I am not sure that I like the short cabinet with the glass door next to the counter height cabinet with the glass door.

Thanks palimpsest for your input. I see what you mean; it lacks symmetry. Do you think it would look better with a solid door? I have also considered running the cabinets up to the ceiling with a short display of glass in the last foot of height. Our ceilings are 8 foot.

Carol

I would consider running them up all the way then, as solid doors. That will lengthen the uppers and give some height to the room, but another set of doors all across, besides being really pricey will be another horizontal cutting across the space.

I would have only the counter height cabinet glass and match the shorter to the others of its height.

Good idea! So if I have understood you correctly, I will increase the height of all cabinets, including the glass counter height hutch. All uppers will go to the 8 foot ceilings with just crown above. Nothing goes above the windows correct? The only glass is on the counter height cabinet, the rest of the doors are all solid.

Carol

If I was going to do glass maybe mock-up what it would look like to do solid doors where you now have the glass in the shorter cabinets and then do glass in the narrower cabinets on either side of the sink window. It might stretch out the vision of the window a little. Just a thought.

Then what you wind up with from the sink outwards both ways is, narrow glass cabinets, painted cabinets (the other set over the fridge) and then glass cabinets/window. Does that make sense.

My prep work triangle is very similar to yours and I like it. The fridge is almost right behind the stove with 60" of aisle and I like the idea of just a step and turn and then step and turn back. I do a lot of stir-fry and am always in the fridge getting out and putting back in vegies. I then prep to the left of the range with a prep sink in the same spot as yours and trash underneath . It's very tidy and compact.

What you wind up with as I did is two work triangles - one on either side of the range. It works very well for kids and guests.

Yes blfenton, I like your idea for glass and cabinets too -- like a pattern (glass, solid, glass solid etc). Can you tell I teach kindergarten LOL? I will get DH to mock up your idea on Corel Draw as well as pal's idea and post later in the week.

So glad to hear you have used a kitchen with a similar prep work triangle and that it works. We were going for a two cook kitchen as DH helps cook and we are working on training the 3 DS and 1 DD to cook too.

Thanks for adding your comments blfenton.

Carol

Have you considered sliding the peninsula down to make it an island and attach it to the little 1/4 round piece?

I'm thinking this way you could have more than one person using the prep sink as well. Although you have to walk around more to get to the sink and refridgerator. Seems like you would get lots more space that could be used for multiple cooks.

Thanks lyfia for your comments. Yes, we have tried having one big island, and also two proper islands (lots of versions were explored). This layout seems to have advantages over those ideas. One thing I did not want was to have one person at the clean-up sink and another across bum to bum prepping. I also like the break in between the peninsula and small island for passage. The way we have it, I figure one cook can use the clean-up sink for prep, and the other the prep sink.

Do you see any minor changes you would suggest?

Carol

This post was edited by OntarioMom on Mon, May 20, 13 at 17:22

Do I see that you have 2 dishwashers? Can I ask why you chose not to put one on each side of the sink? Seems like loading would be easier with both close to sink. And it doesn't seem like it would get in the way of the cooktop.

Hi controlfreakecs,

Thanks for contributing your thoughts. It is true that putting them on either side might facilitate loading especially if dishes need to be rinsed. We went back and forth with the dishwashers on either side of the clean-up sink versus having them together. The reason we have them together is to avoid any possible congestion between someone doing prep while another is loading and unloading the dishwasher. It is not uncommon for that to happen. I start prepping the meal after work, and when DH arrives home, he empties the dishwasher and re-loads. Having the dishwashers side by side also allowed them both to be close to the glass counter height dish cabinet - perfect for unloading. Our goal, that we learned from this forum, was to keep the clean-up zone as far as possible away from the prep zone, cooking zone, etc. I was not sure I liked both DWs together aesthetically which is why one will be paneled to blend in with lower cabinets and the other we already own and will be non paneled.

Thanks controlfreakecs!

