Car loan for recent college grad vs paying cash?
RNmomof2 zone 5
8 years ago
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paying cash for a house part 2
Comments (31)i agree with you conceptually about only investing in thing you believe in, or rather in things you can stomach as most investments and industries have a downside if you look hard enough. eventually you get to exploited workers and poisoned rivers and solid waste. i personally struggled with the payday investment i made. the return was high, but i did not want to be associated with it. i said no for about 6 months. over that six months i learned how they (where my money is now) did business. after i understood it i had a hard time thinking of it any differently than a bank. they both loan money based on ones ability to earn money and pay it back. the only difference is the duration and the size of the loan. a bank allows me to spend money i don't have on a credit card and then charges me 13-18% until i pay them back while they themselves are leveraged 10 to 1 on those dollars loaned. the payday place will only loan me money that will be covered in my NEXT paycheck and charge me a flat fee of $5 or $10 while they themselves have a dollar for every dollar they loan out. when i look at it like that i really had no problem with the payday place, but started to have them with the banks. the payday places are not dragging the economy down because of their recklessness. they are also not enslaving an entire generation by offering them credit they cannot pay back. there are people who use them recklessly, and it is real easy to point them out because they are the fringe. it is a little harder to point out the middle class suburbanite who is a slave to their credit card and bank because they get up and go to work each day and keep a nice yard but are living on credit. both industries lend money and both are technically guilty of charging people who don't have money. they are in business to make money, not give it away. in the end neither is good nor bad just as fire is neither good nor bad. the good or bad all depends on who uses it and how they use it. the payday places service a far less afluent and unsophisticated clientele and therefore gives them very little wiggle room to abuse the system. if they want to stay one paycheck behind for the rest of their lives, that is about all they can do. the bank will let me get decades behind because they assume i am responsible and won't let it come to that but do little to stop me and recently have even encouraged me to do so. in my mind it is a match compared to the bonfire. both can be abused, but the potential abuse of a credit card is far greater. but there may be other payday places that have different policies than where i invested. mind you i don't have equity in the payday place�"they borrowed money from me to lend. in short my money is on deposit to be lent out just as if i put it in a savings account for the bank to lend out on a credit card loan. the main difference is my rate of return is almost 10 times higher but not FDIC insured. the only thing i do struggle with is the 10% they charge for cashing checks. this is outrageous in my opinion. i can't understand why anybody would do that unless they were unable to cash it elsewhere and i won't speculate as to why. but in the end they have their reason and are paying a premium for it. and with that i leave it. cigarettes are another issue and i am totally with you. i feel the same way about other products as well most are not as overtly damaging, but their products do carry liability and they push them with abandon to those who are hurt by them. not just talking guns and alcohol. a few minutes watching saturday morning cartoons was an eyeopener to the type of products marketed to kids. slap a mcdonald's logo on a bucket of mud and i think my kids would want to eat it. a friend of mine who is militant about his hate for phillip-morris and smoking in general (i think he lost a parent to lung cancer) holds half his portfolio in tobacco stocks. he justification was that it "those people" are going to annoy him with their smoke and take his taxes in healthcare, they are going to pay him for it. an interesting take on moral investing practices, but for him it makes sense. i respect your desire to not follow my practice of investing in payday lending. we not only have to undderstand our investments, but repect if not love them. i do not love payday lending, and to be honest would rather be elsewhere, but for the time being it is a good place and i am no so morally apposed to money lending as to not take the opportunity. i do however own no bank stocks for obvious reasons, i think their model is risky. i also think they are on the more unethical side of business. they have laws and loopholes that allow them to do things that are illegal to any other company. id it because we need their services and that is what it takes, or is it because they have power to influence if not make laws that favor them? i think recent events have shown us it is a little of both. before i sound too anti-establishment, let me say i think financial institutions are important and necessary�"ie. banks, insurance companies, the US government, the FED, and even payday lenders. BUT they are in busniness to make themselves rich, not us. if you do not understand what they are doing, how they make money, or worse, what you are doing, they will take advantage of you. thus education. it is through education that you can see the smoke and mirrors they use to make you feel good about making them rich at your expense. one of the most ubiquitous is the home mortgage. i am emphatic that the most expensive ways to buy a house are in this order; cash, paid off early mortgage, continually refinanced mortgage, a 15-year note, a 30-year note, ARM, variable rate, interest only, and deferred interest-AKA sub-prime being the cheapest. that said, i don't like differed interest as it assumes the risk in the real estate market and if used by the uneducated or irresponsible