I like it! That looks like quite a grand area and that you hope to entertain often. I would want a 48" frig/freezer. Those drawers are pricey...

Wow, thank you nightowl! I am torn on the refrigeration so that is excellent feedback!

Rebunky, I'm so excited to see that someone else did this. Nice knowing I'm not completely crazy after all :) I'll go read her posts because I imagine I'll get some good tips. What a pretty kitchen. Thanks a lot for that link

Does anyone have an opinion of the espresso maker, grinder, and filtered water spigot can fit comfortably in the 36 inch opening of the bar.

Or will I feel cramped and should put that set up in the 'back kitchen'. If an actual sink isn't needed, I could just have the spigot there with one of those mini drains.

We have a 50" counter with a 17" sink (inside width), and I've found it to be the perfect place for the coffee maker. I just stood in front of the 36" section, which ends at one side of the sink, for comparison, and I think that space would still be sufficient for our coffee maker, cream, sugar, and spoon containers, and a small sink. If you don't want a sink, you might consider a tray drain, just to empty and rinse the pot.

You've obviously put a lot of thought into the kitchen, and how you want to use it, but having ovens around the corner from the cooktop would bug me. I'd want them in the cooking area, where I wouldn't have to run around the corner every time the timer goes off, to check the cookies. I'd want them close enough to take advantage of the hood, for those times when something runs over or burns. I also move some things from the stove top to the oven, to broil, or to keep warm, so I'd put the ovens where you have the full-height cabs, and keep most of the food items in the back kitchen, except for spices and oils that you need frequently.

I love the separate clean-up area, and the proximity to the outdoor cooking area. I think you will have an amazing kitchen!

Mama Goose.

Thanks for your input about the ovens. This setup is driving one of my friends crazy because she thinks I'll hate it too. Part of my problem is I'm a novice cook, so I've never moved something from the cooktop to the oven or vice versa. I never knew the benefit of having them near a hood. I wonder if the ovens could go behind cabinets. I've seen that at cabinet stores, but I have no idea if it meats code.

Tray drain!!!! Thanks for the terminology and for measuring out your counter for me!

Love
the huge island—I use every inch of my big one.
I’m not a big fan of multiple fridge drawers (maybe just one for
beverages or snacks/fruit) because I don’t like tracking down what’s in which
fridge—I prefer a one-stop-shop approach to unloading groceries from the store
and retrieving them when needed. I'd personally prefer a section of 48 or 60” wide columns (steal the broom
closet and place the freezer or additional fridge side by side with the current fridge).

There's a ton of walking involved with this layout, but it sounds like you're going into it with your eyes wide open and you have those great full-height cabinets so you can shift things/dishes around over time if you find life is easier using one kitchen as your primary. That said, I’m with mamagoose and would want at least
one oven in the main kitchen area (perhaps do a full range) so that I could
take quick glances to check the doneness of my baked goods. If you really don’t bake much, I’d only invest
in one Gag steam oven (which are fab) and get a big capacity 30” convection for the other one. I’d also reconsider 3 DW’s (2 in the back and
one up front, right?)—if you do a lot of entertaining, you may find you’d enjoy a great pellet icemaker (like a Scottsman) more than the 2nd
DW in back…or replace it with an awesome knee-activated pullout trash/recycling
bin (Blum’s servo drive for automatic trash doors ROCK!). Either way it'll be a great space for catering and entertaining!

Many recipes call for dredging a roast, then browning it in a skillet, before putting it in the oven. Since purchasing an oven with convection, I've become lazy, though--I usually crank up the temp and turn the oven fan on for a few minutes, to brown the roast without using the stove top. I like to start an omelet on a burner, then once it's set on the bottom, pop it under the broiler (second rack down) until it's puffy and golden and yummy, then cover in shredded cheese, and back under the broiler to finish. I always use a skillet to caramelize onions and carrots for pot pie, and start the stock and bechamel on the stovetop, too.

I make a lot of cookies, and usually end up checking
them frequently in the last few minutes of baking time--if you plan to
have your all of baking paraphernalia in the back kitchen, and plan to
stay there for the duration, then I suppose that would work. So, it depends on how you cook, and bake. I tend to cook in large batches, and use the stovetop and oven and the same time--I'd be afraid that just when the sauce needed stirring, the oven timer would be going off, and the tart shells would be starting to burn.