Carol

Well, I can't help but think you are wrong in this one. Looking at your plan, your primary prep space will be between the small sink and the cook top (over the warming drawer). That is a good 30" down from the space between the sink and fridge where the other DW would go, so not really in each other's way.

I would also think that you would get into the habit of primarily putting dishes in one (the one closest to the hutch) and pots/pan, mixing bowls, baking sheets, etc. in the other - and those will likely be put away closer to the prep and cooking space. Plus, you would then use the most efficient cycle for the items loaded into the different washers.

It's your kitchen, obviously, but the DW's on top of each other looks incredibly inefficient to me.

You make some good points controlfreakecs. It is certainly worthy of some more thought! From what I understand, those who have two DWs tend to put dishes in whatever machine is empty at the time and not so much separate prep pans etc from dishes/tableware.

Anyone with two dishwashers want to chime in on this one?

Carol

We have 2 DW and fill one up 1st and then go to the other. We do this mainly because DS and DD each have their "own" DW and they would then have the same amount of emptying the DW (cuts down on fights) We wash most of our pots by hand so it's normally just dishes, glasses, silverware and some bowls in the DW. I would though put the DW on each side of the sink. You even say this is your clean up sink. As noted by controlfreak, your prep will be on the island between the sink and range top. I do LOVE having 2 DW.

Thanks bostonpam for your help. Glad you are enjoying 2 DWs. Given my dish and cutlery storage is down near the end of the run in the glass counter height cabinet, will it not be a pain to empty the far DW if we put one of them to the right of the sink? We also thought to have dish drawers on the small island across from DWs. We had planned to locate a wet garbage in the small island for scraping leftovers before loading in the DW. Again we thought having the two DWs side by side would put them both closest to this garbage. We did not want to put a garbage under the clean-up sink as it is bothersome to ask the pot washer to move aside to allow scraping of plates for those loading the DW.

I will re-think the location of the DWs. I still see many pros for keeping them side by side, but you guys have convinced me to re-look at the merits of a DW on either side of the clean-up sink. So many decisions.

Anyone else have an opinion on the DW location relative to dish storage, garbage, prep zones, etc?

Carol

BTW, I see 3 good spots for prep (one spot to right of cooktop, one spot to left of cooktop and also the small island). If more than one cook is preparing food than more than one prep zone is needed. The clean-up sink can also be used to access water for the small island or a cook working to right of cooktop.

Carol

purchase one largest capacity dishwasher for left of sink position and a drawer dishwasher unit behind on one of the islands.Personally,I would prefer two 33 in cabinets instead of the 3 different cabinets left of window.To the right of window I'd probably do a cabinet without door and matching interior so "matching" door sizes is immaterial.

I'm not going to say more on the DW, I hope others chime in. You need to do what would work best for you.

I just wanted to add, because I hadn't taken notice before of trash placement, that it is REALLY nice to have trash in or near the prep zone. However, I have a garbage disposal, so there isn't a lot of plate scraping.... and any that is done is after the meal, not during prep. (Use of clean up area during prep is usually for the messy bowls, spoons, spatulas, etc.)

I'd probably want it to the right of the cooktop. That's pretty central to clean up area, prep area, and even your little "snack island."

Controlfreakecs you made me think again.
Hmmmm a garbage disposal is not something I have ever used, so I had no plans for one (maybe I am missing something?). I am guessing with a garbage disposal in the clean-up sink the DWs would be best on either side. However, can you put all food scraps in the garbage disposal or only certain kinds of scraps? Can anyone let me know the benefits of a garbage disposal and whether it would be better in the prep sink or clean-up sink?

Carol

Hi Herbflavor and thanks for your comments. I like your idea of moving one DW to one of the islands. I will play with that. I would prefer a second DW rather than drawers due to cost and iffy reviews on those DW drawers.

