Kim Rupert is the official specialist on this subject, but the best I can remember there IS no difference, them being the same rose, at least in American commerce. Some think there may be a different rose in Europe, but according to Kim, there isn't. For the finer details you can read Kim's report here at HMF

Thanks Fig_Insanity, I think I would be Mud-insanity if i had to go back and try to make sense of the Dubreuil thread again. I'm sure it made perfect sense to them.

the notes at HMF are much simplified and clearer than the thread here, lol. No need to fear for your sanity ;)

Ugh, get over it already and just plant Will Rogers. Same disease susceptibility as Barcelona or Francis Dubrieul but with better flowers that don't nod. At least the name is prounceable.

I think they planted Will Rogers decades ago but I'll take another look.

Wow, pics on HMF look kind of like Munstead wood. I really like the idea of it being short.

There's a possibility that the rose going around as 'Francis Dubreuil' in Australia is NOT 'Barcelona' -- but is still NOT 'Francis Dubreuil'. There are/were quite a few wimpy-stinky dark-red HTs from the early 20th Century, so it's possible another one of them was mistakenly identified as FD in Australia.

I'm not aware of Burling's roses sold under these names. My guess would be that she listed them under both names to cover both bases for someone looking for the rose under either name. Other nurseries list it as one or the other, but still sell the same rose. I think the same thing occurs with 'Louis XIV' and 'Nigrette' -- same rose, two different names. And in that case, I also think the correct identity is the HT.

:-)

~Christopher

Thanks Roseseek for giving me the history, how wonderful you got to be part of it.

Forum threads about favorite red rose, and favorite fragrance come up from time to time . When someone names Francis Dubreuil, I don't mind if it really is him or Barcelona. I am 60 now and the roses I seek are my bucket list roses. Have no desire to parachute jump, but I hope to see with my own eyes and smell some of the forum's recommended best loved roses .

You're welcome, Mudpie. It's been fun being lucky enough to have been at some of the right places, at the right times. No matter what it's called, you will enjoy it. I had sought Barcelona specifically, because the contemporary rose literature stated it was THE dark red, highly scented HT that didn't burn easily in the sun. It doesn't burn as easily, but dark pigments do absorb more heat and it can and will burn in heat. I think its smaller, thicker petals help it to last a bit longer than many others. Enjoy!

I have Nigrette and Francis Dubreuil (in commerce). I had both of the budded onto Fortuniana. Didn't improve vigor much at all but Nigrette blooms continuously and I prefer it to Francis, although he is pretty also...I only get two flushes from him.

Susan

Over the last week I have been looking up all Burlings roses on HMF. Nigette was so appealing. One comment said intensely fragrant. An extremely dark red would be so pretty next to Madame Hardy. I wish there was more information about Paul Barden's Rook, not much info to be found anywhere. It may come down to trying to get whatever is left in stock ; after reading the thread about " self control working? " the nurseries may be picked clean.

Mudpie may I suggest a climber? You can prune her as a large shrub. Canes are pretty lax. Rhode Island Red, aka Kocher Red. Gorgeous deep crimson cupped AND fragrant blooms. Repeating, healthy and hardy too. Don't know why she isn't better known. Pretty sure Rose Petals nursery has her in stock now.

Susan

Regarding Rhode Island Red - Long Ago Roses has it also. It's my plan "B" if Crepuscule fails.

Cheers!

Rhode Island Red and Crepuscule would make a gorgeous combination! Just sayin....RiR is a better bloomer for me.

Susan

Fields of the Woods ? someone on the forum talked about it last year, I didn't recognize it by the rooster name, I am really glad you reminded me. The shape is what seems unusual and outstanding to me, although hardiness has become most important over looks in this climate. Snow on the hillls and still below freezing lastnight. I was happy to read Rhode Island Red is tough as a rooster too.

Just yesterday I was reading about Crepescule again. Can't remember if it was zone five or six, every year i'm drawn to it before making the final cut. The well established Alchemist that has been a healthy workhorse noses out the competition in that color range. If I move, or stay here and open up a new full sun flower bed along the South side of the house I'll get to exterior decorate some more. Thanks for the ideas.

You are welcome MP. I really like this rose. I'm liking all the Brownell roses I've grown. Since hardiness is a concern you might check out the Brownell "Sub Zero" line. She is a stunner and great bloomer!

I think Crepuscule is zone 6 and above. Linda (from Long Ago Roses) and I had a long email discussion about it, since I'm in Brooklyn, NY and zones seem to vary between 6 and 7.

Susan that rose is really gorgeous!

Thanks Swamp Rose! I really like it. One of my best.

Susan

FWIW, Kitty Belendez (a noted SoCal rose exhibitor) once told me that "Francis Dubreuil"/"Barcelona" was a strong-growing lusty bush when budded on Fortuniana.

A decade ago the nursery I order from carried so many old garden roses it was a hidden goldmine. No one I met even knew it was there.

Seems I did stumble across Francis Dubreuil ,i didn't know many names back then, and passed up the chance to get many vintage gems I now have to wait for .

The new disease resistant varieties have taken over for the most part. I could request a budded FD/Barcelona and see if they want to offer it again.

Some days i really want the David Austins and new Kordes, but there is something about the old roses that always draw me in , and I suppose the rarity of them makes me love them best.

Ahhhh . . . Mudpie -- you warm my heart!