Thanks
so much rebunky! It takes time to go and take measurements of your own
space to share with me so your reply is much appreciated! :)

This is a great start and I'll keep adjusting things as others chime in. Some clarifications about questions 6&7:

6)
Let's see if I can explain this better with a photo. Do I need to allow
for any kind of spacing where the red arrow is pointing? When I look at
photos of other full overlay, frameless cabinets, I see varied spacing:
Some look flush against the bottom of the counter, others have a small
gap like in this photo, and others have what looks to be a 1/2" gap.

7)
I won't be paneling the DW but seeing your info about the fridge box...
perhaps I should pull out the installation manuals for both appliances
to see if there are any manufacturer specs for that! :)

1. You don't really use filler to stop the door from hitting the wall. You get a 90 degree hinge (which cannot open past 85 degrees or 90 degrees or whatever it is) to stop the door from the hitting the wall. You do still use filler (typically 2" ish), but its purpose is more to allow room for the cabinet door knob and your hand on the knob when you open the door to 90 degrees.

2. Whatever the manufacturer says is usually fine. You could read reviews of people who installed it and see if it all went fine according to directions. Just follow the sink's spec sheet, and you'll be fine usually.

3. Work this out with your cabinet maker because it really depends how he's building this stuff. Create a list of interior dimensions you'd like, and he'll tell you how wide the overall cabinet would be if the interior drawer/cabinet dimensions were that size. The two of you can then adjust as needed to fit the overall kitchen space.

4. Choose your fridge (actually, choose all your appliances) before the cabinets get made and follow the appliances' spec sheets to the letter in terms of how much space to leave for each.

5. I believe standard is 3" or 4" (don't quote me), but ours varied by a couple inches because our floors aren't level.

6. I don't know. IKEA (Akurum, at the time) just had it designed so our drawers wouldn't hit the counters if the counters were sitting on the cabinets.

7. Dishwasher are usually quite standard, but again, choose your dishwasher and follow its spec sheet directions to the letter about how much space to leave.

8. Yes! Also, insist you see and choose the slabs yourself and be present for templating.

Another non-expert here.

1. I have 1 1/2" which enough to open my doors without having my hardware hit the wall.

2. 36" will be enough.

3. I got all of the calculations from my cabinet maker, so I knew how to calculate all the dimensions, but for the most part I only used the heights as the depths were going to be the same as what I had and the widths weren't very flexible for me. I ended up with a number of 4 drawer stacks because I don't like stacking things - what I want to use invariably is on the bottom!.

4. I think Rebunky did a good job of answering this one. I would also add that you should make sure you have enough height to allow for a replacement fridge in the future. We built our kitchen to accommodate our fridge at the time, and when we had to replace it, we found that our opening wasn't tall enough.

5. I don't know if there is a standard. We have 4 1/2 for most of the kitchen, but we also have shorter kicks on our island so we could incorporate a deep sink plus under sink trash.

6. Not sure about this one. Sorry.

7. The specs for your dishwasher will tell you what you need. Typically a North American DW needs 24" and a European DW (Miele, for example) requires 23 5/8.

8. I think that's a good idea. My longest stretch of countertop is my island, and I designed it so that it would not need a seam.

Consider having your cabinet maker incorporate the toe kick into the bottom drawers, if he has the skills. Why give up all that space? An alternate is a separate toe kick drawer under the bottom drawer. By careful planning, I built my 4 drawer stacks to have interior drawer heights of 4-1/2, 7, 7, and 11". Everything we own fits in a drawer except the KitchenAid mixer, which is too heavy to lift anyhow. Other things I incorporated include a cookie sheep pull-out disguised as drawers, and a rolling bin to use dead space on the back side of our peninsula.

1. I have 1" which allows the door to open enough to slide out the interior drawers in my pantry. (mine are frameless also)

2) A 36" base will be enough but it will be a tight fit; strongly consider using a sink harness at installation (like this one: http://www.braxton-bragg.com/index.cfm/m/1/fuseaction/store7catalog.level/bc/8580,9096/)

3. Decide what you will store in your drawers and how (flat or on end?). Measure your items. (If you are planning to get a large wok or something, remember to account for that too). My two deepest are 9.5" for my pots, pans, baking dishes and lids -- not quite deep enough (another 1/2" would be plenty) to store my largest pan lid straight up on end, but it sits in the holder at an angle so it works. My large utensil drawer is 7"; that is deep enough that I could put a sliding drawer or organizer inside as well. My other drawers are 6" which seems just right for dishcloths, wraps, plastic storage containers etc.

