Moved info. I wrote in Khalid's thread on different types of rootstocks, and what type of potassium is best:

Carol: I'm glad that the info. I wrote is useful .. what type of rootstock are most of your roses grafted on? Multiflora rootstock doesn't secret as much acid as Dr. Huey or Centifolia (Khalid's roses). In South Africa, Jess' roses are grafted on multiflora (less acid secreted). Own-root roses vary, but most of them secret less acid, and less aggressive than Dr. Huey.

Aztcqn: You are in California ... most roses are grafted on Dr. Huey to secret acid to go through the heavy alkaline CA clay, plus alkaline tap water. Meiland roses (from France) like Climbing Eden, Liv Tyler, Bolero, Frederic Mistral prefer alkalinity ... they are bred in Southern France, with a vast region of alkaline clay & warm climate.

Years ago I induced rust accidentally by dumping too much gypsum (calcium sulfate) on Liv Tyler and Evelyn. Both prefer alkaline, and gypsum is slightly acidic at pH 6.8. Then we got tons of rain at pH 5.6 and it was a rust-fest.

When I researched on rust, one University Extension found that low-potassium result in higher rust, and the best pH for rust is around rain-water, slightly acidic.

Calcium is a positive charged ions, it competes with other ions such as phosphorus, potassium, and magnesium. Too much calcium drives down potassium, resulting in rust if the pH is slightly acidic. Too much calcium drive down phosphorus, resulting in less scent .. phosphorus is a fragrance-booster in ATP transfer for genetic DNA.

When it rains, there's less fragrance in pots, because rain-water releases calcium, but leaches out mostly nitrogen, potassium, plus a bit of phosphorus. When I visited Chicago Botanical after spring's heavy rains, blooms are faded in color, smaller in size (leaching of potassium), plus zero scent in Gertrude Jekyll, Eglantyne, and many Austin roses.

Two choices of potassium: acidic sulfate of potash at NPK 0-0-50, salt index of 43, with 21% sulfur, or potassium phosphate, as in Monopotassium Phosphate Fertilizer with NPK 0-52-34, salt index of 8.4, zero sulfur. I tested both, and for my heavy alkaline clay, sulfate of potash dissolved easily in alkaline tap water & went through my heavy clay easily with its acidity.

Monopotassium phosphate (lower salt) is better for loamy potting soil like Khalid's river soil, and best for roses in pots, since pots retain salt through time. I had a hard time dissolving that potassium phosphate in my tap water at pH near 9 .. had to put a bit of vinegar. Then it crystallined my heavy clay, making it more compact. I get more blooms & healthier leaves with sulfate of potash, but better fragrance with potassium phosphate.

Whatever you do, DON'T BUY potassium chloride (muriate of potash) sold as Espoma Potash with salt index of 112.6.

Potassium phosphate is sold on Amazon at $20 for 5 lb., free shipping, see link below. NPK is high at 0-52-34, recommended use is 1 teaspoon per gallon of 3.8 liter of water. Salt idex is 8.4, compared to gypsum salt-index of 8, and sulfate of potash salt-idex of 43.

http://www.amazon.com/Monopotassium-Greenway-Biotech-Inc-Hydroponics/dp/B00HCS99YG

The below site has excellent info. on potassium:

http://www.potash.mobi/

" Typically, a base grow nutrient has one-and-a-half times more potassium than nitrogen, and a bloom formula has at least twice as much potassium as nitrogen.

Potassium is the health element. During heavy fruiting and flowering, large amounts of potassium can be removed from the nutrient solution in just a matter of days. In tomatoes, for example, a potassium deficiency results in watery fruit with low sugar content and poor shelf life. But if the potassium levels are kept high, fruit quality improves. So many growers use a “boost” formula during the fruiting and flowering stage. By adding a little potassium phosphate or potassium sulfate to the top-off water between reservoir changes, the grower puts back in.

A potassium deficiency appears as a “firing” or browning of the leaf margins, often accompanied by brown spots on the leaf. So when in doubt, flush the growing medium first .. if the problem was caused by toxic levels of salts, flushing is always a good first aid.

Potassium is very important for carbohydrate metabolism, increasing the sugar content in the sap. Sugar content is measured with a brix refractometer. The higher the brix, the higher the sugar contents in the sap and the healthier the plant ... Higher brix not only produces better quality fruit, it actually helps improve the plant’s natural resistance to pests and disease. In fact, some growers claim that if brix levels exceed 12%, sucking insects won’t even recognize the plant as food!

http://www.potash.mobi/

When to use high potassium vs. high phosphorus, see below info.

" Generally speaking, phosphorus and potassium are both important during the fruiting and flowering stage, but increased phosphorus is particularly beneficial during the early generative stage, while increased potassium is particularly beneficial during the final stages of fruit and flower production."

http://phosphorus.mobi/

Moved info. I wrote on potassium and silicon for mildew prevention into here:

Khalid: In my search for the solution to mildew I came across the need for silicon. Plants in soil lacking in silicon and potassium are prone to mildew. From Wikipedia: "Examples of silicate minerals in the crust include those in the pyroxene, amphibole, mica, and feldspar groups. These minerals occur in clay and various types of rock such as granite and sandstone. "

True, mildew is rare in my alkaline clay (has silicon & potassium) unless I use excess sulfur (lower pH), and salt in chemical fertilizer. But mildew occur more in bagged potting soil (zero-nutrients peat-moss & wood-chips & lime).

According to Wikipedia, Granite dust is composed of 72% silicon, 14% aluminum, and 4% potassium ... see discussion in below "Organic Gardening" forum on how granite dust shot up phosphorus and zinc content in soil. Zinc is the strongest anti-fungal agent, after that is copper and calcium. Granite dust is found in sand-like particles, granite-counter's shavings, and the largest producer of silicon is China.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1522834/granite-dust

See excerpt from below link on how silicon & potassium help with mildew:

"Silicon also becomes embedded in leaf cells, adding a physical barrier against pests and disease. For example, it is a common practice for commercial cucumber growers to pre-treat their water with silicon to help improve the crop’s resistance to powdery mildew.

In most hydroponics applications, silicon is added to the nutrient solution as potassium silicate. Potassium silicate is water soluble, but it reacts strongly with concentrated nutrient solutions, forming an insoluble, glue-like substance. So when using silicon additives, make sure that they are added in dilute form.

Potassium silicate is also very alkaline in nature, raising the pH of the nutrient solution. Raising the pH can be beneficial if the pH is below 5.5, but most water used for irrigation is already too high for optimum plant growth."

http://www.silica.mobi/

*** From Straw: What I like about granite dust, sand, or grit is that it does not affect pH level. Plus cheap on Amazon $10 for 5 lbs. as granite poultry grit. Useful to make soil fluffy & increase phosphorus.

http://www.amazon.com/Manna-Pro-Insoluble-Crushed-Granite/dp/B000QFSAJW/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

Move info. about raising the pH and mildew into here:

Khalid: red-lava-rock and pea-gravel both are alkaline and will raise the pH. Any minerals in a solid form will raise pH, but red-lava is higher in potassium, and pea-gravel (with a variety of colors) is best to enhance the fragrance. Agree with STOPPING all salty and acidic fertilizer, so mildew doesn't get worse.

Beans like black-eyed-peas, chick-peas, and mung-bean are high in potassium, that will de-salt the accumulated salt in pots. Potato is high in potassium and folks use potato chunks to soak up salt, if they make a mistake of putting too much salt in a soup. Beans like black-eyed-peas is known to lower blood-pressure in human. The osmotic pressure is what helps plants to retain moisture, but when there's too much salt in the soil, plants will be dried-out, thus more prone to mildew.

Salty-soil will also contribute to mildew. We had a drought in 2004 which resulted in mildew on my perennials. I saw mildew breaking out on roses which I gave a second dose of salty-fertilizer, but zero mildew on roses which didn't get the 2nd dose. Salt is another factor with mildew

Moved info. on how to test water pH to see how alkaline it is:

Hi Carol: I always mix 1 cup of gypsum thoroughly with 2 gallons of potting soil (or a medium pot), before planting a new rose.

Mg stand for magnesium, and CaCO3 stand for calcium carbonate. The numbers for Mg don't normally exceed double digit, I can see a value of 17.3 for magnesium in April, but not 173.

