatsoever. Search for schools that will help your student grown and develop his/her talents and forget about name brand recognition.

I so agree with Running. Our state u was ho hum and anyone could get in until about 18 years ago. When my son applied in 2002 it had already become quite competitive and we live in a highly competitive school district with several magnet high schools. Many wealthy parents, whose kids were top students in magnet programs, were very upset when their kids didn't get in. What they failed to realize is that state u's can't just accept the top 10% from the top school districts and top high schools.

Another thing......my son applied to colleges as a computer science major and got into a top program. Senior year he took AP Environmental Science and loved it and realized he didn't want to sit at a computer all day. He went to the same university and switched his major to ES at orientation. This u is not known for its ES program but he graduated, got a job in his field and is content.

Other son went to a second/third tier college in another state but they were number one in his major which was not run of the mill. Half way through he decided it was not for him but stuck it out because most of the classes would not have transferred to another major which meant another year of college at least. Today he is a tireless advocate at a large nonprofit....he became impassioned with his cause in college.

So don't sweat the whole college thing. Things change, kids change. And now it's almost what a high school degree meant 50 years ago. Where you go to grad school is probably more significant. Bright and dedicated kids will rise and excel no matter where they go. An Ivy League degree doesn't necessarily translate to a top job and big bucks. Likewise, going to a non-competitive school doesn't mean a lifetime of mediocre jobs with average pay.

What Running and Joanie said!

Take a look at the return on investment of each school. My DD applied to 22 schools (on her own, obviously!) and selected the one she believed would have the best ROI based on her own instincts, information from placement offices and anecdotal information, passing on some top tier schools in favor of her choice. It's now one of the top three schools for return on investment and graduates' income after five and ten years according to the department of education surveys online. She was interested in the education but not simply as an end in itself. We paid very little for her education (merit scholarships) and she is back in school now and paying for it herself. When she was in boarding school mapping out this strategy we agonized over her college choice----needlessly, as it turned out!

Another observation from just having gone through this process. Schools now place tons of kids on the waiting lists ... the new way of rejecting them without actually having to say the words. It sounds much better to say XYZ wait listed me, instead of declined me! The "wait listed" kids don't feel so bitter towards the school, even when they don't get an offer later on, which is a brilliant marketing and public relations strategy.

When going through the data make sure to look at how many kids were placed on the waiting list and how few actually got offered a spot.

Chispa, this goes along with the every kid gets a trophy mentality!

One more option that many don't think about is the transfer or drop out rate of first semester students. If you don't get accepted at first, chances are there just might be a spot for you in the spring session.

bpahome, thank you so much for your kind words about our daughter. Being her mother, and seeing her in all her day to day teenaged glory, combined with her senioritis (to the max) has perhaps blinded me a little to how she approached the tutoring challenges, so thank you and lisad so much for helping me to better appreciate her actions.

I work in a private research university (not an Ivy) and I agree 100% with runninginplace on every point she makes, that video is quite a distortion of the process and our admissions folks can also spot a phone or a parent coached kid, so let your kids be themselves, and have a few options, don't let your kid think they are unworthy if they don't get into a level of school you got into, we see that and it is heartbreaking. My kid applied to and was accepted to early decision, so if your kid is set on the school and program (mine was), that is an option, and if they do get in early decision, great, if not, they can defer to regular decision.

Bottom line, don't let the process overwhelm you or your kid, there are many college and programs and a "good fit" is better than a "good school" every day of the week.