I agree with you and other posters that something needs to be done about the look of the upper cabinets on the clean-up sink wall. I am going to try to get DH to redo the elevation picture based on your suggestion and some of the other suggestions of posters above. I was unsure what you meant by: "To the right of window I'd probably do a cabinet without door and matching interior so "matching" door sizes is immaterial". Would you be so kind as to clarify this idea for me?

Thanks,

Carol

looks as tho you are trying to match the cabinet doors flanking sink window on left and right...about 15 inches?....so you have the two 15 inch cabs and two 24 inch cabs[of the display type because of glass shelves and doors]....I wouldn't find that collection of cabs as useful as the one 15 in cab without a door to the right of window.....and the longer run on the left of window comprised of two larger basic cabs without all the glass. this is a main storage area....two 33 in cabs is better than a 24, 24 and 15. At minimum,do away with all the glass if you want those sizes-you have plenty of stuff going on with the islands so trying to push a glass fronted cabinet area on the wall is redundant as far as visual appeal...your center of focus is heavily right down the middle of your space-the walls should be your work horse storage with day today function and not worrying about the tidiness and looks behind the glass[and cleaning fingerprints as well].....and I'd keep the counter free of a cabinet resting on it..maybe 12 or 14 in backsplash height if you want a little taller cabinet on the end..

Thank you herbflavor for your helpful comments and clarification. I will test out on paper your suggestions to see what works. I appreciate your comments.

Carol

Thanks to your feedback, here is another elevation picture of the side wall reflecting some of your suggestions. I did play around with a few of the other possibilities suggested above, but have not drawn them out as I am leaning towards this version. I got rid of the cabinet that rests on the counter and the glass uppers. There is still the narrow cabinet to the right of the sink beside the fridge. Rather than have that narrow cabinet change to open shelves, I have left it for now as a closed cabinet as I assumed it would be handy. Is this a mistake aesthetically?

Still wondering about the two dishwashers. If one moves to the right of the sink I really see it as a bit of chore to empty the dishwasher given all the potential dish storage is at the far left end of the run very near where I show the two dishwashers. I have yet to play with the idea of putting one DW behind the window run by placing it in the small island.

Any more opinions? I would love to hear a few more tweaks and comments. Thanks for all the help so far.

Carol

From the far left I would place one dishwasher/then 3 drawer stack then dishwasher then sink base and on....I can see a unit at the end being very handy with dining and seating at that end of room-people will learn to load their stuff right in. And for unloading, easier to recruit a helper positioned at the end for this task, and not jam up the area around sink and fridge. Unloading 2 dishwashers is where i would want help.Island position should still be considered as well.

Herbflavor,

Excellent thought. I am so glad you came back and commented again!! You obviously have an excellent design eye. Do you think I should fuss more with that narrow cabinet? Do you want to see it with an open shelf to judge? Do you see anymore tweaks needed? I forgot to add that I bumped up the height of all the cabinets to the ceiling. Do you think I should do any bridges over the windows?

I really appreciate your help!

Carol

I think the wall looks pretty good-the 15 in cabinet is fine..but you are right up to the window trim...have you scrutinzed that? I might have opted to clear the right hand window trim a few inches so the fridge and ovens weren't right at the trim...that concerns me a bit. the left side window is okay. Could you do anything different around the right window?...are the windows existing now? if they are to be installed can a smaller window be ordered for the right one and leave some drywall before the fridge and ovens lay in......they aren't identical window sizes anyway.

I have my uppers with up lifting doors, and I find them very convenient when unloading the DW. So, highly recommend you to consider them for the cabs above the DWs. However, I don't know how they would be matched with the other upper cabs on the same wall (gurus might suggest something). My ceiling height is 8' 4", and I'm 5' 9" and decided I'm not tall enough to have the cabs above the fridge as up lifting, but (with counter height 39") you are probably much taller than me and can have all yours as up lifting.