6. I have 1/4" between the bottom of the counter and the top of the drawer face. The cabinet frame itself extends from the bottom of the counter to below and behind the top of the drawer face.

Thank you so much everyone for taking the time to answer each question and to share the dimensions from your own kitchens! I also love the very creative and novel suggestions like:

• Selecting 90 degree door hinges for those end of run doors (thanks Jillius!)
• Making sure I build a large enough fridge cab to accommodate a replacement fridge (thanks sherri1058!)
• The nifty storage ideas (thanks mushcreek!)
• The sink harness (thanks raee_gw!)

This is the part of kitchen planning that I'm finding very mind boggling. Your replies are very helpful for making things a little more clear. It is also clear to me that I have to have a detailed conversation with my cabinet maker to get lots of the answers to my questions. I'm glad to have a better understanding beforehand, though, so I know what they're talking about and what to ask them.

Measuring for drawers is a pain.

This is my process - hope it helps.

1). Measure all my items' heights and how I want to store them. i.e. Pans on its sides.

2) this determines the minimum inside depths I need.

3) read the specs for the slides I plan to use. This tells me all the allowances (space lost). For example, with one set of Blum slides I looked at, I will need an additional 1 11/16" plus any additional top clearance I want plus the interior depth. This total is the drawer height space that I need.

I am using different slides for my two of my cabinets. At the end of the project, I will have slides from four different companies to get the storage efficiency I want.

4). Factor in what the cabinet maker will do on the drawer clearance. They all do different things. (Styles, stretcher, etc).

5) write down all your notes and measurements in details for all sides. Write down your REASONING for each drawer size choice. You will forget and this will save you lots of time and stress as you try to figure out what you were thinking at the time.

6) measure and remeasure and make someone else check your measurements again.

7). Expect mistakes in measuring as your head will be overwhelmed. Just recheck after a few days off.

Good luck.

beachem, thank you for saying that measuring drawers is a pain! It sure is! And I haven't even really begun! AHH!

Reading the steps in your process is really helpful. It's becoming less and less daunting, the more I learn. But you're now opening a new can of worms for me - using different slides for different areas?? What?? I didn't even think that was an option I should consider! What are you doing to me? ;)

The cabinet maker I'm using does not usually build for individuals. They usually build for builders. I'm realizing that they aren't set up to answer detailed questions from me. They do high quality work for an amazing price so I definitely want to go with them. But, how do I work around this?

I don't know if I will be able to get the specific dimensions about the drawer depths, slides, etc. that I need to draw up detailed specifications for all of my drawers. Should I give them the minimum dimensions I need for certain drawers and my ideal layout then work with them from there?

When I was planning my kitchen, I asked my cabinet maker to provide me with the calculation to determine drawer and pullout sizes/clearances. You will have to know whether you are doing frameless or framed inset. My cabinet maker then provided me with the calculation for determining drawer size (ie top drawer = drawer face minus x, middle drawer(s) = face - y, etc.) He also told me how much width I would lose based on the slides that he uses. From that, I was able to determine the sizes that I wanted/needed. Keep in mind that the more exact that you get, the less wasted space you will have but also, the less flexibility you will have for future storage items that you may not have considered.

Mrs. K I used elimination process to help me along.

Find out what limitations on specs does your cabinet maker have. For example, if they only put cabinets on legs then you will not have toe kick drawers.

They may only use Salice slides which will limit you to 21" slides max. Do they charge a lot extra for Blum heavy duty. etc.

One pro here said that Blum heavy duty slides would raise a cab price by thousands. The truth is that the Blum heavy duty slides cost a few dollars more than the regular when you buy it yourself.

Get the details on their drawer and biz build.

All the things that you can't do based on their capabilities will reduce your options and the decisions you have to make.

My custom cab company is a millworks so they are making exactly what I need for each cab. I'm using industrial slides that I buy personally so they're doing drawers to my exact specs with 1/4 bottom reveal etc... to maximize my interior depths.

