Just to remind readers, the OP is in the St Louis area.

You're about 60 days early on fertilizer. You might end up with super growth requiring multiple mowings per week. I realize you'll take anything at this point, but it has more than one down side. You'll also have to fertilize again in 60 days. Had you waited 60 days, the grass would have grown almost as fast anyway and you would have saved the cost of this previous app.

Has the lawn had any deep watering this season? Deep means an inch roughly all at one time. Like an inch of rain - not 1/7" of irrigation every day for a week. That's the best thing you can do for it right now. Think back to the last heavy rain and count 30 days forward. Water again about an inch on or about that day. Temps should be warming. After that you can likely water again in 3 weeks. Water a full inch every time you water...from now on. Here's your motivational picture showing the difference between deep and infrequent watering and shallow, frequent watering.

Well, I guess the bright side is at least I didn't hurt anything by fertilizing too early.

Thanks for the watering tip. Last year I tried to make sure I put down 1/2" at a time. I will adjust this year accordingly.

Last week we had 2 consecutive days where it rained ~1/2" each day. Is that close enough?

Here is the back for comparison. Not amazing, but much better than the front! The drastic difference between the two yards is what led to my initial inquiry last year.

I used tall Fescue when I reseeded last fall, is there any point in laying it in bare spots in the front at this point? I am going to send in a Logan Labs soil test this week.

Personally, I would reach out to the University of Missouri in your area and get a complete soil test. I don't want to cause debate on whether this is necessary, but it's best to know exactly your soil's issue rather than trial and error. Otherwise, you are going to be potentially fighting the wrong fight each year.

http://www.brightsidestl.org/1060/grow-a-little-greener-bring-your-soil-samples-to-brightside-st-louis-for-testing/

The only lawn test debate is over which test lab is better: Logan Labs in Ohio or UMASS at UMASS. All the rest, including state university labs pale in comparison. The test lab at Texas A&M finally admitted (several years ago) that they had been doing their tests incorrectly for decades. The Logan Labs and UMASS tests are much more complete, much more reliable, and much more repeatable than university or other lab tests. Since they run a full battery of tests every time, they can cut the cost of the testing well below what a university would charge for the same tests. So the $25 test at Logan Labs would cost upwards of $65 to get at another lab.

I was already burned once by a lab that provided bogus results I will just stick with LL. I also indicated that I want them to provide recommendations as well. In some areas I was only able to get samples about 3" deep (I included that information with the samples) because I hit rock several times and couldn't get any deeper.

You can get a soil test and start tweaking, but at this point that's akin to adjusting the carburetor when you have a blown head gasket.

Personally, I would nuke the whole thing with Roundup in late summer. Mow it all as low as you can, get a thatch rake and pull all the thatch off. Now you got a nice seed bed with good seed to soil contact. Select quality seed (not found at any big box store) and apply starter fertilizer at seeding time. Cover with the thatch you just pulled off. Once you get a decent stand of grass, protect it with pre-emergent, both late fall for winter weeds and early spring for summer weeds. Prodiamine works well and can give you 6 months of protection. Spot spray post-emergent on whatever breaks through. Repeat every year, there are hundreds of thousands of seeds in the soil waiting to germinate. Weeds will always out-compete your grass because they are better adapted to the local and seasonal conditions, so unless you get control over weeds you stand no chance. Add proper watering and proper fertilization and you will have a great lawn. But get weeds under control, otherwise you'll be watering and fertilizing them.

I thought I was doing the right thing last year by waiting until Sept, laying new soil and reseeding, but got the same results as before.

So from now until Sept is a lost cause?

If that is the case I may just resod the front rather than have a dirt patch and weeds for another year.

Well, you did do the right thing by waiting until September and reseeding, but you didn't follow up with the correct weed control practices.You didn't say what your fertilization program was in the fall. Once that new grass is established (60 days) you can put down prodiamine for the winter and again at the end of February. Much better to put down pre-emergent too early than too late. Those dandelions need a shot of post-emergent as soon as you see them.