it can (and has) blown up in the borrowers face. what does the bank want you to do? they love you to take out a 30 year and refinance every few years or pay it off early. if you are going to take it to term, they prefer you take out a 15-year because it makes them more money and that is why they have a cheaper rate to take it�"they need to give you incentive to do what benefits them and think you are getting the better end of the deal�"if it makes them more money, how can it also save you money and show up in two places at once? this all sounds like hericy i know. but where do we get our financial education from? our bank? alan greenspan has a nice quote about the variable interest only mortgage being the best deal out there if people only knew how to use it and the 30 year not serving its customers as the think. i will see if i can find it. the mortgage subject was perhaps the most eye-opening and influential education i ever had in finance. it is the lesson that taught me to see the whole equation and not look at a financial strategy in a vacuum. it taught me to understand finance on a macro economic level to understand how to best use products on a micro economic level. it is painful and feels like you brain is removed and turned around and put back in. but i assure you it is all true and useful information, but it requires the user to be responsible for their financial life and some are not willing to do this and for them it is not wise to have control. just as fire in the hands a of one is destructive and to another the opposite. what i am talking about is basic business finance�"in short figuring out the lost opportunity cost and the taking the greatest margin. if done properly with understanding risk is minimized and growth is maximized. some will refuse to believe, but that does not prove those strategies wrong. i myself do not practice whole-heartedly all the strategies i know an believe because of issues regarding timing, my own laziness or whatever. this does not mean i don't acknowledge their strengths or potential. but it serves me to understand alternatives. there are many i have encountered on this forum and in other places who flat out throw up a wall and won't even try to understand that there are several strategies to use in every situation and they all have merits. my beef is with those who claim merits that are not truly there or ignore others. those who emotionally attach themselves to dogma that was sold to them without trying to understand. i have been guilty of this and still am at times and it only hurts myself. when i have a few hours to spend with a calculator, i will start a new thread and actually run the numbers on the most popular mortgage products side-by-side including paying cash. i will treat all as equals. it is amazing how different the outcome is from popular beliefs, but if you look at who is selling the mortgages and the information i guess it is not shocking. it won't prove anything other than which is the most expensive in terms of money and what risks are inherent in each scenario. the individual would have to choose which is best for them. the problem is that most choose the wrong thing for what they claim to want. if you know how they each work you can choose more appropriately for your goals whatever they may be....See MorePaying for Your Childrens' College
Comments (27)My ex- went through Univ. on scholarship from her Dad's aircraft plant, that had closed down shortly after WWII. She achieved top marks, so may have merited other scholarships through some of her 4 years at Iowa State and Cornell. She, a canny Mid-westerner, graduated with some cash on hand. I had 3 yrs. at Univ. of Saskatchewan, provincial school, so low tuition, especially back in the late 40s, then 3 yrs. (liberal Protestant) seminary, minimal if any tuition. Dad agreed to cover my costs, but I knew that he was saving to put down payment on a farm, or, later, to pay off mortgage, so, after spending first summer at home, worked during the summers, two of them (required) as summer student minister in small churches (only open in summer) and two doing other work (that paid better). Had several money-raising tasks during the school year, including a stint of 3-students to a room (usually 2), managing the phone room, waiting tables, acting as agent for a laundry, cutting hair, etc. When I asked Dad for money, I always got it. He said that if we wanted to farm, we could farm with him, and have it when he retired, or if we wanted to go to school, he'd put us through as far as we wanted to go (as long as we played fair and kept our nose to the grindstone, implied). But that would be all that we'd get - the ones who stayed on the farm would get that. In the event, on his death, farmer brother got more land, but I and my dead brother's kids got one piece of land each, and the financial assets were split equally. As the ex- and I had split when our kids were small, we each contributed to their three/four years of Univ., about 1/3 by her, 1/3 by me and 1/3 by the kid involved, I think. Neither of them actually followed through on the field in which they were trained, son in journalism (he went into sales for a time, later entertainer), daughter in hotel management (getting B. Comm.) she worked as liaison between her school and potential employers, fundraiser for women's shelter, office manager for agency helping stop bedwetting (90% success rate, but co. went broke - a shame!). More recently a coach for disemployed/downsized/outplaced/redundant (i.e. fired) people. They have recently received a leg up financially in the world from their mother's estate - she was 9 years younger than I. Good wishes to all of you for effectively managing your money, not only currently, but as you deal with the lifelong needs of your family. Better that you boss your money than the only alternative that I know of ... having it boss you (spoken by someone with 20 years' or so experience as a personal financial advisor)! ole joyful...See MoreAre we better off paying Cash or getting a Mortgage ????