Keep in mind I also use IKEA cabs and drawers.

Ms K: I approached it from a couple of different fronts, then cobbled all the gathered bits of information together (glass of wine and a quiet room helped!).

I first contacted the manufacturer, and the rep was kind enough to send me these diagrams of their typical 2-, 3- and 4-drawer units:

This told me that if I went with a 2-drawer, regardless of how I configured them, the total vertical space (that the openings occupied) needed to add up to 25.5"h -- so, I could had a 13 and a 12.5; a 10 and a 15.5, etc. Same drill for the 3-drawer: all vertical drawer-space measurements needed to equal 24 -- so you could have 8+8+8, or 5+8.5+10.5! If you can get these sorts of specs, they'll help you on the backend as you start customizing your sizes and double checking your #s. So, if you know you're dead set on a 6" top drawer, for example, on a 3-drawer stack, you'll know you have to divide the remaining 18" between the other two drawers. Trust me, it can get down to the 1/2"s!

If your cabinet maker doesn't have these figures handy, does your cabinet maker have a showroom where you can go in and take measurements yourself? Or can you see a typical, representative sample? You'll want to pull the drawers out, measure the drawer opening's height and width; then put the drawer back in and measure the usable height and width. Do this with a few different sized drawers, and you should be able to detect a pattern/formula (per sherri's comment above). Much depends on how much you trust the company to take down the right measurements.

Final step was to bite the bulllet, take measurements (and weights!) of everything, and plot it all on a spreadsheet (or paper, whatever). To Beachem's #5: you should see all the notes I have, talking to myself...sometimes even scolding myself! :)

Good luck! In the end, you'll see it was all time well spent.

sherri: I'll see if my cabinet maker can provide me with some kind of formula. I'll copy down what yours gave you and show it to them to see if they have something similar. Good point about how being more exact may mean less flexibility for storing future items. Hmm... I'll have to decide how customized and exact I get...

beachem: Thanks for sharing how you went about it with your cabinet maker. Sounds like you understand cabinet design down to a science! Wow it is hurting my brain and raising my anxiety level to consider all the possibilities of customizing my cabinets!

javiwa: I'll show your diagrams to my cabinet maker too - thanks so much! Having those visuals should help me to have the conversation about what dimensions I need. They do have a small showroom that I can get measurements from - fantastic suggestion to measure several different sized ones to figure out the pattern/formula. Whoa... I should take weights of everything too? That makes total sense but my brain is exploding now from all the variables! I think I'll soon be the one talking to and scolding myself!

Thank you SO MUCH everyone for taking the time to help me out. While it's left me feeling more anxious than before I asked the questions, I know it will all sink in and not be so scary. ;)

I think you only need to worry about weighing the pots/pans and dishes if you plan to store them in drawers.

My dishes were heavier than I thought. Some of my pots/pans are cast iron and those puppies weight a lot. I automatically assume that I needed 500lbs rating for the pots/pans drawers. I chose to do the same with the dish drawer after weighing them. I just didn't want to deal with broken slides issues.

The Blum's heavy duty is only rated to 110 LBS.

Do your pots and pans weigh 100 lbs?

Your cabinet maker should already know how he is going to build your cabinets. He should be able to provide you with shop drawings of what he plans to do (probably for a fee)--Unless you are going to build them yourself? Different cabinet makers will use their own formulas for the measurements you are asking for. Spacing measurements of the cabinets themselves are not standard.

Sink: Whether your sink will fit into the cabinet depends on the specs of the sink as was mentioned and the type of sink you plan to use. Remember that undermount sinks will need to be installed with sink clips underneath. Make sure there is enough room on either side on the inside of the cabinet for the clips. If you have a fireclay sink, remember that their measurements are nominal measurements and may not be exact. It's good to leave some room on either side to scribe and fit them into the space. If you are using a drop in, you should be fine. Always look at the specs for the sink you are using.

Toe kicks: I always built my toe kicks 4". That leaves room for a toe heater if the client wanted one and maximized the space of the cabinets.

Dishwashers: Are built a little less than 24" but the measurements they give you is 24", meaning it will fit into a 24" space. --Same with refrigerators. A 36" refrigerator is not 36" but is a little less so it will fit into a 36" space with breathing room. But as was stated, always check the specs because manufacturers do vary slightly.