You should make a blanket application of broadleaf herbicide and see what's left once the weeds are dead and make a decision. Tall fescue does not spread so if a spot is empty it's going to be empty. Whether you sod or wait to seed, you will need proper fertilization, proper watering and constant weed control for your grass to succeed.

This is why I am frustrated/confused. I laid the new soil/seed in Sept with starter fertilizer. In Nov I put down Fertrell 5-3-4, and in late March/early April put down preemergent. I thought that was all on schedule proper feeding/weed prevention.

That makes sense. My fault for not seeing the rest of your post under the backyard pic where you mentioned Logan Labs. My point was that you have something really different in your soil going on compared to your neighbor, causing serious operator error. I didn't know there was that much an issue with local extensions. I used Michigan State University for mine.

With new grass you plenty of nitrogen to help it develop before winter. You need 1 pound of nitrogen per ksf at seeding time in the form of starter fertilizer, another pound 30 days later in October, and another pound as winterizer when it stops growing. With your 5-3-4 a pound of nitrogen means 20 lbs of fertilizer per ksf, so I would recommend something much higher in nitrogen like Lesco 28-0-12. Purchase quality seed, it makes a huge difference - check your local NTEP tests to see which cultivars performed best in your area. If you can apply Tenacity at seeding time that would be ideal. 60 days after seeding apply prodiamine at 4 month rate. Watch for weeds through the winter and spot spray with post-emergent. Apply prodiamine again March 1st at the 5 month rate and spray for weeds. Fertilize again in spring per your local extension recommendations and continue spot spraying weeds through the summer, if any. Practice proper watering - deep and infrequent. You should then have a nice thick lawn.

OP,

It would appear you are employing "best practices". TTTF does not spread or repair. Thin and dead spots need to be overseeded every Fall for an attractive thick lawn. It is what it is for TTTF lawns. You've already applied a pre-m, so it would be a waste of seed to overseed now. In the meantime, follow the best practices (watering, mowing and fertilization schedule for fescue) and use Weed B Gone CCO to spot spray the weeds. Nearly any new lawn will take a couple of years for full establishment.

As you have been advised (strongly and often): You need to retest. (loganlabs.com and also pay for recommendation service) Your previous test is either very inaccurate or, if not, reflects some values that could be causing issues in your attempt to establish your lawn.

Did you ever do the vinegar test per previous post suggestion?

Thanks j4c11. I will follow those steps this year.

yardtractor, as stated I sent off a sample to logan labs and requested their recommendations. Still waiting on results.

Sorry. I missed that you had sent it. I hope you'll post it when you get it. I'd like to see how it stacks up against the prior one. I know the weather isn't the best, but it would be interesting if a chunk of soil sizzles in vinegar. Make sure you take the lid of the jar after shaking just to be safe.

Talked to LL yesterday. I should have results and recommendations on Tues. In the meantime I decided to kill some time by doing the vinegar test. A lot of fizzing.

Rocks 3" below the surface will not help your cause, no matter how good the soil is. Sources differ on the acceptable minimum soil depth, but I think 4" is the lowest I've seen. Your soil may be great, but the subsoil may be the limiting factor if it's hindering root development or causing uneven water absorption.

A lot of fizzing a a sure indicator of CaCO3. Are you sure someone isn't putting lime on your lawn when you aren't looking? lol. Your PH isn't so high that there would be dramatic turf problems. It's close , but you should be able to raise a decent turf. I'm looking forward to hearing about the recommendations from LL. Thanks for the update.

I just received the report from LL:

I also received the recommendations (all are pounds per 1,000 sqft):

Elemental Sulfur 90%: 6#

Phosphorous 11-52-0: 8#

Potassium Sulfate 0-0-50: 10#

K-Mag (Sul-po-Mag): 6#

Zinc Sulfate 36%: 1.0#

Copper Sulfate 25% Cu: .03#

Total Applications over 6# should be split over a 40-60 day period

Rock phosphate, limes and gypsum can be applied in one application. Sulfur can, if incorporated. Try to incorporate all applications.