Your calcium level of 12.1 is normal, compared to my Chicago of 10.6 for magnesium and 32.6 for calcium. My tap water has 3 times more calcium than yours, so my tap would be MUCH MORE ALKALINE than yours.

http://www.mgwater.com/mgrank.shtml

The best way is to buy $1 worth of distilled water (pH 6.8), boil 1 leaf of red cabbage in 1/2 cup of distilled water. Then in a separate pot, boil 1 leaf of red cabbage in 1/2 cup of your tap water and compare the color. Easier to nuke the waters in the microwave, in separate cups to compare. If your tap water is bluish, then it's VERY ALKALINE (pH near 9). If you tap water is just a bit more purple than distilled water (violet color) .. then your tap is slightly alkaline & don't need gypsum for roses to bloom.

I tested BOTTLED mineral water with fish-tank litmus paper, and it has pH 7.5. My tap water is near pH 9. The town next to me reported on their website of pH 8.9 to 9.2 for their tap water.

Move info. on different types of phosphorus to use into here:

Aztcqn: The hydroponics site is right about phosphorus for developmental stages. Phosphorus enables more blooms through branching. Plants that lack phosphorus don't branch out as much, plus blooms more faded. Phosphorus shift the color to the red zone. I don't think Khalid's roses are short of phosphorus, since his red/pink is really deep, and his plants are bushy (lots of branching).

My Evelyn rose had thick stems when I used lots of alfalfa meal at NPK 2-1-2, but when I put gypsum (calcium sulfate) around it, the stems became slender, and blooms balled. Calcium binds up with both potassium and phosphorus, making both unavailable.

Forget to mention that tap-water has plenty of calcium, my tap water has 3 times more calcium than Carol in her Canada. Municipals use calcium hydroxide (hydrated quick lime) to treat water. That calcium is used to deodorize tap water. Local horse stable uses quick lime to deodorize their stalls .. so when I watered roses with tap-water, that took away their scents.

Someone with soil high in calcium & very low in potassium & low in magnesium reported that her stems are thin, and blooms balled-up. The problem is tap water with unstable-calcium which binds up with potassium, making it unavailable, resulting in thin stems.

The answer to aztcqn question is monopotassium phosphate with NPK 0-52-34, high in both potassium and phosphorus, zero sulfur. It's low-salt-index of 8.4, $19 per 5 lbs. on Amazon, use one teaspoon per gallon. That's only if you have loamy & loose soil, since that fertilzer glued up with my clay if used in excess.

Potassium phosphate is also in MG_soluble rose food, except that has chemical nitrogen added, which attracts pests. I'm pretty sure the chemical nitrogen in Miracle-soluble-food was what attracted thrips when I used it for pots. Plus chemical nitrogen has very high salt index over 80, which result in salt-build-up in pots.

I tested monopotassium phosphate NPK 0-52-34 and I didn't have any pests problems, since it's a diluted soluble to be watered into the root at 1 teaspoon per gallon. Yes, Sonia Rykiel had more branching (one bloom per stem), deep color & great scent, thick-stem when I tested that NPK 0-52-34.

For slow-release phosphorus, there's bone-meal (has calcium), and rock phosphate .. but both need acid to dissolve, and CANNOT be use at pH above 7. For organic source of phosphorus & potassium, there's molasses with iron & trace elements, equal calcium to potassium & a bit of phosphorus. But I got really bad rose-slugs with molasses.

Fish meal at NPK 10-6-2 is a good source of nitrogen and phosphorus .. but dried fish meal is cooked, and it loses enzymes & vitamins. Fish emulsion (fresh) is best with NPK 5-1-1 .. Seaweed (username) uses fish emulsion and achieved vibrant colors for her roses. Both are stinky but worth the deep colors & more branching & more blooms. I had just realized that Khalid's deep & vibrant colors come from the decayed matter in the river soil he got, there's composted fish & plants & microbes in there.

Moved info. from Khalid's thread into here:

Khalid: Since my tap water pH is near the pH of baking soda, I didn't even bother with baking soda for mildew, I dusted the leaves with corn-meal, and that took care for mildew. Whole-grain cornmeal has the fat, so that stuck to the leaves well and stopped mildew, despite wet & shady location.

Since wood ash has decent selenium, I checked on U. of Maryland website and high-selenium as in brewer's yeast " When researchers examined whether selenium had any effect on skin cancer, they found that people who took as little as 200 mcg of selenium per day for more than 7 years had a significantly higher risk of developing type 2 diabetes."

http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/selenium

Acid is great to induce mildew and blackspots. I tested brewer's yeast (acidic at pH 4) by diluting in rain-water (pH 5.6) and gave a few roses in late fall. 2 out of 4 broke out in blackspots, and the remaining 2 broke out in mildew.

Brewer's yeast worked great when I used to lower my high pH water near 9, but was a disaster with rain water at pH 5.6. Spent time to read about chemical properties of selenium and Wikipedia stated that its effect is similar to sulfur. Thus selenium is what gave Brewer's yeast a sour taste.

Sugar is used by Rhode Island Rose Society to enhance the bloom's color in the vase, making blooms having a deeper pink. A nursery advised folks to lower soil pH by dumping sugarly coke (cola drink) into the soil. I deepened Sonia Rykiel's bloom with molasses/vinegar, but I stopped that when it broke out blackspots with acidic rain, plus more rose slugs.

Khalid: I notice the deep & vibrant colors in your roses with wood-ash, most likely from the trace elements. Brewer's yeast is highest in selenium, and wood-ash has decent selenium ... there might be a connection between high-selenium and sugar-retention .. yeast/fungus growth shot up when we added sugar in college microbiology lab.

The high pH of wood-ash has a useful purpose: to suppress fungal growth. Acidic rain water is enough to neutralize wood-ash, and roots like Dr. Huey or Centifolia both secret plenty of acid to neutralize the alkalinity of wood-ash. Own-root roses are less aggressive & secret less acid. Multiflora-rootstock like what Jess has also produce less acid, so gypsum & suflate of potash worked well for her clay.

As to solving mildew problem at the root-level? There are 3 choices to UP the pH: Lime at pH 9 didn't work. Pea-gravel at pH 9 with a variety of minerals ... I tested that, zero mildew in pots. Red-lava rock at pH above 8, high potassium & high iron ... leaves are pale, but healthy with zero blackspots nor mildew. I put red-lava-rock INSIDE the planting hole of a Centifolia rose (Le Nia Rias) and it's clean for the past 3 years, no mildew nor blackspots .. while the 2 peonies next to it are white with mildew in late fall, where they are all next to a rainspout, wet & shady location.

Red-lava rock works best in the planting hole, it has to be soaking wet to release nutrients. When on top, it gets heated by the sun and gets too hot, doesn't break down unless it's constant rain.

Moved info. from Khalid's thread on baking soda-recipe for mildew:

Khalid: Roots secret acid to obtain phosphorus from soil for blooming, in a process called Acid-phosphatase by Wikipedia. Cluster root like Centifolia secrets acid well to break through my rock-hard-clay, to provide 2 sucker-plants of Le Nia Rias (Centifolia Old Garden Rose in my garden).

Since your roots are in confined pots .. there is an accumulation of acid AFTER heavy blooming, that need to be neutralized by alkaline minerals. Mildew fungus thrive best at pH neutral to slightly acidic.

Last year we had tons of acidic rain, I put pea-gravel on top of my 3 pots .. zero mildew, compared to previous year of mildew with more acid and salt in pots.

I would cut out ALL fertilizer with acid or sulfur: gypsum has 8% salt and 17% sulfur. Sulfate of potash has 43% salt and 21% sulfur. Wood-ash is alkaline with pH over 12, but high in salt & dangerous if gets into eyes. Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) is alkaline & EFFECTIVE for mildew if sprayed on the leaves, with an oil to help adhesion to the surface.

" To make a spray that sticks to your plants and kills powdery mildew, mix 1 tablespoon each of baking soda, ultra-fine horticultural oil and chemical-free, non-detergent dishwashing liquid per 1 gallon of water. The soap helps the solution stick to the leaves. Ultra-fine horticultural oil has fungicidal properties and remains suspended in the solution during spraying."

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/use-baking-soda-treatment-powdery-mildew-lemon-trees-100487.html

Moved info. from Khalid's thread on NPK of compost:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/3528532/npk-and-ph-of-organic-matters?n=114

Hi Sam: The link "composting in 18 days" stated the below: "Aim to use 1/3 Manure and 2/3 dry carbon materials. It will work. Just pile alternating thin layers of greens and browns until you end up with a compost heap that is 1 meter square and a bit taller than that."

My translation: use 1/3 green, or high-nitrogen and high protein stuff (fish, manure, greens, alfalfa hay) and 2/3 carbon, or brown matter such as wood chips and leaves. The high-nitrogen & protein stuff is stinky, but the brown or carbon stuff will absorb the odor. The green or high-nitrogen speeds up the decomposition: both fish and manure decay fast, versus slow-decayed wood-chips.