Comments (67)The idea of front loaded interest on mortgages is a bit of a misconception, while you pay more interest in the early years that is only because you owe more money (If you have a 3.9% mortgage then you pay 3.9%/12 on the outstanding balance you owe each month). While that may sound pertinent, the discussion is really about effective interest versus compounding interest. As you pay on your principle you pay less interest, so over time the interest charges are smaller because your principle is smaller. While on an investment you start with a principle and if left alone for some period of time the interest continues adding to the principle and therefore pays more interest. This discussion is largely around the idea of people who have some income coming in and some ability to make payments. While, I could note that guaranteed payment annuities are about equal to house payments, they are no more liquid than houses so not really an investment that is better than a house. In the end, we are discussing people who want to be done with the headache of a mortgage and not people who simply don't have the income to continue paying a mortgage. Edit: It is also important to remember that a 15 year mortgage doesn't mean you have to make 15 years of payments. Making even a few years of payments before liquidating the investments to pay off the balance will typically result in gains. I think a lot of people focus too much on the stress of coming up with the money for monthly payments and forget that any time you get tired of stressing over payments, you can simply liquidate your investment and pay off the loan. While I have said the same thing jn3344 has many times, I have a completely different conclusion. When you have a paid off house and little money in the bank you have no options for dealing with uncertainty. Cash gives you options, the farther you get from cash the less options you have, and nothing is farther from cash than a house. Think of it this way. My father was just this week presented with a treatment option for a medical condition that was not covered by Medicare, the time sensitive treatment was going to cost $35,000, but it would greatly improve his quality of life. What allowed my father to make that decision was having access to $35,000, if he paid for his house outright and didn't have any money then he couldn't make that decision. Now suppose spending this $35,000 means my father will not be able to continue paying his mortgage and will have to move out of his house into a smaller apartment. I feel confident he will tell you walking around his smaller apartment beats not being able to walk around his bigger house. Edit: Many people have a false sense of security from a home. The only real security a paid off home provides is the equity (the access to cash). Homes are fairly inefficient domiciles, the taxes, maintenance and less efficient utilities minimize any real savings over renting. The path to homeless has nothing to do with a paid off house and a lot to do with not enough cash....See MoreDebt: Paying Off vs Loan
Comments (24)Even if I can exercise control (which I'm confident I can because I do not want to be here again) I just simply don't need that much credit. And it ties up my credit too right?! They do not tie up your ratios - open accounts are much better for your ratios. Your available credit never hurts your credit score only the amount that you have used. I have about 5 times my annual salary in available credit and my has about 3 times her salary in available credit. We don't use it, and I can get more credit today. For disciplined people there is never a reason to cancel a card. Spread out your debt - 5 cards each with $10,000 limit and $900 on each are better for your credit than 1 card with $4,500 and 4 cards with 0. The more open accounts that you have the better it is for your credit. For the number of accounts to not negatively effect your credit, you need more than 20 (installment or revolving). Don't tie your cards together. For credit cards, if you can avoid it, never be an authorized user of your spouses card or a joint holder of cards. There is absolutely no reason in modern society to tie your credit scores together. Bad things happen, with separate cards it is possible to protect one spouses credit while letting the other's take a hit. I also have things like my mortgage, car payment, insurance, and mobile phone bills which will still be on there. Phone, insurance, utilities, etc. are not on your credit report. Installment loans and revolving credit are the only things on there. Many of these bills don't report on-time payments just derogatory remarks. what's negatively affecting my credit right now is my hard pulls due to my mortgage. Hard pulls diminish as time goes by, after 6 months they have little, if any, effect. I think I would still prefer to just get rid of them. That is perfectly fine - my goal on this forum is to inform people about the reality of money, credit and discipline. If you still want to get rid of them after informing yourself, great. Often these things go against common sense. It is important to remember that common sense and credit scores are not anywhere near the same thing. Credit scores favor people with lots of unused credit and never even look at your salary or the money you have in the bank. A guy making $250,000 a year with $1,000,000 in a money market account may not qualify for a credit card when a guy making $18,000 with $8 in the bank would. In the end, credit is an algorithm that says based on people with similar credit profiles your risk is X....See MoreRNmomof2 zone 5
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