Adjust N based on color and growth. On Turf, core aerate prior to fertilizer application. Trace elements might be better dissolved in water and sprayed on.

So I guess my questions from here are: When do I apply these amendments? How often (put everything down over the 40-60 day period?), and what does it mean to "try to incorporate all applications?"

I must say, I'm disappointed in the format of those recommendations. Although I've not received one, others have said how easy they were to work with and accessible and helpful the agronomists were by phone. "Incorporated" means tilled in. Ignore that, although applying after aeration can be useful--not necessary. Although I'm pretty sure I understand the schedule they are giving, I think you ought to re-post your last post and the test results in a new thread titled "Soil Test" and ask for morheouspa's input.

I apologize jravd3 for recommending that you re-post and ask for recommendations. As disappointed as I am with the format of the Logan Lab agronomist's recommendations, I'm far more disappointed with mopheouspa's input to your test. I would suggest you call Logan Labs and ask to talk to the agronomist to answer your questions or concerns.

jravd3, has anything changed with your grass in the past 10 days? Is it tall enough to mow yet? Is it up to the highest setting on the mower? Have you applied an herbicide?

I'm thinking you're just impatient (i.e. normal) with a lawn that's slow to awaken. In the past 10 days my lawn is beginning to wake up. I mowed it 2 weeks ago and did not feel the need to mow it again this week. I mowed the weeds but went around the grass. Today I'm seeing it shooting up in some places.

When you put new soil down in the fall, did the soil have any wood chips / wood mulch?

Thanks yard I will call the agronomist.

I put down weed out with q and added a sticking agent.

Closeup:

I mowed the other day mainly because I had to mow the grass in the back, but the front I mainly just cut the weeds. The grass was so short in the front that nothing really got cut.

For comparison here is my neighbor's lawn:

What is your neighbor's watering schedule?

How high/low does he/she mow?

Did your neighbor use a winterizer last November?

I missed one of the questions above, no there was no mulch in the soil I bought last year.

Watering schedule right now is whenever it rains it gets watered. Same as mine. We have had a lot of rain the last few weeks.

I don't know if they used a winterizer or not.

I am not sure about this particular neighbor, but many of my other neighbors use the same "lawn guy" who comes and sprays stuff on their lawns every few weeks. The crazy thing to me is the people that use him water their lawns for a 10 minutes and then move the sprinkler to another spot until the entire lawn is covered. They sometimes do this during the hottest part of the day and usually every day. Essentially they do the complete opposite of everything I've read/seen recommended (water 1/2" at a time to get 1" coverage a week), but their lawns always turn out better than mine!

Your problems do not stem from watering. I don't water at all because I don't have an irrigation system, and still have a decent lawn just on what mother nature provides. Your problem stems from poor seed selection, improper establishment, improper fertilization and improper weed control. Fix those issues and then you can worry about how often to water.

It's possible the "lawn guy" is spraying iron and/or foliar nitrogen every few weeks to enhance the green. But you have to have grass before that will work

Agreed. I was more or less curious what he could be spraying.

I talked to the agronomist today. I described the situation and he recommended the following: find a way to get all of the products blended together instead of putting them down separately over each other. For the back, he recommended core aeration, adding the fertilizer, and backfilling the cores to get the amendments deeper into the soil.

For the front he suggested retilling, laying the fertilizer, reseeding (with quality seed) and covering 50/50 straw/soil. Keep it watered and it should come up pretty well after 3 weeks. At that point he said don't do any weed control until the lawn has been mowed 3-4x. Then in the fall put down some high Nitrogen fertilizer and Trimec.

Thoughts on this vs Morpheous' recommendations?

Jeeez... It must be a real hit or miss with the agronomists there. This one must look at everything from the point of view of a farmer. With the exception of the aerating, go with the recommendations you got from morpheouspa. His are more in tune from a home owner's perspective.