On magnesium: it should be supplied together with potassium, as 1/10 of potassium in rose-tissue-analysis. Without magnesium, potassium is leached out easily with rain water. That ratio is found in beans. Beans is known to be high in potassium and magnesium ... when I cook beans, I have to salt it, otherwise it doesn't taste good. Foods high in magnesium: spinach greens, coffee, and beans. Also chocolate, I tested cocoa-shell mulch .. that retained water well & produced ruffled petals, but it glues up with my clay, so I don't mix with clay, I use it as mulch on top.

The winner? Crushed black-eyed pea .. it was slightly alkaline at first (bluish purple). Upon soaking for 1 hour, it's still more blue, or more alkaline than red-cabbage in rain-water. The amount of potassium WAS NOT LISTED on lentil bag, so it's not impressive. But the amount of potassium was listed on black-eyed pea bag as 390, on black-bean bag as 520, and on red-bean bag as 500.

Organic sources is always better than Epsom salt. Epsom salt is magnesium sulfate, it crystallize upon exposure to air, best used to kill pests' larvae on the surface of soil. Epsom salt isn't good at root level, since it hardens soil, plus it has salt. The best type of magnesium is SLOW-RELEASED, as in decaying beans, cocoa mulch, or greens. Minerals like Dolomitic has both magnesium and calcium, and is released when rain-water hits it." Straw.

Khalid wrote the below in his thread NPK of organic matter, which I re-post here. See below link for pics. ... citrus peels are high in potassium:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/3528532/npk-and-ph-of-organic-matters?n=114

http://www.lundproduce.com/N-P-K-Value-of-Everything.html

Khalid wrote: "From the above link I found out few useful organic stuff that we waste if not everyday than every week in plenty. It includes NPK of Orange Skins: 0/3.0/27.0

- Potatoe skin (ash), 0/5.18/27.5

- Cucumber skin (ash), 0/11.28/27.2

- Orange Skin (ash), 0/3.0/27.0

- Coffee Groud, 2.0/0.36/0.67

- Tea Ground, 4.15/0.62/0.4

- Lemon skin, 06.33/1.0

- Lemon culls, 0.15/0.06/0.26

- Egg Shells, 1.19/0.38/0.14

Here are my suggestion for you.... (keeping in mind your convenience and weather, ie, winters).

1. Buy five to six 18 inch clay pots. If you already have them than it's great. Even smaller pots would do. This is the only investment that you need here. Put them in a place which is warm and it's convenient for you to drop the waste there (perhaps garage or some other secluded but closeby place).
2. Fill two bags with garden soil (around 20 kg each, has to be natural soil from the garden, not an artificial potting mix) and keep them at the same place wherever you keep the pots. Keep a hand shovel with it for putting soil in the pots when needed.
3. Cover the drainage hole of the pot with a broken clay pot piece or something else and put 2 inch soil at the base.
4. Ingredients that you need.....used black tea leaves and coffee ground. Egg shells of used eggs (crushed, one per day is enough), peels of most of the vegetables and fruits that you eat (banana, oragne, lemon, grape fruit, apple, potato, cucumber, all are good and have high potassium and trace elements). Any other peels would also do. Vegetable waste after cutting the veges.... all.
5. Put the garbage (point 4) in the pot and sprinkle some soil over it, just covering the garbage. The peels should be cut in smaller pieces to accelerate decomposition.
6. Put next days garbage over the thin layer of soil and cover it again. Sprinkle some water over it, just enough to keep the things moist but shouldn't drain out of the pot. Keep making these layers of garbage and soil till the time pot is filled. The upper two inch layer should be garden soil. Mark the date on the pot. Sprinkle some water on the pot every now and than to keep the compost moist. Adding some vinegar to the water will speed up decomposition.
7. Start the next pot and when that is filled, next pot. It takes me 15-20 days to fill a pot. Depending upon the quantity of garbage available every day, it could be earlier or later. By the time 6th pot is filled, you first pot should be either ready or at least 70% done. In Islamabad it takes roughly three months and the pot is ready. I think it should roughly take the same time at your place. Keep the pots at a place that is warm and it will be done earlier.... a cool place will delay decomposition.
8. By the time spring starts, I guess you should have one to two pots ready. Use that compost and start filling this pot again. And then a cycle would form. A pot of compost will be available to you after every 15 to 20 days (ie, the filling time of one pot).
9. Happy compost making." Khalid.

Moved info. I wrote in Khalid's thread on spring flush 2016 to here:

Potassium is for thick-canes & thick-petals, and when the energy is put into flowering, there isn't enough for thick canes. When the petals aren't thick enough, they won't be able to open properly and become mushy & balled up.

Another reason: plenty of potassium provided, but excess calcium bind with potassium, making it less available. Keep in mind University of CA at Berkeley's recommendation for roses: twice more potassium than calcium.

I put rain-overflow-hose right on Stephen's Big Purple, which received at least 80 gallons of rain dumping on it per day. All the rain that hit my large roof went into the gutter and dump on that rose. To counteract so much water dumping on it, I put red-lava-rock (high in potassium & iron) ... Stephen Big purple has the thickest canes ever. It stands UPRIGHT just like Charlotte at the rose park.

In contrast, I put too much gypsum (calcium sulfate) and cracked corn (pH 4) into the planting hole of Madame Isaac Pereire and Souv. Du President Lincoln ... both have tiny & super-thin stems than lie all over the ground. Too much calcium drives down potassium. Potassium is essential for thick canes, and thick roots, besides flowering.

Moved info. on how gypsum (calcium sulfate) zap out fragrance into here:

To improve fragrance on the fruit scent like Pat, plus to prevent mildew, I would UP the pH of the soil ... Wood-ash and pea-gravel are good choices, and stay away from anything with acidic sulfur (like gypsum or sulfate of potash). Pea-gravel is a better choice than wood-ash, since wood-ash release is too fast: too much salt, which harms roots, and too much calcium, which will zap the scent.

Pea-gravel has calcium & variety of minerals, and slow-released, when acidic rain breaks it down. I zapped the great-myrrh scent from Mary Magdalene when I used acid fertilizer with sulfur. One guy besides me noticed that when the pH goes down, that DECREASE fruity scent and myrrh scent, but DOES NOT affect the Old rose scent. When the pH goes up, or very alkaline, the Old rose or Damask scent is gone.

I know for sure that gypsum decreased the fragrance, since I zapped the wild-rose scent from Basyes B. rose. But alkaline pea-gravel IMPROVED the fragrance on Christopher Marlowe and Tchaikosky, and Perle d' Or.

For that reason I no longer use gypsum, except to LOWER the pH of my tap-water near 9 . Moved info. on Pat Austin into here.

Pat Austin likes it wet & shady, and alkaline. I have Pat Austin for 5 years, and the only time it broke out in mildew was last fall, when I gave it Brewer's yeast (pH 4) mixed with acidic rain water (pH 5.6). Pat HATES ACID, another time I dumped gypsum (with 17% sulfur) on Pat, and it broke out in blackspot instantly . Pat is healthy when I keep it alkaline, like giving pea-gravel or lime (both with pH over 8) during heavy rain. Pat blooms like this in less than 4 hours of sun, but in full-sun Pat tends to mildew a bit (even with alkalinity) in dry & hot weather.

Great Job Straw. The information given in this thread is too valuable to be wasted in so many threads. It's a great effort that you have collected it at one place and I am sure it will answer many questions that members might have.

A question for Straw: If I immediately want to raise the pH level in a pot or a hole, what is the safest way? I don't want to add wood ash because it has lot of calcium plus high in salt. How about adding a tea spoon of baking soda in a gallon of water and watering the bush with it? Can this be done? Want to do this to fight the mildew that is consistently bothering some of my rose bushes.

thanks and best regards

Phosphorus is best in organic form, rather via high-chemical phosphorus. I spent time searching for agricultural benefits with monopotassium phosphate at NPK 0-54-32 (very high phosphorus) and COULD NOT FIND any benefits in agriculture.

Rose tissue analysis by U. of California at Davis stated equal nitrogen to potassium, 1/2 calcium, an 1/10 phosphorus as best for roses.

Phosphorus is best supplied as SOLUBLE in diluted amount, as needed, rather than accumulate to cause harm. See abstract in citrus crop:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304423802001218

" The response of lemon to phosphorus, in the first 4 years was linear up to the highest P rate applied, which increased the average yield over 15%. In the fifth year, there was no response to P and in the sixth year, a negative response was observed. These results might be related to P accumulation in the top layer of soil, mainly for the highest rates of P, as shown by the results of soil testing within the years. Leaf analyses for N, P and K, related with maximum yield, were respectively, 15–18, 1.8–2.2 and 15–20 g kg−1"."