I wish I had cut down the sides and backs of my deep drawers.

I had to have my 36" dish drawer glides changed to the Heavy Duty glides because my soft close stopped working due to excessive weight. When you are figuring out the weight, you also have to include the weight of the drawer. I didn't have the drawer full & was over 100 lbs. I believe the recommendation is HD (heavy duty) glides for drawers over 30 that will hold heavy items - dishes, casserole dishes, cast iron pot & pans, etc.

Blum came out with new glides a couple of years ago. Here are the weight limits:

Blum 563 - 90 lb dynamic(open) /100 lbs static (closed)

Blum 569 HD -135 lbs dynamic/150 lbs static

Here's a very long thread with lots of useful info about drawers.

Everything I wanted to know about drawers

@mrsK I'm using the Hettich heavy duty industrial slides. The Blum 569 wasn't enough for me.

For example, one stack of dinner plate was 30 lbs. Yikes!!! The weight of the drawer, weight of the slides and 4 stacks of dishes exceed the rating. That's not counting the plywood dish divider.

I could use the Blum if I go for shallow drawers but then will lose an additional 1 3/4" of storage per drawer.

My pots drawers are 48" and I plan to store things vertically so the weight of 10-12 pans (some cast iron) makes a difference. If your drawers are less wide, you won't have an issue with Blum because you will have less inside.

eagledzines: I haven't quite gotten to the step of weighing my items yet. Almost there! Thanks for the tips on spacing the toe kicks and DW. About the sink cabinet: I suspected 36" would be quite tight as that's the minimum suggested size from the manufacturer. The sink itself is 35" and a bit so I did worry it made for a very tight fit and difficult installation. I'll rejig it and give it more room.

nightowl: I will add that to my notes! That makes a lot of sense - it must be a pain to pull things out of drawers with high sides and backs.

romy718: Ahh... right, the drawer weighs quite a bit too! Glad you mentioned that. I would NOT have thought to add that on. And, yes, of course, the dividers will add some weight too. Thanks for sharing that thread - I will consult it this weekend as I begin measuring my drawers.

beachem: Thanks again for giving me detailed, specific info. It really helps me to understand how things fit together and the different options I have. Adding your info to my notes too... lots and lots to think about this weekend!

Re cutting down sides and backs. The big value is the added space for handles to hang over the sides and back into those wasted spaces.

Great point nightowl. Another day on GW that I have learned something new.

I designed and built my own cabinets, and I guess ignorance is bliss. Since I went frameless, there's very little waste space. Just 1/2" on each side of the drawer for the slides. There are no framing members on top or in between, either, so one drawer is only about 1/2" below the one above it. With no framing members over the drawers, there's nothing for things to catch on when they shift in the drawer. I HATE that! With the drawer extended down to include the toe kick, I have interior depths of 4-1/4, 7, 7, and 11 inches in each 4 drawer stack. I basically copied the way metal tool boxes are made.

beachem, wow! I can imagine that a 48" drawer filled with heavy pots and pans would weigh a lot!

I'm curious since you said you use IKEA cabs and drawers. How do you do that, I thought their drawers only went up to 36"?

@fabulatrice. I ordered 8 custom cabinets for my specific needs. A 48" range cab, a 102" double oven cab to support 700 lbs of ovens, dish cab, a short baking cab to go under pull out table, and 5 upper inset cabinets (custom sizes- 44"). The kitchen is 25 cabs plus 4 more in family room.

I used IKEA for the rest. Hmm maybe I'll use IKEA for the baking cab. 31" is not that much different from 30". It's changed from the original 33". I would lose 4" of depth for storage. More cogitation needed before Monday.

Thanks for asking the question.

The cost difference with IKEA is huge. My 12" pantry cost $200 total vs $2300 for the same thing via the RTA route. That didn't even include the costs of the slides yet.

That is a big cost difference! We haven't really considered anything but IKEA because it seems good enough, I like the functionality, and I'm fine with the aesthetics of the interior of the cabinets/drawers, even though it's a bit plasticky. In comparison to the fully enclosed wood drawers that we have in our current old kitchen, the low sides of the IKEA drawers make the stuff more accessible, and the white interior makes it easier to see things.