I'd rather avoid another flame war, but I'd add the application of elemental sulfur incorporated through aeration. Divide the 6# over two-three years (each Spring and Fall) and apply it separately from the other amendments by at least 2 weeks. By any chance did you ask them about any concerns in surface application of the sulfur?

The application of boron per morpheouspa is your choice.

I'm not sure why yardtractor didn't like morph's suggestions. Morph has been doing this for years and generally is in agreement with other lawn soil experts.

This agronomist, on the other hand, must be a farm type soil guy. If you do what he suggested you'll hate yourself for years to come. The key mistake he makes is to recommend tilling. Professional landscapers don't own a tiller. They use a tractor and box blade if they need to put a new profile on the land. Everything is done right at the surface or top inch. They don't dig down and spin blades through it simply to fluff it up. Secondly putting fertilizer on freshly tilled soil is a waste of fertilizer. There's no roots yet. Thirdly seeding in the spring, and increasingly late into the spring, is going to give you worse and worse results the longer you delay. Fourthly, I don't get the aeration thing. Aerate, fertilize, and backfill the holes??? WTF? Why put fertilizer below the roots? Why back fill the holes? Back fill the holes with what? If you bring in more soil that's the same a adding more soil to a perfectly good soil profile.

I think if you water it deeply one time (unless you've had deep rain), that the grass is going to take care of itself if it hasn't already.

It sounds like my $30 was well spent with LL.

So I went to a local store that a friend recommended to get quality products. They handle a lot of the local golf courses and do soil tests through LL. I wasn't trying to get a 3rd recommendation, but he gave his input anyway. He said based on the 22.89 CEC that I have clay soil.... (here we go again). I asked if the excess calcium could be throwing that number off and he said no. I asked him if the elemental sulfur does anything if applied to the surface and he said yes but don't put it down until December because otherwise it will damage the grass. Applying it to Dec when the grass is dormant will work to lower pH.

His recommendation:

Now: 12-18-22 SOP 1/2 bag

May 15: 24-4-12 1/2 bag

Sept 1: 12-18-22 1/2 bag

Oct 15: 12-18-22 1/2 bag

Nov 20: 24-4-12 1/2 bag

Dec 1: Sulfur 0-0-0-90 5lb bag

I asked him about weed control and he said don't do anything until late March early April.

So now I have 3 recommendations, all conflicting, and no idea where to go from here. I thought I was confused before...

So now I have 3 recommendations, all conflicting, and no idea where to go from here. I thought I was confused before...

Not really. On the major nutrients they are very similar.

Try to keep in mind a couple of turf basics.

1. Generally, 90% of the path to a healthy lawn is proper 1. watering, 2. mowing, and 3. fertilization... and a distant 4. PH.

Proper fertilization means supplying the turf with macro and micro nutrients. The macro nutrients Nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium are 99% of the fertilizer equation. The micros, copper, boron, zinc, etc. are what is left and are almost never so deficient as to cause a problem. Keep your eye on the macros and don't sweat the micros.

A very acceptable lawn can be had with a soil PH anywhere from the high 5s to low 8s. For turf grasses a PH between 6 and 7 is ideal. Slightly acidic soils make all nutrients more readily available as well as help inhibit many diseases. Too high a PH and there are nutrient deficiencies. Too low and soil biology is damaged. The further from the ideal that the soil PH is, the more likely that the turf will exhibit signs of poor color, health and disease.

So to your concerns:

All three recommendations addressed the macro nutrients of phosphorous (P) and potassium (K). (The important ones)

Logan Labs recommended:

Totals:

6.38#K per thousand sq ft

4.16#P per thousand sq ft

Morpheuspa recommended:

Total:

5#K per thousand sq ft

3#P per thousand sq ft

Fertilizer Guy recommended:

Totals:

31#P*

45#K*

* as he evidently recommended the amount for your whole lawn, you will need to divide by the number of thousand sq ft you gave him for the size of your lawn. I'm guessing around 8-9 thousand sq ft. ( e.g. 45/9= 5#K per thousand sq ft)

The differences:

Logan Labs and Morpheuspa addressed some micro nutrients. As I said above, none of them are depleted in your soil and, in my opinion, addressing those are not going to make an observable difference for you or any significant affect on your turf. Nowhere as big of an impact as getting your PH into the ideal range below 7 will. Amending them wont hurt, so it's up to you.