From Straw: Note the above ratio of equal nitrogen to potassium at 15 to 18, and only 1.8 to 2.2 for phosphorus !! Phosphorus is plenty in soil, but the availability is restricted by pH level and loaminess of soil.

Instead of adding chemical phosphorus, it's easier to make soil loamier .. sandy soil releases phosphorus quickly, versus clay soil tie up phosphorus in insoluble compound with magnesium or calcium.

Straw: Thanks for the information on phosphorus. I ensure that my compost contains minimum of phosphorus and lot of potassium and calcium and just enough nitrogen.

A question for Straw: If I immediately want to raise the pH level in a pot or a hole, what is the safest way? I don't want to add wood ash because it has lot of calcium plus high in salt. How about adding a tea spoon of baking soda in a gallon of water and watering the bush with it? Can this be done? Want to do this to fight the mildew that is consistently bothering some of my rose bushes.

Khalid: I read both of your posts regarding baking soda. Here's from Wikipedia for 1 teaspoon of baking soda: Sodium 1,259 mg or 52% and zero Potassium.

So baking soda is VERY SALTY, I took out 1 teaspoon and it holds 6 tiny green peas. The best way to raise the pH is SLOWLY, through colorful pebbles, be it pea-gravel (from the bottom of river), or red-lava-rock (from volcano).

I'm next to a limestone quarry, I came there and they gave me lots of dolomitic dust for free, in any sizes !! I asked for gritty dolomitic lime (has both calcium and magnesium) so I can spread on side-walk to prevent icy & slippery spots in winter. Different rocks contain different minerals. Reddish rock-dust are higher in iron. And granite dust is high in phosphorus & decent potassium.

Rock dust or Azomite both have high pH, lower salt than baking soda, and supply trace elements & calcium and potassium, plus UP the pH faster than rocks.

Granite dust from a company that makes granite counter makes wonderful addition to pots that UP phosphorus and zinc. For info. on rock dust, see below link:

http://www.gardensalive.com/product/rock-your-garden-with-rock-dust/you_bet_your_garden

" You'll find some packaged rock dusts for sale mail order and at hipper garden centers. But many organic growers buy it in bulk from local quarries and gravel pits—the places where the raw material of the stuff our gardens used up long ago is mined. Our OG article sources recommended that you call up a few local 'sand, rock and gravel' suppliers and tell them you want "a very fine material you can add to your soil as a source of plant mineral nutrients." They might call it pond sand, pond silt, pond fines or swamp sand; crusher screenings, crusher fines, bug dust, float, fill sand, or flume sand. Most gravel workers, we were told, will not call it 'dust'.

The most important thing is the size of the particles—the closer to it feeling like flour between your fingers the better. Specifically, the dust should fit through a fine 200-mesh screen. Oh, and although the quarry workers probably won't call it 'dust', it IS dusty, so wear a dust mask when you work with it.

Different rocks contain different minerals, and so serious gardeners and farmers have a soil test done that includes mineral needs, and then seek out the specific kinds of rock that can help. Granite dust, for instance, contains lots of potassium—the K in the NPK fertilizer ratio. Rock phosphate, a 'single dust' that's available in packages at most garden centers, just supplies phosphorus. But ground basalt (pronounced "ba-salt") contains a nicer mix—phosphorus, potassium, calcium, magnesium and iron.

An application of 10 to 15 pounds of mixed rock dust will re-mineralize a hundred square feet of garden for the next three or four years. Don't use more than that and don't add rock dust every season—just once every three to five years. "

Oh - rock dust ups the phosophorous and potassium - so the rock dust I'm going to get should do the trick. Oh, and I should just add it every 3 or 4 years even though being in a pot it might get washed out pretty quickly?

I just bought a few big bags of pea gravel! Yay!!! Would you say that I should put a cup of pea gravel in each rose pot - or a whole lot more?

Thanks so much, Straw!!

Carol

Carol: If your roses are grafted on multiflora, it can handle acidic rain well, I won't even use pea-gravel for multiflora rootstock. Jess' roses are grafted on multiflora and she uses gypsum (17%) with sulfate of potash (21%) .. no problems even with rain.

But if your roses are French Romantica or Meilland roses, or the glossy type of foliage (like Pat Austin, Evelyn, or Bolero .. all these prefer alkaline) ... then it's 1/4 cup per 2-gallons or 8 liter. Glossy foliage needs more minerals. That's once a year in spring rain.

If your roses are own-root, use much less pea-gravel for heavy rain. Own-roots are wimpy and can't secret as much acid as Dr. Huey root-stock, or Khalid's Centifolia-rootstock.

If your roses are grafted on Dr. Huey ... they prefer alkaline, so use the same rate 1/4 cup per 8 liter of soil, once a year or whenever all the gravel break down, depending on how much rain.

I looked online and read that most roses in Canada are on multiflora rootstock. So maybe I should take back the 2 bags ($22 each) of pea gravel?

I do have a lot of Meilland roses and Austins.

So the rule for me is this?

1. When there is a lot of rain use pea gravel on roses with glossy leaves?

So much to learn!!

Carol

Carol: I would get the money back from the $22 per bag ... that's way too expensive. Pea gravel is sold here cheap at $3 per HUGE 40 lb. bag ... that's why I use it.

The glacial rock dust you ordered is plenty to help with glossy foliage, or with Meilland roses. Potting soil doesn't have the minerals like clay, so rock dust will help.

Fantastic site on nutrient deficiencies in plants. My alkaline heavy dolomitic clay, pH near 8, is deficient in manganese, phosphorus, potassium, but tested exceedingly high in magnesium.

https://www.hydroponics.net/learn/nutrient_deficiencies.php

Another good site on what's in excess produce a deficiency. The below chart is right about inverse relationship between Fe (iron) and Mn (manganese). University of Illinois extension backed that with a research with local trees.

The below chart is also right about too much phosphorus (as in sandy Florida) induce deficiencies in iron, zinc, and copper (the last 2 are anti-fungal agents). Also too much potassium and/or calcium induce deficiency in magnesium.

But there's a typo in the chart, instead of too much phosphorus induce potassium, they put a K instead of P. K stand for potassium, and P stand for phosphorus .. so it doesn't make sense for K to induce deficiency in K !!

Things that induce deficiency in potassium (K) are: high nitrogen, or high phosphorus, or high calcium, or high magnesium (like my clay), or high in sodium (as in baking soda, or salt in fertilizer). Tap water is high in hydrated lime (calcium hydroxide) which drives down potassium.

https://www.atlantishydroponics.com/info/nutrient-deficiency-symptoms-in-plants

Moved info. I wrote in another thread:

Khalid: I notice leaf-curl over and some yellowish splotches on the leaves of Chippendale .. possibly a magnesium deficiency ???? See below chart:

https://www.hydroponics.net/learn/nutrient_deficiencies.php

Magnesium deficiency is induced when there's too much FREE calcium, such as gypsum or wood-ash. High potassium also drives down magnesium. I put tons of gypsum to break up my heavy clay plus using sulfate of potash, resulting in leaf-curl-over in all 10-tomatoes ... was worth it since I got bumper crop which I shared with 5 neighbors.

But with roses, it was down in quality: I got leaf-curl and smaller-bloom on Angel Face rose, since I used fluffy potting soil, plus too much gypsum.

My heavy clay was tested very high in magnesium .... magnesium is what makes soil sticky. I got wood-ash from my neighbor, it's fluffy like sand, rather than sticking together. Rocks have plenty of magnesium, same with beans (perfect balance of magnesium and potassium). If I have to supply magnesium to soil, I won't even touch Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) .... I would use gravel dust and beans.

Any clay is high in magnesium, evidenced by being sticky like mud. If I walk on my clay while it's wet, I have to use a knife to pry off the sticky-mud from my shoes. http://gsrpdf.lib.msu.edu/ticpdf.py?file=/1970s/1972/721101.pdf

From above link: "Magnesium in the soil originates in the decomposition of rocks containing minerals such as brotite, dolomite and olivine."

One site stated that dolomitic clay (has both calcium and magnesium) is best for Austin roses. Now I understand why: Calcium is for more petals, magnesium needs to be balanced with potassium for bigger bloom, thicker & firm stems, plus disease/pest prevention.