I use the oven on 450+ for pizza, puff pastries, browning meats, etc., and for some reason it almost always sets off the smoke detector, which is across the room. Even though it happens often, I'm always startled, and my young grandson drops everything (as he's been taught) and heads for the door! If I can remember to keep the hood on the lowest setting, then turn it up before opening the oven door, we have fewer alarms. There are occasions when something cooks over in the oven, and turning the hood on full blast is helpful in clearing the smoke, but my oven vent is just above the cooktop.

My MW is in a cabinet box with a door, but I think you're correct that a regular oven behind a cabinet door would not pass a safety inspection. Beachem, who is still working on her kitchen, ran into that issue. Discussion on ovens behind cabinet doors.

Lots of walking here - but I get the separation. I think you are short on refrigeration (and perhaps freezer too) and I know this makes it look like my kitchen - but why not add some fridge / freezer columns to each side of the cooktop instead of full height cabinets so they an be near a landing area. The fridge off by its lonesome will make loading and unloading it (grocery putting away, prep needs collection) more difficult with a lot of back and forth.

Also if the fridge / freezer columns fixed you with enough storage - the 36" area by itself could become coffee bar....

this will be an amazing kitchen. Am I missing something? Do you have a full size oven anywhere?

i adore my Combi, but I would still want a full size oven rather than two combi ovens.

HI!!! I wasn't around yesterday but wanted to get back to you asap because your advice has been inspiring. I'm already thinking about changing a few things as a result. I'll answer more questions later, but wanted to run my new thoughts on refrigeration by you.

Fridge

Perhaps, we put a 30 inch fridge on each side of the cooktop. My husband and I can each have the stuff we use most on our 'sides', so there won't be too much back and forth. That will give us a drop zone for the fridge and will put most of the things we use most often in the prep zone. It will eliminate the need for a drinks fridge in the coffee bar area because this will be close enough and we won't need to worry about using the fridge space with drinks because we'll have plenty of cold storage. It also eliminates the potential need for a produce drawer in the island.

Freezer.

If that is more refrigeration than we need, we could consider doing two 30 inch fridges with freezers on the bottom. Or, we could put a column freezer in the back kitchen. Then all I'd need back there is one fridge drawer for cat food. If we have a big column freezer, I won't need an extra freezer drawer for cat food because we don't freeze too much other stuff.

Dry goods storage

I can make the side area, where the fridge was, all dry good storage. I could always put the freezer column over there with a small dry goods closet and then put the other dry goods in the back if anyone thinks that might be better. Most of our food goes in the fridge. Splitting them up would only really be if it would be useful to have a full height cab in the back that can have either food or other kinds of storage.

For instance, having the freezer column in the back would take away the storage for some of the small appliances or a cabinet for the microwave. I was planning to have a pocketing door and some things on pull out shelfs with outlets, so I wouldn't need to take them out to use them. I'd miss that but I wouldn't need to use those things very often, so maybe not a big loss. I could just leave more stuff out on the counter in the back. Or I guess I can store them in the new side pantry and just not use them there.

The only thing I give up in this is having the flexibility to store different things in the full height cabinets in the front, but maybe this is a better trade off. What do you think?

Sorry that was a ramble-fest, but I was anxious to share these new ideas. I'll talk more about ovens later today or tomorrow morning.

What does espresso mean to you? Are we talking Jura/Miele/etc. or http://coffeegeek.com/?

I'm in the latter camp. That means plumbed in water supply and drain. (We don't have either at work but have a Linea Mini and it's a PITA.)

36" is tight for that range espresso machine + grinder plus knockbox (to get rid of espresso pucks.) Mine is around 33" and it fits but it's very tight. That's without a separate water spigot (I'm right next to the sink.) If you make coffee drinks, you also need milk and have a frothing pitcher you want to rinse out.

The whole setup also tends to be messy when using an external grinder.

Aptosca, thank you!!! Let me tell you more incase you happen to have more input because I really don't know too much about coffee yet, and based on your Linea Mini, I'd say you do!