The Logan Labs agronomist punched the numbers into the formula for the ideal amounts of nutrients and gave you the raw results as total amount for each amendment. The numbers are a little scewed for incorporation.

Morpheouspa has a tendency to play it safe. "Better to cut a little long than too short, you can always cut more. You can't uncut." A good practice to follow.

Fertilizer Guy may be following the "cut long" philosophy with the sulfur application, otherwise, he was converting the Logan Lab recommendations into the products he stocks.

Hope that helps you.

Thanks for the clarifications.

The lawn was measured at 5ksqft. which is what the guy at the store used for his recommendation.

I guess the differences I was focusing on were:

-whether or not to aerate (LL is the only one that suggested this)

-when to apply weed control (LL and people here say fall, the store said not to do it in the fall only in the spring which didn't exactly workout for me this year...)

-whether or not surface applied sulfur will do anything (LL says that is why to aerate to get it deeper, and then cover the holes), morpheoususa says it doesn't do anything, and the third guy said it will work but only in the winter.

But you're right 90% of the improvements will come from the big picture macro nutrients, proper watering, and mowing.

On aeration, as you say, LL recommended it primarily for the purpose of incorporating the amendments (S in particular) into the soil. EDIT: I see no reason to fill in the holes. Aeration can provide other benefits. Unless one is using a cam style aerator set at 90 degrees (unlikely as they are $20k machines employed by golf courses), the common core aerator not only makes holes, its action also fractures the soil which aids in water and air penetration and rooting.

Until you develop a thick healthy turf that blocks and out-competes weeds, it's a continuous battle. Most weeds die off and seed in Fall, so attacking them through Spring and Summer is going to pay better benefits; preventing them from going to seed (reducing the next crop) and killing them (allowing spreading turfs like KBG to fill in the vacant space the weed leaves).

On sulfur, its effect on changing PH (it's a micro-biology dependent process) and application (incorporation and surface application), rather than try to give a Reader's Digest version, here are some links that I hope may help you gain some base of knowledge:

here

here

here

here

Caveat: Although some of the non-turf specific articles discuss it, I strongly advise against using Aluminum sulfate as a source for turf grasses.

I encourage you to do a google search for additional reading.

P.S. Edit: For those who have in-ground systems with an amendment tank. I do not recommend the use of sulfuric acid!!!

My bad, I calculated the Fertilizer guy's recommendations at full bag rate rather than the half bag rate he recommended;

New Totals:

3.1#P per thousand sq ft

4.5#K per thousand sq ft

Using sulfur when it's cold and everything's dormant might have a positive effect. My soil is pulverized white limestone. That's standard around central Texas. Still there develops a micro rhizosphere pH difference that allows iron uptake. Regardless of events of the past, every spring iron becomes available and the grass is dark green. What changes that is when we get several days of heavy rain. Then we get a chlorosis effect that cannot be fixed with iron supplements. It can happen in mid to late spring or in the fall. The effect is the same (patchy yellowing) and the solution is the same (wait until next April). My take on this is the heavy rain washes out the acidity from the soil leaving nothing but high pH. When the pH is high iron binds tightly with the calcium making it unavailable to plants. If you have a similar situation where the pH can recover over the winter, applying sulfur in the winter may appear to be helping, but really is not. With this in mind I would watch the grass to see what happens after heavy rains and what happens next April.

There is one product we use down here to alleviate this issue. We use greensand (glauconite). Greensand is a complex mineral made of lots of elements and is mined from formerly deep sea deposits. If you apply greensand at 40 pounds per 1,000 square feet you can restore a dark green lawn.

The soil left by the builder is the major determinant of how easy it will be to grow a good lawn.

I suspect you are trying to grow a good lawn on subsoil. That ain't going to happen. I suspect you backyard is native soil.