We used UltraCraft in 2 kitchens and did not use the plywood boxes. Mine have been installed for 2 years and the other has not been in use yet still under construction. Kitchen designer told me they were perfectly fine so I trusted his opinion. Doors also are not all wood I think middle panel of doors and draws are MDF and no problems with climate. I live in Boston area and use heat and AC and no cracking with paint on the doors and draws. I really like Ultracraft and I liked the fact that its semi custom so was able to do different sizes and different depths that were not in 3 inch increments. I have a very small kitchen and wanted to utilize every inch.

I had the same explanation from a local custom cabinet shop when I was shopping for cabinets. Their frameless line was MDF and they said it was actually stronger than the plywood which is why they used it on the frameless line. I eventually went with Brookhaven (WoodMode) which is also MDF. I also have IKEA in my house and no problems at all.

Turbocharged or supercharged? Both will haul a$$ and people will argue all day long which is superior. My local cabinet guy told me the same thing - MDF is stronger and will hold up just fine. Some people simply hear MDF and go running, thinking the worst. Go with a trusted reliable source and you'll be fine.

When professionals don't have a strong consensus it sometimes means both choices are acceptable and you won't know until years later whether you made the right choice. If your kitchen floods while you are out of the house you'll probably need new cabinets whether they are MDF or plywood. I think other factors are more important within your desired price point (such as formaldehyde-free materials, drawer construction, glides, finish, availability of custom sizing if 3" increments would result in a lot of fill pieces).

Interesting, we didn't find anyone recommending MDF boxes - pretty much everyone recommended 3/4" hardwood ply except for one lower end place we went to. We are in a high cost of living area though, so this may just be what is expected around here not necessarily better. I always thought MDF didn't hold screws as well as ply, but again this may not be an issue at the weights needed in cabs. I've also seen MDF get really destroyed from a little bit of water whereas ply is more likely just to warp some (I guess they should be coated though, and obviously any major leak will be bad for both). It still makes me nervous though. We do have MDF center panels in our doors - this was a few thousand less at the place we bought from and they were quite insistent it was better in terms of warping, smoothness, etc.

The people you were talking with were telling you the truth. People used to insist that manual shift cars got better gas mileage than cars with automatic transmissions. As technology improved, the automatic transmissions began to out perform the manual shift. Manuals can still be fun to drive, but the market has shifted away from them. No pun intended:)

I've bought both plywood and MDF cabinets. It's MDF all the way now. If you are planning on painted cabinets, MDF. It's stable and doesn't crack.

My cabinet maker said he spent half his time trying to convince people to use an MDF box. He was thrilled when I walked in and said I wanted MDF from the start. You were getting good information.

When I was shopping for cabinets a few years ago, the consensus here was that good-quality MDF was superior for door panels since it would not be prone to warping. The issue is whether it is good quality MDF; I believe that there are different grades available. A name manufacturer likely uses the appropriate material.

I wish I knew more about what they mean by a "stable temperature environment" . My house is heated and A/C but whenever outdoor conditions allow, I have doors/windows open so humidity and temp can vary a fair amount -- I don't heat to over 64F and don't A/C below 80F.

Check out the thread below. Scroll down to Live_Wire_Oak's comment. He/she pretty much sums it up.

Cabinet construction - plywood box v. particle board

Sombreuil above just shows how badly people have been led down the garden path when it comes to ply vs. mdf. He/she is using terms such as "strength" and "hardwood", not understanding that these vague terms are utterly meaningless in the context - and yes, the web is full of this nonsense.

This has been discussed longer than I've been around here. (more than a decade)

First you are much more likely looking at furniture board-aka particle board than MDF. The vast majority of cabinets do NOT use MDF but an enormous number of KD's, salesman, even contractors will refer to it as MDF. (but depending on type of each they would be on practically equal footing with particle having an edge over most of what is actually used for MDF in cabinets-there are over 100 variations for each)

I currently only have one brand of frameless cabinets that offers Particle Board- they also offer ply and every other brand I have at the moment uses plywood sides. I went to great lengths to get that brand specifically for the particle board option.