I drink lattes, so it sounds like I won't have enough room in there. My big decision would then be if I make that cabinet bigger (which means sacrificing some looks in the great room because the architect has that opening lined up with beams and it matches the fridge cabinet etc) or if I move it to the counter in the 'back kitchen' area, behind the cooktop.

Originally the architect assumed I'd put a built in Miele in that cabinet. I've heard the espresso is not as good as a fully manual machine, but because I make huge lattes, I assume the quality of the espresso may not be quite as important because its so diluted. My challenge is that almond milk is hard to froth, so I was thinking the control of a steamer on a manual machine might be my only hope. I don't really know? I would choose a machine that is plumbed, even if it's manual. If a super automatic would work, then it could easily fit in that cabinet.

So, if I get the manual set up, is it messy enough that I'd want it on the back counter even if I could make that cabinet bigger? Is a sink across from it good enough or would you want a sink next to it?

The plus of having in the back from what I can tell is:

we would have plenty of room to work.

it's near the big cleanup sink

you don't have to worry about the mess, if it is messy

the bar area could have other things in that space instead of the whole counter being dedicated to coffee.

The negative

I'll want a purified water spigot in the bar area, so maybe this means I would need to add another one in the back. Although, I will have the combi steam ovens back there, so there is already going to be plumbing.

It seems nice to be out with guests if I'm making them a coffee instead of disappearing to the back.

this would take up some of that counter in the back that could be used for other things

I will be sitting in the chairs across from the bar to have my morning coffee

If I make the cabinet bigger, I'll have less counter space to set up food/beverages for entertaining.

Ovens!

To answer a couple of you about my ovens.... because my husband and I want to cook at the same time, the thought around the two combis were so we could finally cook at the same time (because I'm a vegetarian and don't want chicken splatters on my tofu :) We could certainly use a combi and regular oven for this, but because I hear they do left overs like nobodies business, I think we'll both want to use it at the same time quite often. The Gaggenau combi now has a broiler, so unless I wanted to make something huge, I assume I really don't have use for a big oven. I've been told I can make a lasagna in the combi or a roast a whole chicken. I never make a turkey, but if we did, we could use the pizza oven. Does that make sense?

The combi can even do a small turkey. It is an incredible oven. You will not regret it. Mine is 11 yrs old and I'm still in love with it.

my son is a vegetarian so I can certainly understand your rationale. It's your house. Do what works for you.

my one piece of advice is that if you are getting two combis vs a combi and a traditional oven is that you do the 30" rather than the 24". The cavity of the oven is the same size but if the oven ever needed to be replaced with a traditional oven (due to resale or whatever) your cabinet will be big enough to house a traditional oven.

You could do just one side in the 30" but I would want the symmetry.

I drink lattes and the espresso quality still matters to me (maybe I'm picky ... heck, I'm on GW, so ...)

I had a full-auto, and a good one at that, but I won't buy one again. It's not as serviceable and I ended up unhappy with the results, both of the steam power and the espresso. If I didn't get a grinder/manual, I'd just stick with drip (which wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, I just really like my coffee so that's where I choose to spend my money.)

Fair warning: my home setup (~10 years old) is around 3K$ now. The work setup, which I would probably buy now if I were buying new, is around 6K$. That's partially due to wanting a dual boiler system: the water used for frothing needs to be boiling but that's too hot for the coffee.

You can get something reasonable at around 2K$, I think. I highly recommend Chris' Coffee.

This is our setup at work:

Size-wise, that's 36" from the left of the towel basket to the right of the grinder (not including the extra towel/portafilter.) So if you have drawers or shelves to store towels, you get back around six inches.

It also shows a typical amount of messiness (hi res image here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11615635/IMG_1338.JPG). Everyone has their own amount of tolerance for messiness. We don't clean up all the grounds during the day but do at night. Even then, it tends to not get as clean in the back. You also have to be careful when knocking out pucks or you get splatter.

If you don't need anything else there, 36" would seem doable. There won't be a lot more room. But then, because it's a bit wet/messy, you wouldn't want to put much else there, anyway.