The ratio of nutrients is important. Re-post what U. of CA found in rose-tissue: http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7465.html

For low-ratios in roses, it would be 3 Nitrogen, 2 Potassium, and 0.2 Phosphorus, plus 1 Calcium and 0.25 magnesium. For ppm it would be 50 iron, 30 manganese, 30 boron, 15 zinc, and 5 copper

For high balanced-ratios of nutrients in rose tissue in %: 5 nitrogen, 3 potassium, 0.3 phosphorus, 1.5 calcium, and 0.35 magnesium. For ppm it would be 250 manganese, 150 iron, 15 copper, 50 zinc, and 60 boron.

From Wikipedia: "Excess potassium, generally due to fertilizers, further aggravates the stress from the magnesium deficiency,[2] as does aluminium toxicity.[3] ... adding crushed dolomitic limestone to the soil can rectify magnesium deficiencies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium_deficiency_(plants)#/media/File:Frangula_alnus_with_magnesium_deficiency.jpg

From Straw: aluminum toxicity goes up when the soil becomes more acidic. Dolomitic limestone is very alkaline, that will UP the pH level. Below is a pic. of magnesium deficiency in tomato plant. The leaf-curl-up is through-out the plants, plus yellowing on older leaves for magnesium deficiency. If the leaf-curl is downward, then it's potassium or copper deficiency. See below link:

https://www.hydroponics.net/learn/nutrient_deficiencies.php

Since my alkaline clay soil is tested deficient in manganese but plenty of magnesium .. I check on the best source of manganese, it's in cloves at 127%, next is oats at 96%, then chickpeas, spinach, pineapple, and pumpkin seeds at over 70%, also cocoa .. which explains why my plants have darker colors with cocoa mulch.

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=77

Captaincompost posted fantastic info. in organic gardening FAQ, entitled "What are some Great Natural Pesticidal and Fungicidal Recipes?"

http://faq.gardenweb.com/discussions/2766356/what-are-some-great-natural-pesticidal-and-fungicidal-recipes

4. Canola oil, vegetable oils - mineral oils work also, but they are made from petroleum products. Oil sprays suffocate soft body insects

6. Apple Cider Vinegar - Use 1-2 tbls per gallon of water for a mild fungicide or acidic liquid fertilizer. Like alcohol can be a natural herbicide if too much is used in tea. Most white vinegars are made from petroleum products. Apple cider vinegar can contain up to 30 trace elements.

7. Corn meal - Use as a topdressing or in a tea for fungal control.

9. Ground cloves - great repellant and can kill flying insects. Use several tblsp per gallon of water.

10. Japanese beetles - Simple inexpensive traps can be made by placing several small open milk jugs, cans, or buckets all over your garden. Inside the cans place some rotten fruit or fruit cocktail in 1/2 can of water with 1-2 tbls of liquid soap and 1-2 tblsp of canola oil. You can also add dry molasses or liquid molasses for extra microbial power in the soapy tea mixture to attract and kill them

14. Citrus acid and molasses - repels and kills fire ants and similar pests. Mix 1-2 cups per gallon of soapy water. Hot boiling water mixed with garlic products, poured over the fire ant mounds will also kill the queens. You can produce citrus acid from crushing whole oranges or lemons into a tea.

15. Tobacco products - this is definitely a classic natural pesticide, but most organic gardeners today stay away from it. It may kill beneficials like ladybugs if abused.

17. Dolomitic Limestome, Hydrated Lime, Bone Meal, Egg Shells - sprinkle a little lime or crushed egg shells around soil areas where snails and slugs live. Most high calcium carbonate products will work. Also a light dusting of lime on plants acts as a fungal control.

http://faq.gardenweb.com/discussions/2766356/what-are-some-great-natural-pesticidal-and-fungicidal-recipes

Great info Straw. Really helps. Now I have to checkout from where can I get dolomitic limestone? I also have to get Potassium Silicate. In the meanwhile, I can make a tea of crushed red beans and spinach and feed them to the affected roses. Spinach has lot of iron too, will it cure the iron deficiency?

Another question Straw: If I grind red beans in a grinder making bean flour and then put some spinach in it and make a paste of it in the blender. After adding enough water, if I let it stay overnight and then feed this tea to the affected roses in the morning, will it address mg deficiency? Or this whole thing will have to be decomposed in a compost and only then it can be used?

thanks and best regards

Magnesium definitely gives a glossy shine to leaves. When Gruss an Teplitz came down with mildew in potting soil (has zero-nutrients peatmoss & plus chemical fertilizer) .. I planted it in my alkaline clay (high in magnesium) and mildew went away.

When I used corn meal as fertilizer, that impart a glossy shine to my roses. Corn is high in magnesium, always sleep well if I have that before bedtime. Here's the composition of 1 cup of corn, according to Wikipedia: 53% magnesium, 14% potassium, 25% iron, 7% vitamin A, and 1% vitamin C, plus 50% vitamin B6 (known to help with sleep). Corn is fantastic for one's sleep. Note the glossy shine on Bolero rose in my high-magnesium alkaline clay .. never have mildew despite in a dry spot, with lots of tree-roots.

Below is the base of Frederic Mistral rose, always clean. I dumped corn meal around the bush. Corn meal pH is 4, which balances out my alkaline clay at pH near 8. Note the shiny leaves of Marie Pavie on lower left (that's from my dolomitic clay, since I didn't use corn-meal on that one, Marie Pavie is always healthy). Fred died in that cold & dry winter when it was 30 degree below zero.

Straw: Great info on corn meal. Did you use it in the raw form directly in the rose bed / pot or did you decompose it and then put it in the bed?

Thanks Straw!! You're the best!

Carol

Straw: I have dipped around 500 grams of red beans in water. They will be soft by tomorrow and I will make a paste of it in the grinder. Will also grind whole corn the same way to make a paste and ultimately a tea of beans, corn and spinach. Will feed it to the affected roses and will also put the pulp on the top soil. I hope it helps Straw.

best regards

Khalid: here's the government site to check for the pH of foods:

http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodborneIllnessContaminants/CausesOfIllnessBadBugBook/ucm122561.htm

In the above link, pH of spinach is 5.5 to 6.8. My concern is green, once decompose will give off acid. That's why alfalfa is great for my alkaline clay, but other folks reported that alfalfa-tea & meal gave their roses blackspots.

I don't think decaying green is good for acidic soil, unless it's buffered by hard-minerals like pea-gravel or rock dust. Magnesium oxide powder is cheap & VERY ALKALINE & works wonder in lower the acid in one's tummy to treat heartburn, that's a better choice than magnesium sulfate (Epsom salt) for roses. Epsom salt is salty & bitter, while magnesium oxide has no taste & a bit chalky & very alkaline.

Khalid: My first choice would be magnesium oxide for roses, rather than magnesium sulfate (Epsom salt). Epsom salt is neutral in pH, but magnesium oxide is VERY ALKALINE, and neutralize acids in soil, thus best in treating mildew. My concern about using organics: corn, beans, oatmeal is that once decay, they give off acid, which will drop your soil's pH further.

pH of corn is listed in the link as 6 to 7.5, with sweet corn being 7.3, alkaline. They mean FRESH corn, since canned corn is listed as pH 6, and my dry-cracked corn is very acidic, around pH 4. My dry-cracked corn is stored for over a year, so it's half-decomposed, which bring the pH down to 4.

When I soaked too much dried cracked corn in water, it made the water more acidic than rain even, and a few roses broke out in blackspots immediately. But just a bit of old cracked corn was perfect to bring down my high pH water & release nutrients in hard clay.

Red kidney bean is poisonous to human if eaten raw due to its plant lectins. I check on lectins' function: "Binding Nitrogen-Fixing Bacteria to legume Roots: among the possible functions of plant lectins is their participation in binding nitrogen-fixing bacteria to legume roots."

Red-kidney-bean Lectins also have metal-binding site and carbohydrate binding-site .... I hope it's not poisonous to roses. Cocoa mulch at pH 5.6 is poisonous to dogs ... but it was fantastic for my roses in alkaline clay.

http://poisonousplants.ansci.cornell.edu/toxicagents/lectins.html

Below is a link which lists the pH of food, with beans in the range of 5.6 to 6.5. I tested the pH of lentil vs. black-eyed beans, using red-cabbage juice, and lentil is on the acid-side (5.6), while black-eyed beans is near neutral pH .. around 6.8.

http://foodsafety.wisc.edu/business_food/files/Approximate_pH.pdf

Khalid: Iron deficiency is pale-young leaves, with dark-green veins, which you don't have. What I see in Chippendale is blotchy yellow spots & curled leaves, typical of magnesium deficiency. Question: If you take a clump of soil from Chippendale's pot and rub it between your finger .. does it crumble easily and leave no sticky residue on your finger? That means it's low in magnesium.