@ Herbflavor: You are right again -- thanks ever so much for your continued help! The right window does look squished. Currently the window on the left has been installed. The window on the right is on site, but not installed. It is an expensive 3 pane fiberglass window so we do want to use it. We have a few options to fix the squishy situation

a)We can move both windows and fridge to the left a few inches. There would be extra labour involved to re-install and fix the siding, but we do have a reasonably priced framer/siding installer. We have not yet installed the right window so it can go anywhere on that outside kitchen wall. The siding around this window to be installed needs fixing wherever it goes.

b)Or we can keep the left window where it is. Then we can move the fridge down a few inches and shrink the size of the cabinet to right of sink a few inches (currently the drawer stack cabinet to the right of sink cabinet has been planned to be 24 inches. This would allow us to change the planned location of the right window by moving it down one inch so there would be an inch on each side of the right window, but still kind of squishy. As it stands, the plan for the sink cabinet is to be 36 inches, but we have not chosen the sink (leaning towards a 30 inch Silgranit single). If we do choose a 30 inch single sink, do we have the inches to spare and still not feel the counter to right of sink is too small for dish/pot washing and/or drip drying?

Here is an outside view of that side of the house. You can see the current kitchen window which is just above the air conditioning condenser (condenser is actually not installed and will be shoved over closer to the corner near jut-out). This window was put in a nice location to avoid the jut out blocking light but to give us a view not interrupted by the side of the neighbour's house. I believe it could still move over a few inches and achieve the same results. The window we are planning to install on the right will give us light but a less good view. We really see that the kitchen is dark without the second window.

Can you let me know if you think solution a or b is better?

BTW, just in case you were wondering it is true that the right window is one inch shorter (right window is also narrower). However, we are going to cheat the jam extension of both windows by raising one 1/2 inch and lowering the other 1/2 inch so the window trim will be the same height top and bottom of both windows. Not perfect as the glass heights are off, but again we want to use the expensive window we have available. In any event the fridge is in between so not too common to be staring at both windows.

Carol

sena01,

Thanks for your comments. I had not thought about lift up cupboards so we can try those out in a kitchen show room to see how they feel. I had thought to include a dish drawer perhaps on the side of the small island across from the DWs to make unloading easier as well. I am 5"8" and DH is 5' 9". The reason for the counter at 39 inches is to increase the ergonomics of unloading the DW. By raising them 3 inches it helps the back (although raising them even more would be better). From what I have read, raising the sink as well by 3 inches is done on purpose all the time in Europe as it is seen as a comfortable sink height. The rest of the counters on the island where we will prep are standard 36 inch high.

Carol

One more question if you will be so kind. Now that I have changed the dish storage to uppers and not a dish cabinet on the counter, I worry that the height of the uppers might be a problem for maximizing storage. We want 39 counters on this run for ergonomic reasons for DWs, sink and the wall oven below counter (rest of counters used for prep on peninsula and island are at 36 inches). What is the standard distance between counter and uppers and can we reduce this standard distance by an few inches to make the uppers more easily reached? I am 5'8' and DH is 5' 9". TIA!

Carol

I am 5-8 and 15 in backsplashes are okay-18 is the norm. You are raising base heights because you are 5-8 and 5-9?? Usually the variance would be a baking center which is actually lowered because of arm extension to mix/knead/blend/etc. think about keeping the normal height and do a lower set up somewhere. More value......get kids and their friends involved in baking/prep at a location like that.

Herbflavor, thanks for your info on backsplash height. I think we will reduce them a few inches down to 16 for those two 33 wide upper cabinets over the DWs. I will double check to make sure there is no building code that prevents this.

The ONLY patch of counters that will be 39" are the clean-up run with the ovens (the outside wall). I really want those DW raised a bit and found cleaning at a slightly raised sink more comfortable. Not to mention it will be nice to have the oven placed under the counter slightly higher. I will not be prepping at all on the 39 inch run of counters (there is no room to prep on these counters). All the prep will be at a height of 36 inches which is the planned height of the peninsula and island. However, we did talk about the back of the peninsula being lowered for baking and to accommodate the two younger kids (youngest is 7). Our two teens are just shy of 6 feet and still growing and certainly will find the clean-up run nicer at the higher heights. The lowered back of the peninsula might be worth more examination.

