Great topic! I think most of us have pondered this question over the years. Generally, I'm with Jeri on this one (maybe influenced by similar coastal climate limits!). But, I also think that Malcolm has it right - it is more effective to actually compare results from using the same rose on its own roots vs grafted. So, I think I would combine the two perspectives here. Not only comparing the same rose, but also including how different local climates can determine which method is more appropriate. So, for me, I have been struggling with trying to encourage some of the hardier teas to thrive better in my PNW coastal garden, where our hot summer days are limited. I remember reading a comment from Paul Barden a while ago about how he would like to try Gloire de Dijon, as a grafted plant, to see if that would add more vigor. I second that particular desire! I think this ties in with what Jeri was also saying. Maybe I should try to get a grafted version of Lady Hillingdon and compare its progress to the plant I have (own roots), which has been slow ( to say the least!). Hmmm. It would certainly save room in our greenhouse if it worked! Happy new year, especially for all those Ox people! Ian

Each region of the country is a little different.. From wasted amounts of dollars in north east, I can tell you, that HTs, floribundas, grandiflorias, etc.. just do not hack it year after year.. Sure with deeply buried grafts and some winter covering, they will last longer, but after trying dozens of these varieties, I found one that did OK in my zone and that was Sunset Celebration, that would typically have around 6 inches of cane left, it did very well for 4-5 years and wasnt a complete blackspot disaster as well. Granted I havnt tried every variety, but where I had them was basically in front of the house at the time, I just wanted lower bushes becuase the windows were not high there. No worries there as they never got above 4-5 feet max in any giving year. I tried alot of the popular ones, ala Oklohoma, Mr Lincoln, Double Delight, Sunset Celebration, Christinan Dior, I cant really remember all of them now, Oh I know I had a Queen Elizabeth in there as well. I tried alot more including stuff like Victorian Spice. But I couldnt picture not buying repeat flowering varieties at the time.. I pictured dozens of blooms throughout the season. I spend hundreds of dollars on these.. none of them lasted more than 4-5 years really. Then I discovered gardenweb, I also relized that my garden season is pretty short, mid june to late august. A OGR rose that blooms for 4-6 weeks can be a third of my season. Alot of these also are highly fragrant, BS resistand and hardy. I basically order 4-5 hardies now and a couple of moderns a year or remonont ones that I try to keep alive. Even though I had very good success with Austins in my zone 5a (close to 4b garden) , they hated my move to my new house, I lost alot of these for some reason.. even though I didnt lose a one of my OGR's the austins after transplant just shrivled and died on me, except for the hardiest varieties, they all appears to have survived in thier pots covered over winter, but I guess they just didnt like it. Bucks did nothing for me, I tried over a dozen of these that died as well.. The one caveat is I didnt try some of the hardiest ones like applejack or quiteness, basically becuase I had two dozen austins at the time , alot were already pink or pink blends and I didnt see room on adding these. I tried all of the blends that looked nice to my eye, and they all died, winter sunset, prarie sunrise, harvest, honeysweet... etc.. none of them made it here. Its up to you, but to me, plant where you live, if your willing to take the losses, plant what you like. But there are hundreds of different roses that are hardier than HT's that have great form and fragrance, including OGR's and some modern shrubs. Silverkelt

No, you didn't repeat, this was exactly what I was looking for, thank you! Should the rootless cuttings be placed on top of gritty mix or have the stem submerged? With the Topsy Turvy, this is what I did with it: 1. Depotted, knocked off old soil from roots, repotted in gritty mix. 2. Let sit for a day or two in shade, watered, and put by a window. 3. Biggest leaves started shriveling up. 4. Was afraid it was rotting due to old soil/too much water, so depotted and inspected. Everything looked fine, so I washed the old soil off roots, dried with a paper towel, let them rest for a few hours, then repotted. 5. Put back out by window, but haven't watered since. Biggest leaves continued shriveling. So maybe it needs water? I'd initially stopped because I thought it had too much (though it was only watered once). Still, it's only been a week or two without water and it started shriveling early on. Here are some pics of some plantlets with leaves and roots - the ones on the left: The ones on the right are cuttings that have just the beginnings of small roots. Here are some smaller ones, including a Topsy Turvy (no roots on that one yet): These have not been watered at all yet. I'm afraid to because everything's at different stages - some things have roots, some don't. Here is the pot I replanted. The Senecio seems to be flailing a little bit, the leaves started curling towards the light immediately and are now starting to look a tad wrinkled. The top was damaged in the repotting process. :( Half of these plants are cuttings, half have roots. This pot hasn't been watered yet since repotting (been almost a week). I LOVE the Sedum dasyphyllum. All of the little heads perked right up the day after they were repotted. I hope lots more grows!

When I was browsing Heirlooms site, my impression was they were very anti-graft, but I also sorta concluded because they were primarily selling own root , there was some slight bias. Upon stumbling across the videos trying to see how shrubs look when grown, my initial concerns about own root were very clear when looking at how the ~many canes~ vs the grafted/budded/formed cane framework. "can be worth a try, but you might want to see if you could get an own-root and a grafted plant of the same variety to try them together and see if there really is a difference where you are. Good luck with whatever you decide" That sounds like a 3-4 year test minimum like most shrubs. Settle in on the 1st year, and then by year 3, they really take off. I've got a boxwood hedge that I chose knowing it grows 1-2" per year. It's like watching paint dry each year. At this point in my life, I'm all about the instant gratification, albit gardening is teaching me patience. When buying certain shrubs, I'm buying the largest G I am willing to pay for the size. My order is in with DA already and most of them are grafted. I might take some cuttings down the road to observe my own-root curiosity, but many have said the grafted will take off faster, and quite frankly, as much as I think I like the framework more of own-root, I'd rather have growth.