Magnesium is what makes soil sticky, and sticky foods like beans, and oatmeal are high in magnesium. Oatmeal has 9% iron and 12% magnesium. One year I had a stale huge container of oatmeal ($2) so I dumped into a planting hole, and that glued up my clay even more ... probably best for someone with loose-soil.

My clay is exceedingly high in magnesium, and if I take a clump of dry soil, it's hard like rock, and if the soil is wet, it sticky like mud .. hard to wash off. I still have clay stuck in the crevices of my sandals for months. Magnesium is the "glue" than holds soil together.

Below is a pic. of black-eyed beans, pH around 6.8. Wikipedia listed the below bean's magnesium at 18%, potassium at 18%, calcium at 18%, iron at 9%, vitamin B-6 at 5%, vitamin A at 14%, and vitamin C at 6%. Vitamin C is essential for plants' growth.

Jess: Thanks to our chat, I remember that wheat bran is highest in magnesium. For 1 cup of wheat bran, the % of daily value:

Calcium at 4%, iron at 34%, magnesium at 89%, phosphorus at 59%, and potassium at 20%, zinc at 28%, copper at 29%, manganese at 333% and selenium at 64%

Read More http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5742/2#ixzz46JnNxT9C

Magnesium helps with back pain. When I was in my 30's and deficient in magnesium, I had the worse back-pain ... I ate while standing up, since sitting down was painful. At that time I had craving for sweet corn .. I went to Old-Country-Buffet (largest selection of buffet-food) .. and ate mostly corn, while ignoring ribs, shrimp, chicken. Sweet corn has 53% magnesium, 14% potassium, 25% iron, and 50% vitamin B6 (essential for sleep).

During my flu-shot reaction, I took magnesium oxide powder daily ... slept well. Magnesium oxide powder is NOT salty like Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) ... might be applicable for roses. Magnesium oxide powder is cheap & VERY ALKALINE & works wonder in lower the acid to treat heartburn & stomach acid.

A bad chair also worsens back-pain, and a bumpy mattress can also cause back pain. Tap water across America are high in calcium, while low in magnesium. An excerpt from livestrong.com: "most Americans do not obtain enough dietary magnesium. If you suffer from low levels of magnesium, you may experience any number of symptoms, including muscle twitching, spasms, numbness and tension, headaches, anxiety, insomnia, backaches and pain.

Clinical Evidence

A number of studies have confirmed the benefits of magnesium supplementation for chronic pain conditions like back pain. One study, published in the July-August 2009 issue of the journal "Pain Medicine" found that magnesium supplementation helped to significantly reduce pain among patients suffering from complex regional pain syndrome, a disorder that can cause serious pain in any part of the body. Additionally, in a September 23, 2002, interview with CTV News, chronic pain specialist Dr. Linda Rapson states that many of her patients who complain of chronic muscle aches and spasms are deficient in magnesium. Rapson reports that "virtually all" of her patients improve when she treats them with magnesium."

http://www.livestrong.com/article/502652-magnesium-for-back-pain/

Yes, the iron deficiency looks familiar. Last year I had to give some roses iron as the heavy rains had made them iron deficient.

Carol

Carol: Rain leaches out nitrogen the most ... nitrogen has a mobility of 10, compared to potassium of 3. Nitrogen deficiency cause the oldest & lowest leaves to be pale, while iron deficiency cause the upper & youngest leaves to be pale.

Iron deficiency is on youngest leaves, while magnesium deficiency is on older leaves, plus magnesium deficiency cause leaves to curl upward & a bit crinkled, rather than flat.

Below pic. from the web shows nitrogen deficiency, with the lowest, or oldest leaves being yellowish:

Khalid: That's exciting !! I pray for you & your wife safety. I look forward to your travel pics. A lady told me that Switzerland has the most beautiful roses .. cool & rainy climate is best for Austin roses .. but that country is also the most expensive to dine.

I watch Rick Steves' travel-video while doing the treadmill & elliptical machines .. when Rick went to Switzerland, it was too expensive to dine, so he packed a lunch (from farmer's market) of salami, bread, cheese, dried apricot & some wine and had a wonderful picnic.

What I post in this thread helped with my sleep last night. Since my blood sugar dips during the night, I have to eat well before bedtime. I had high-magnesium foods before bed: banana, yellow corn, pumpkin seeds, avocado, peanut butter & bread. Had the best sleep ever with vivid dreams.

Europe's tap water is known as alkaline (high in calcium hydroxide), but they have bottled water which is high in magnesium (good for sleeping & help with headaches). Below link list what foods are high in magnesium, and which bottled water in Europe is highest in magnesium:

http://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2007/2/report_water/Page-02

Mineral Water Magnesium Content

Original Fountain of Youth Mineral Water (Florida) 609 mg/L

Apollinaris (Germany) (410 mg/L of sodium) 130 mg/L

Adobe Springs (California and other western states) 110 mg/L

Badoit (France) 85 mg/L

Colfax (Iowa) 91 mg/L

Deep Rock (Colorado) 60 mg/L

Evian 24 mg/L

Gerolsteiner (Germany) 108 mg/L

Noah’s California Spring Water 110 mg/L

Pellegrino Sparkling Mineral Water (Italy) (43.6 mg/L of sodium) 55.9 mg/L

Manitou Mineral Water (Colorado) 43 mg/L

Rosbacher 93 mg/L

St. Gero 109.4 mg/L

Both Apollinaris and Pellegrino contain more sodium than most other waters, and therefore should be avoided.

FOODS HIGHEST IN MAGNESIUM

Wheat flour, whole grain (1 cup) 166

Oat bran (1 cup, raw) 221

Trail mix with sunflower (1 cup) 235

Almonds (1 oz; 24 nuts) 78

Oatmeal (1 cup, cooked) 56

Artichokes (1 cup) 101

Pumpkin seeds (1 oz; 142 seeds) 151

Barley (1 cup, raw) 158

Rice, brown (1 cup, cooked) 84

Beans, black (1 cup, cooked) 120

Soybeans (1 cup, cooked) 148

Beans, lima (1 cup, cooked) 101

Spinach (1 cup, cooked) 163

Brazil nuts (1 oz; 6-8 nuts) 107

Halibut (1/2 filet) 170

Walnuts (1 oz; 14 halves) 45

Filberts, hazelnuts (1 oz) 46

http://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2007/2/report_water/Page-02

Jess: You have slightly acidic red clay, and I never see mildew on your roses ... they are so strong & upright with thick canes, plus shiny luster on leaves. Red clay is the best. My yellowish clay is too alkaline .. I'm next to a dolomitic limestone quarry. Dolomitic lime has 25% calcium and 10% magnesium ... resulting in my soil-pH near 8, and roses are faded (too much calcium).

Oat bran is cheap & high in magnesium plus silicon. Silicon is for strong & shiny hair in human & skin-glow & strong nails. So the shine on the leaves could be from the silicon in my heavy clay as well as magnesium, with its stickiness for best-water-retention.

http://www.nowloss.com/Foods-high-in-silicon.htm

Silicon is plenty in clay and minerals, it's bound up as hard-mineral in my clay, but rain-water releases that. See below link for silicon values in food:

http://www.vitalhealthzone.com/nutrition/nutrition-questions/Lesa-Rusher1/foods-with-highest-silica-content-amount-of-silica.html

There are a number of foods which are an excellent source of silica (silicon) and they are. Oatmeal should be on the list too.

• Banana (yellow, peeled), 250g - 13.60mg
• Beer, 1L - 19.2mg
• High bran cereal, 100g - 10.17mg
• Bread (wholegrain), 200g - 8.94mg
• Raisin (California seedless), 100g - 8.25mg
• Mineral water (high silica), 500mL - 7.23mg
• Green beans (cooked), 250g - 6.10mg
• Carrot (raw, peeled), 200g - 4.58mg
• Bread (wholemeal), 200g - 4.50mg
• Brown rice, 200g - 4.14mg
• Mineral water (regular), 500mL - 3.44mg

**** From Straw: it's interesting that the plant horsetail absorb INORGANIC silica from soil and convert to ORGANIC silicon that humans can consume for health benefits. See below link:

http://www.alive.com/health/silica-the-forgotten-nutrient/#sthash.7UYvtbLE.dpuf

" Within the plant kingdom, the common herb horsetail is extremely rich in silica. We all have seen this plant that looks like a miniature Christmas tree. It pops up everywhere in spring. The smaller variety, spring horsetail, grows in sand/clay rich soil.