> My challenge is that almond milk is hard to froth

Yeah. As is non-fat milk. I gotta admit, the Linea does a much better job than my well-loved S1 Vivaldi II (though the Vivaldi's not awful.) But the Linea also costs a bit more than twice as much. La Marzocco is pretty much the gold standard for espresso, commercial or "pro-sumer". It's also easier to get serviced since everybody that services espresso machines services LM. Not so much for the less known brands. At this range, these appliances are meant to be servicable, not discarded at first failure.

> I would choose a machine that is plumbed, even if it's manual.

Maybe you were including this, but if you don't have a sink near by, I'd also get the drain plumbed in. That way you can rinse the portafilter without worrying about filling up the drip tray.

I wouldn't pour milk in the drip tray, though, so you need a sink to rinse it. I generally don't bother rinsing the frothing pitcher between drinks (since I make them pretty often.) Some people would be more fastidious than that. If you are like that, you're going to have to make a trip to the sink for every drink anyway, so you might want to factor that in.

In my remodel, I'm putting the coffee bar next to the fridge, opposite the sink:

The water supply to the espresso machine should be filtered and possibly softened. Chris' Coffee has a kit that I use. You need to have space for the filters and they have to be changed once a year (at least as often I use it.) I still have to talk to my GC about how he'll plumb the water to see where the filters go.

I Love Red,

Thanks for the confirmation about the combis! Your advice about the 30 inch is good. I had wondered about that, but my thought was I could keep those 24 inch because of the location, and for resale, someone would want an oven near the cooktop (like a normal person!) and put an oven under the cooktop and that oven could be bigger. Does that sound like a good plan?

Aptosca,

Thanks for all those details and the photos. I now see having it on the open counter next to the bar isn't an option. I also see it would be pretty tight in the 36 inch area, but if I can make it work, it seems better than using the back counter because I wont have shelves in the back. In the bar area, I could easily have a few shelves for all the small stuff, including cups storage, but I'd still need room on the counter for the grinder and espresso maker and a place to rest my milk and cups while I'm working. I really want my filtered spigot for water there, too. And then, of course I wonder if a could make a small sink work for cleaning out the pitcher as you suggested. This isn't looking good!

Ok, now I'm wondering about other things. I'll have a fridge drawer there, so the milk will be convenient. I imagine storing cups on an upper shelf. If I can fit a sink for cleaning the pitcher, that would be great (especially if my guests don't want almond milk!). Do you need trash close by or do you put the grounds in the drain? If you don't have a sink close by, do you make a drippy mess on the floor when transferring everything? If so, the back would be better.

What do you think? The back would be easiest/safest, but then I give up so much room on that work counter and have almost no purpose for the bar.

I didn't know it was an option, so thank you for the suggestion about the drain, even if there is no sink.

My friend has an Expobar. I see it has a double boiler (I didn't know why that was needed, and thanks to you, now I do!). Do you know of it? https://www.wholelattelove.com/products/expobar-brewtus-iv-package

You can also store cups on top of the machine: they're meant to be. It pre-warms the cups. I don't bother, though. Most of the machines are around 16" so with 18" cabs, you only get a couple of inches. Good enough for espresso cups but not much else.

Grounds go in a knockbox: the black container between the espresso machine and the grinder. It has a padded bar to knock against to get the puck to come out. You don't want to knock into a sink even if you have one there: grounds aren't good in the sink and you need something you can hit. The knockbox I have, both at home and work, is the Large Tubbi and I find it a really good size. Less splatter and it doesn't have to be emptied all that often. Advertised at holding 50 pucks but I probably don't go beyond 20. But that takes at least a few days.

I'd probably go with keeping it where you have it. You can probably get a water spigot in there. I, personally, wouldn't worry about the sink. If you need to steam almond and regular, get two pitchers. (But, then, letting it sit there for an hour rinses doesn't bother me ... YMMV)

I've heard of the Brewtus but don't know much about it. I'm really more of a faux coffee geek than a real coffee geek. You can find lots of reviews/discussion on http://www.coffeegeek.com. That said, the Brewtus has a vibration pump and I'm not crazy about those. The Alex Duetto 3.0 by Izzo and Vetrano 2B Evo by Quick Mill are similar class of machine and have rotary pumps.

I also like Mazzer or MACAP better than Baratza for grinder.

Personally, I'm more comfortable with Chris Coffee than Whole Latte Love.