Any chance you can give me an opinion on option a or b described in my long post of 11:40?

Thanks,

Carol

As per herbflavor's comments, DH redrew the plan to make the windows less squished. There is 21/2 inches around the left window and more like 4 inches on either side of the right window. We also changed the cupboard to the left of the fridge to an open shelf as suggested.

Any thoughts on this update? Any more issues that need tweaking.

Carol

I'm sorry, the narrative from11:40 occurred while there was an emergency next door[elderly person]......now I'm just chillin after a long walk because of events. Anyway-is this last sketch the culmination of your tweaks? those inches make a difference! Flanking windows with that number of appliances all in one area is foreign to me[mwave/ 2 ovens/ and fridge].....you've come to this plan ruthlessly so must trust this is the best for your family, but the extra spacing around window trim is much better.

I don't want to cloud your mind with DW'a anymore but this is how I have my raised DW.

It's about 23.5" above the floor. My sister's is 9" shorter than me and has her DW raised about 17.5 ", with one drawer below it, and hers is placed at a similar location as yours.

herbflavor,

I hope your neighbour is okay!

Yes this is our favourite of the two options listed at 11:40 (option a). It does require moving the existing window down 5 inches to the left which will add to the cost. However, I do like that everything is more spaced out so I am very glad you shared your comments about the space around the windows.

I could consider bumping the regular oven or the microwave to the peninsula or elsewhere. However, the best spot for the steam oven is where it is due to the fact it has to be installed high up. I can't however, place the regular oven under the steam oven as it would take up a bit too much width for that run. Should I fuss with the oven locations more or be content that all the hot food appliances are together?

Also, any thought on the open shelf vs the closed cupboard? If I keep it as an open shelf, what should I put on it?

Thanks again for all your help. You advice has been very useful.

sena01,

Wow I bet your DW and your sister's is comfortable to load and unload. Ours will only be raised 3 inches, so will just be a little more comfortable than if it was not raised at all. I had not thought that we could further raise the DW to a higher level than the nearby sink, but I see that you did successfully. Thanks for sharing.

Carol

re open shelves: top 2-things to gaze at-colorful pottery/teapot/or other family piece you simply like.The lower 3 shelves-basket with tea bags/9in bamboo turntable with some spice jars/small 5 or 7 in appetizer/bread/dessert plates to grab in a hurry[I use a lot of these]....etc.Don't know too much about steam ovens-is that one best left in that location? The microwave might be one to shift if you have space elsewhere: it's use will be from multiple people for doing variety of things at various times...Oven is usually the main cook's domain and very little congestion occurrs due to less demand. See what you can come up with for the mwave perhaps.My neighbor ended up in the hospital-not sure what the outcome will be....wait and see.Thanks for your expression.

Herbflavor,

So sorry to hear about the neighbour -- I will say a little prayer.

Thanks for the design tips for the open shelf -- good ideas there. From what I have been told the steam oven almost replaces the regular oven and will be the oven I use most often to prepare foods. The regular oven will still be used for baking (which I don't do that often) and larger roast (think turkey). So, I have debated moving that main oven to the back side of the peninsula near to where it shows zone F on the floor plan. Given I was planning on using the back side of the peninsula for baking prep and storage of baking materials it would make good sense to move it. The only drawback would be having that oven a little lower to the ground (3 inches lower). I can revisit the microwave oven location, although it does stack nicely with the steam oven.

One other thought was the prep sink. I wonder if I could get a long narrow one with access from both sides of the peninsula (might even need two faucets? It sure would be convenient and make both sides of the peninsula extra useful. If that is my baking station, being able to wash hands nearby would be a bonus.

So much to think about. I appreciate your help tremendously.

Carol