Without silica, we would have brittle bones and be prone to osteoporosis because the renewal of bones and creation of cartilage depend heavily on vegetal silica as a nutrient in combination with calcium. Broken bones heal much sooner when our food intake is high in silica or when supplemented with vegetal silica.

While horsetail is the pinnacle herb for silica content, one of the best food sources for silica is oats. A breakfast muesli made with raw soaked oats eaten daily supplies lots of silica. (Guess why horses fed with oats are so strong and have such shiny coats?) -

See more at: http://www.alive.com/health/silica-the-forgotten-nutrient/#sthash.7UYvtbLE.dpuf

Below is a picture of spring horse tail plant, high in silica, from the internet ..They are plenty in Michigan, but I don't see them in my alkaline clay region:

I put cracked corn in the planting hole of Tchaikosky and Betty White's roses. When those arrived in pots from the nursery, their leaves were pale and dull, but when I put into my alkaline clay, their leaves became shiny. I also noted that when I used corn-meal to fertilizer roses, they get this glossy shine.

I think minerals work TOGETHER, rather than separate, so the magnesium, plus silicon, plus potassium in corn work together for the shiny-luster in roses.

In my previous house there were 2 neighbors: one used Bayer spray & chemical fertilizer on her 25+ hybrid teas, the other used horse manure ... she owned a horse. The roses fertilized with horse manure has this shiny luster & gloss on the leaves, while the other neighbor's roses have dull leaves with chemical fertilizer. Horse's diet of oats & alfalfa have something to do with that.

http://www.alive.com/health/silica-the-forgotten-nutrient/#sthash.7UYvtbLE.dpuf

Food (100 g) Silica Content (mg) Oats 595.0 Millet 500.0 Barley 233.0 Potatoes 200.0 Whole wheat grain 158.0 Jersusalem artichoke 36.0 Red beets 21.0 Corn 19.0 Asparagus 18.0

Below pic. shows the shiny luster on Betty White rose (prefer it alkaline, I should NOT had put so much cracked corn in the hole !!) Second pic. is the shiny luster on Tchaikosky rose, but when I gave it acidic fertilizer (brewer's yeast at pH 4) it broke out in mildew. Last pic. is my 1st bloom of pale-yellow Tchaikosky in a bouquet:

I ran out of alfalfa last year and used pea-grave & red-lava-rock .. and there was less shine on leaves. Acid like gypsum (with 17% sulfur) really zap-out the shine.

All the below leaves' shiny-luster is achieved through alfalfa meal in my pH 7.7 clay. Alfalfa gives a shinier luster than corn, since alfalfa is at pH 5.8, versus cracked corn at pH 4. The more acid, the less the shine. Alfalfa has the ORGANIC chelated silicon, easily available to plants. Below is shiny Arthur Bell rose, which I killed since it has less petals & become like a double-petal in hot temp:

Below Marie Pavie is always healthy & really like Standlee alfala pellets with no salt:

Shiny luster on Marie Pavie, achieved through alfalfa:

Pat Austin's leaves are VERY SHINY with alfalfa:

Shiny leaves on Yves' seedling, with alfalfa in the planting hole:

The roses with the most shiny leaves, like Bolero and Evelyn, also prefer it alkaline. Horse manure is actually greasy their diet high in oats. Below is Bolero floribunda rose, the white stuff is gritty dolomitic lime to raise the pH.

Below is shiny leaves of Evelyn, with lots of alfalfa & horse manure:

Straw - thanks for the info - according to your info, it was definitely iron deficiency. I have had leaves that do the edge curling up thing. So now I know that's mg deficiency. So when that happens I should add something (LOL). What should I add, my dear, Straw? I'm hopeless. Chuckle.

Your rose leaves look amazing!!!!

Carol

Jess: Hope your new chair suits you and you get rid of your back pain. Praying for your good health.

Straw: Lava rock and pea gravel are not available in Islamabad and if they are, they are not sold with these names. This is a problem. Many herbs and natural things have local names which are different. However, I should be able to get Magnesium Oxide from a chemical store perhaps. Would have to get it in next two days and feed it at least once before I leave for a 20 days tour.

Thanks for such an informative write up, as always.

Khalid: Best wishes to your Europe-travel. You are right about different names for one item. Alfalfa is known as Lucern in Australia. Other names for alfalfa: "Feuille de Luzerne, Grand Trèfle, Herbe aux Bisons, Herbe à Vaches, Lucerne, Luzerne, Medicago, Medicago sativa, Phyoestrogen, Phyto-œstrogène, Purple Medick, Sanfoin."

Carol: I check pics. of roses when I mixed alfalfa meal with potting soil, yes, they had MORE GLOSSY leaves than my pots with pea gravel & sulfate of potash & blood meal for nitrogen and iron.

Tomatoes with alfalfa meal NPK 3-1-2 had the biggest leaves & healthy fast growth, but less fruits than my using NPK 4-6-6 with sulfate of potash.

Alfalfa meal has magnesium & other nutrients with NPK 3-1-2, high in nitrogen. Advantages: 1) fast growth 2) glossy leaves 3) pH of 5.8 to neutralize alkaline tap water 4) decent iron to prevent pale youngest leaves. 5) better moisture retention than peat moss.

Disadvantages: 1) too much nitrogen, really need sulfate of potash to balance out. 2) its magnesium glued up my already-high magnesium clay. 3) Not best for plastic pots, it retains water too well if more than 1 cup per 2 gallon soil. 4) With its pH of 5.8 an alkaline agent needs to be used during acidic rain.

http://buildasoil.com/products/alfalfa-meal

Alfalfa Meal contains high amounts of: Vitamins CaroteneVitamin A Choline Vitamin BVitamin E Niacin Thiamine RiboflavinBiotin Pantothenic AcidFolic Acid Minerals PotassiumMagnesium Selenium SulphurManganese Iron Plus 16 Amino Acids Triacontanol, growth hormone

High phosphorus induce iron deficiency. Both Michigan State Extension and Colorado University Extention warned about high phosphorus:

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/mg/gardennotes/232.html

"Phosphorus may be present in high concentrations, however, it may not be in a plant available form. With annual applications of compost or manure, phosphorus levels will likely be adequate. Deficiencies are most likely to occur in new gardens where the organic matter content is low and in soils with a high pH (7.8 to 8.3).

Excessive phosphorus fertilizer can aggravate iron and zinc deficiencies and increase soil salt content.

When a phosphate fertilizer is applied to a soil, the phosphorus is quickly immobilized in the soil profile. It typically moves only about an inch. Therefore, it needs be tilled into the rooting zone to be most effective."

Some roses have a higher need for iron than others. Dave and Deb in HMF warned about Double-Delight has a high need for iron, they are right. Below are own-root Yves seedling (dark green & glossy leaves) and own-root Double Delight (pale top leaves, with iron deficiency). Both have alfalfa meal, but my mistake was using Jobes NPK 2-7-4, too high in phosphorus.

Lots of information!! You are a genius, and I love how you've experimented and learned from what you've done!

Carol

Carol: I need to thank you and Khalid for great questions which help me to solve problems in my garden. Re-post the info. in the other thread, I finally understand why leaves "pucker-up" with magnesium or boron deficiency, both are induced by too much calcium.

Khalid: the advantage of rocks or pebbles is SLOW-RELEASE, so it's safer. If I don't like red-lava-rock leaving red iron-stains on the leaves, I just take them off ... but I can't undo the damage of gypsum that drop the pH level with its 17% sulfur, or lime that shoot up the pH too fast.

Taking off rocks or pebbles takes 1 min, compare that to hours scraping off cow manure .. the damage was done too fast & could not reverse that cow-manure-disaster.

The advantage of pebbles/gravel is it's naturally released whenever acidic rain hits it ... so the release is controlled gently by Nature, rather than us foolishly dumping all at once.

I take magnesium oxide daily with lemon juice, only 1/2 teaspoon is enough to have a MAJOR laxative effect in human. One Amazon customer complained of explosive diarrhea since he took 1 teaspoon. Rose is smaller than a human, so 1/4 teaspoon, or just a touch is enough to UP the pH-level ... it's very alkaline.

Calcium is just the opposite: it's constipating, tense up muscle & contract heart ... versus magnesium is laxative, relaxes muscle, used as IV to treat heart diseases. Taste-wise, Magnesium oxide have zero salt, versus salty & bitter Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate).

When I gave Angel Face rose too much gypsum (calcium sulfate), its leaves crinkled & curled up .. plus it lost the scent. Same with Bayes Blueberry: the foliage became ugly & dull.