What I tell my customer- once you are at the middle price point, top end at the box store (Kraftmaid, Shuler...) there is no point in paying for plywood except: on exposed ends if that is what it takes to get veneer, and sometimes for shelves greater than 30" wide that will be VERY heavily loaded. So I'm telling them that when they go shopping somewhere else they should be looking at a less expensive options than some of what I have. When I worked at a place that had more particle board options available I told people exactly the same thing.

I used to post the physical stats from the National Plywood Association for both- for all but bending under load, particle wins. Search back a few years if you want to see those.

My own kitchen is particle board frameless because that is what I wanted and fit my budget. If I were to spend more I would not burn $$ just to be able to say I have plywood.

There are far more important aspects to cabinets quality than "pepsi or coke" ply or furniture board. AND once you have settled on a price point there is more to picking who you work with than which brand-who provides it for you counts for more. As to the cabinets themselves- the most important aspect of a middle of the road or better brand is customer service and QC, finish is next, methods of construction and volume come in there (how rushed are the people on the glue line is my favorite thing to see when evaluating a brand- a really accurate indicator of how things will turn out in the long run).

Jakuvall

Hi,

I'm a historic preservation carpenter w/a BA in preservation + 35 years experience. Certainly I am opinionated, but not led down any garden path by fluff advertising or the next bright and shining object. All my woodworking lessons were learned by 35 years experience in the field.

Every time I get back into a nice hardwood project I feel relieved to leave the MDF in the (considerable, choking, formaldehyde-laced) dust.

Casey

"To make a tortured analogy, hardwood is steak, plywood is chicken nuggets, and MDF is baloney."

Push hardwood, plywood, and MDF through a shaper, then finish and paint. Let us know which looks better in a year.

Sombreuil - You might want to buy formaldehyde free mdf or particle board for your projects. I know that Ikea's boxes don't contain formaldehyde, but wouldn't know about other cabinet manufacturers.

I'm looking into Showplace cabinets: they offer "paint grade" or hardwood. Part of the trouble with this whole discussion is it is often very hard to get information on what cabinets are really made of. I really don't know, for example, what material is "paint grade" but the dealers I've consulted have insisted that it is not worth the money to upgrade to hardwood for a painted product. I hope that's true because the "paint grade" price is attractive. Other lines I'm looking at (ie Starmark) only offer hardwood.

Joseph Corlett, what is your own answer to your question?

When you place this discussion on a woodworkers forum the probs working with MDF type product and maintaining quality will come up. Ask for samples. Ask for material names for quality info. Look at what is done at various stages. You'll be living with it.

Thank you all for the insight. Very helpful. Cassandra - I too was looking at Starmark, first hand from close friends that have it and never had problems to multiple open sources rating and reviewing it to be on top.

I think with the information gathered here, I need to take put aside the mdf v plywood and concentrate on the actual build/construction, the manufacturer, retailer selling/installing, and actual doors.

Thank you all!

Cassandra, we'd like to answer your question on what Showplace uses for "paintgrade" cabinetry. We appreciate the opportunity to do so, as we are a brand that points out the materials used on our website and passes the cost savings along.

We created "paintgrade" as a species offering for our brand in order to identify the differences and price accordingly.

Our paintgrade species uses solid hardwood (maple) for the frame portion of the doors and the face frame of the cabinets (the face frame is what the cabinet doors attach to) and we use MDF for the center panel of the door. MDF is an engineered wood that does not grow or shrink with changes in climate so it is a very stable material. MDF also machines and finishes beautifully when done right.

With Showplace, your paintgrade moldings are also solid hardwood...just a
grade of hardwood that allows more visual character, which you do not
see when it is covered with solid paint. This cost savings is passed
along to homeowners who choose the paintgrade species.

Many other brands, including very high-end brands, use MDF for door panels when cabinets are painted; unfortunately, not all brands reveal that information nor do they charge less for the cabinets. It's a point worth asking if you buy painted cabinets.

Door style: Pendleton 275 Inset | Species: Paint grade | Finish: White · More Info