Too much calcium tense up and contract muscle in humans, which explains why leaves tense up .. and pucker up instead of flat & relaxed like normal leaves. OLDER leaves crinkled & curled up is typical of magnesium deficiency. YOUNGER leaves crinkled & curled up with yellow blotches is boron deficiency. Both are induced by too much calcium.

Too much calcium also drives down potassium, resulting in less blooms & faded color. Calcium can be from gypsum (calcium sulfate), or lime (calcium carbonate), or hydrated lime (calcium hydroxide) which is added by municipals to treat tap-water .. this form of calcium shoots up the pH of tap water, causing magnesium and boron deficiency.

Too much calcium drives down potassium, thus roses become stingy with tap-water high in hydrated lime. Too much calcium also cause balling of blooms: petals bunch-up, rather than relax and open-up.

Below is a picture of boron deficiency, manifested as crinkled & curl-up YOUNGEST leaves, too much calcium induces boron deficiency.

oh WOW I have been missing out on so much fantastic info and photo's....

reading and re-reading now...

Khalid have a safe and enjoyable journey. Looking forward to see your photo's and your story behind the photo's....

Straw, I am avoiding the gypsum as of now...

Your roses look amazing! those leaves are perfect, absolutely beautiful....shining with health...

Straw I have a question...about the lava rocks & pebbles...can it be any pebble sold at home stores, because we also have the same problem as Khalid over here...impossible to find. Also, if it gets really hot like we get over here, would rocks or pebbles heat up the soil?

I will hopefully have my own alfalfa during next summer only, until then can I use some alfalfa/lucern with molasses and crushed corn added? that's all I can source around here....would it be a good idea to sprinkle some around the roses for winter nutrients?

can I use corn meal and how do I use it, do I just sprinkle a small amount around each rose? Or should I add all of this to my composting adventure which will hopefully start soon, to use in spring?

Should I get some horse manure for winter as well or wait till spring for that as well?

my chair hasn't arrived yet but I will be checking again soon :-)))

Jess: Agree with you that rocks and pebbles heat up. Since your roses are grafted on multiflora, they don't secret as much acid as trees' roots, or Dr. Huey which our local roses are grafted on.

I put pea-gravel & red-lava-rock into the hole of Dr. Huey-rootstock to neutralize the acid secreted by that rootstock. Plus my climate is cooler & lots of shade in my garden.

I tested alfalfa vs. crushed-red-lava-rock. Result? Alfafa beat gravel since it's faster release of nutrients, plus pH at 5.8, and balanced ratio of everything .. while rocks tend to be high in calcium & magnesium & high pH ... which my clay have plenty.

Afalfa is so easy to grow, lots of them sprout from the seeds left-over on the hay that I bought. I piled alfalfa hay on top of roses through the winter to keep roots moist. Will post a pic. of how vigorous roses through cold zone 5a winter (topped with alfalfa hay), versus roses with black-canes with wet & acidic maple leaves.

Crushed corn is acidic & molasses is acidic .. great to neutralize alkaline tap-water, but not so in acidic rain.

thank you Straw :-)

problem is I can't get hold of lucern/alfalfa hay....nothing... I can only get horse feed pellets with molasses and crushed corn....I will sow my own Alfalfa seeds in spring, then I'll probably be able to start harvesting during summer, but not enough yet...

can I add some of that before winter, and if I can get hold of horse manure?

I think I used too much Calcium...now I may need to try and build up their nutrients to go through winter?

Jess: Crushed corn can be used through the winter .. it takes long to decompose & will release acid. But your multiflora rootstock can handle acid well. Sam was the 1st one to inform about the role of beneficial fungus in soil to make soil more loamy and increase nutrients.

Corn gets moldy when I mixed in with my clay .. the beneficial mold helps to soften clay & make it loamy, plus corn holds moisture 4 times its volume. Watching bright red cardinals pecking at the corn on the ground was fun.

Cracked corn and coarse sand break up clay better than gypsum. Gypsum is useful for high-magnesium soil & alkaline soil like mine, but I don't think it's good else where, except to provide calcium in the planting hole for initial root-growth. Studies show that calcium is essential for solid root.

One year I forgot to mix gypsum with potting soil for my pots, and the roots were wimpy when I planted them in the ground. Jess, if you over-apply granular gypsum, scraping off the top layer will take away the excess .. calcium doesn't move down as fast as potassium.

The granular gypsum doesn't cause much harm on top ... one can scrape it off. But too much SOLUBLE gypsum powder dissolved fast in water and caused instant drop in pH, caused rust fungus and blackspots in my garden due to the 17% sulfur in gypsum.

Chunky pea gravel didn't cause much damage (can easily scrape it off), but lime as a powder caused instant damage: pH shot up, leaves became pale, roses stopped blooming due to too much calcium's driving down potassium & phosphorus.

Horse-feed alfalfa pellets with molasses? Alfalfa pellets' release of nutrients is fast, within a week, thus best in spring. Rain release the growth hormone in the pellets for fast spring growth. But I don't like molasses in rainy weather, it attracted rose slugs big time. That stuff is more expensive than cracked corn ..

Jess, How's the price for cracked corn in South Africa?

Straw wrote: "Khalid: the advantage of rocks or pebbles is SLOW-RELEASE, so it's safer. If I don't like red-lava-rock leaving red iron-stains on the leaves, I just take them off... but I can't undo the damage of gypsum that drop the pH level with its 17% sulfur, or lime that shoot up the pH too fast.

Taking off rocks or pebbles takes 1 min, compare that to hours scraping off cow manure .. the damage was done too fast & could not reverse that cow-manure-disaster.

The advantage of pebbles/gravel is it's naturally released whenever acidic rain hits it ... so the release is controlled gently by Nature, rather than us foolishly dumping all at once.

I take magnesium oxide daily with lemon juice, only 1/2 teaspoon is enough to have a MAJOR laxative effect in human. One Amazon customer complained of explosive diarrhea since he took 1 teaspoon. Rose is smaller than a human, so 1/4 teaspoon, or just a touch is enough to UP the pH-level ... it's very alkaline.

Calcium is just the opposite: it's constipating, tense up muscle & contract heart ... versus magnesium is laxative, relaxes muscle, used as IV to treat heart diseases. Taste-wise, Magnesium oxide have zero salt, versus salty & bitter Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate).

When I gave Angel Face rose too much gypsum (calcium sulfate), its leaves crinkled & curled up .. plus it lost the scent. Same with Bayes Blueberry: the foliage became ugly & dull.

Too much calcium tense up and contract muscle in humans, which explains why leaves tense up .. and pucker up instead of flat & relaxed like normal leaves. OLDER leaves crinkled & curled up is typical of magnesium deficiency. YOUNGER leaves crinkled & curled up with yellow blotches is boron deficiency. Both are induced by too much calcium.

Too much calcium also drives down potassium, resulting in less blooms & faded color. Calcium can be from gypsum (calcium sulfate), or lime (calcium carbonate), or hydrated lime (calcium hydroxide) which is added by municipals to treat tap-water .. this form of calcium shoots up the pH of tap water, causing magnesium and boron deficiency.

Too much calcium drives down potassium, thus roses become stingy with tap-water high in hydrated lime. Too much calcium also cause balling of blooms: petals bunch-up, rather than relax and open-up.

Below is a picture of boron deficiency, manifested as crinkled & curl-up YOUNGEST leaves, too much calcium induces boron deficiency."

God bless you Straw....you are a gem. So....... I don't have to go to a chemical store to buy MgO2. I can buy it from a pharmacy I guess but they are selling it in the form of capsules mostly and that is expensive to as it comes with a brand name. But I will get it today because day after tomorrow morning I will be leaving Islamabad for 22 days. So I must do it before I leave.

BTW, also need to keep some Monopotassium Phosphate in my stock. Just in case I see a potassium deficiency in any rose (which I don't expect anytime soon).

Thanks a ton Straw.

Such great information!!

This is fantastic info thank so much....(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) :-)

and at last I think I understand....

Straw, you wrote:

But I don't like molasses in rainy weather, it attracted rose slugs big time. That stuff is more expensive than cracked corn ..

What about if I add the alfalfa with cracked corn and molasses to my compost (along with layers of leaves, old veggies, etc etc ) instead, in thin layers - with soil in between?

(expensive but there is no other alfalfa available over here where I stay & surrounds - a 50 kg bag = R350-R400)

Jess, How's the price for cracked corn in South Africa?

I'll have to find out about that , but I have a bag of organic corn meal, maybe I can use that now, a tablespoon each?