Need help determining what type of UPS and whole house surge protector
aquinski
8 years ago
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aquinski
8 years agoRelated Discussions
Whole house surge protection?
Comments (24)I was in the same boat, but have learned enough to ask the right questions now. I do think you should talk to both the Leviton dealer and the electrician and compare notes. I plan on asking the electrician what brand and model of whole protector he uses and then checking that out. As long as it is rated to 40 to 50,000 amps and 700 to 900 joules - that probably will be good enough as a first line of defense. I have also decided that the Leviton in wall outlets are going to provide a good secondary line of defense for most (but not all) of my expensive appliances and are a very good value. I can add a second level of surge protection to my $5000 refrig for 50 dollars - that's a no brainer. So my recommendation for the second level of defense is either use power strips (which work OK under desks for computer equipment) or the in-wall outlets for things like TV's, washing machines, etc. These in-wall outlets are good for 15amp and 20amp devices - but not higher. There are a few remaining pieces to the puzzel that I am still researching, and when I find out information I will post it here. I still have a number of devices where I want secondary surge protection but the in-wall outlets or power strips won't work. My well pump, septic pump, bubble tub and dish washer fall under the 15 amp class BUT they are directly wired so there is no outlet plug. An obvious great solution here would be to have a circuit breaker that was also a surge protector - then I could simply use those breakers to protect the entire circuit that these devices are on and be done. I need 15A, 20A, and 30A breakers that are also surge protection devices - I have not found such a product yet. I also wonder if I need a special device for pump motors which by design create a small surge when they start up. I also have large current drawing devices that do have a wall plug like my 30 amp 240 Volt electric dryer that plugs into the wall, but I need a 30 amp plug in surge protector - and leviton doesn't appear to make one of those. I did find a 30 amp plug in surge protector made for RV Campers but it is for 120 volts only. In the end, I may just start out with the whole house devices for the primary protection at the main electrical panels and then use the leviton outlets where I can, and hope for the best on the other devices. I will then add surge protectors to the other things as new products become available - since this appears to be a growing problem. If you find out anything in your research - please post it. Thanks...See MoreOptions for whole-home surge protection
Comments (4)I have the Leviton 51110-001 model. External to the panel. Connects via 2 20A breakers. No phone/cable filtering. For AC filtering, all seemed about the same to my "day of research". I was shuffing around some circuits anyway with an upgrade to my HVAC system so I made sure the two breakers were at the top of the panel....See MoreWhole House Surge Protector - Advice Needed
Comments (33)bud wrote: "If the energy hits are much smaller, the cumulative energy rating is much higher." brickeyee wrote: Except that each one decrease the maximum energy that can be handled, and lowers the break over voltage slightly. __________ Geez - someone intelligent to talk to. But the MOVs still function and limits the voltage. The cumulative energy rating still increases (as can be seen from characteristic curves for MOVs). (I am assuming in all cases MOVs are used on power wiring. There are different problems if you are using them on, for instance, telephone wiring.) ========== brickeyee wrote: You can end up with a device that will open circuit while high voltage is still present, resulting in downstream damage. __________ They are open circuit after catastrophic failure. Normal failure for MOVs on power circuits is conduction on normal voltage and thermal runaway. The thermal disconnects required by UL since 1998 disconnect the overheating MOVs before catastrophic failure. Msrtzloff says catastrophic failure is more likely caused by overvoltage (discussed below) than a "surge". ========== brickeyee wrote: It takes a vanishingly small amount of actual energy to damage many electronics. Even micro-amps at a high voltage can destroy semiconductors in a single pulse lasting a few nanoseconds. __________ Sure. Risetimes of surges coming in on power, phone, cable service wires are limited by the inductance of the supply wiring. MOVs are fast enough for any such surge. Some other devices, like gas discharge tubes aren't since they require an arc to be initiated. ========== bud wrote: "maximum surge that had any reasonable probability of occurring" brickeyee wrote: If he only considered lightning he failed to account for distribution line problems like falling wires. The fault current in the grid is far in excess of 10,000 amps per wire. Composite interrupt ratings are higher for this reason. __________ As I wrote, crossed power wires are not "surges" and you can not rely on either service panel or plug-in protectors for protection. They are not designed for it. (There are some plug-in protectors that are supposed to disconnect on overvoltage, and a UPS may safely disconnect.) ========== brickeyee wrote: Lightning is rather nasty, with multiple strokes in a single strike, and a huge range of voltages and currents (2 kA to 250 kA, Integral i^2dt from 6E3 to 1.5E7 A^2s, and flashes from 0.15 ms to 1.100 seconds). __________ I have not seen data on surges anywhere near 1.1 seconds. The probability of a surge that is beyond 10kA is very low and the probability of protector failure is correspondingly small. Martzloff has argued that long surge events would result in far higher incidence of protector failures than is seen. ========== bud wrote: "The normal failure mode of a MOV is it starts to conduct at normal voltages (after any surge) and goes into thermal runaway." brickeyee wrote: And then fails open, by accident or design. __________ On power circuits catastrophic failure occurs after thermal runaway at normal voltages. UL required thermal disconnects disconnect failing MOVs before they catastrophically fail open. ========== brickeyee wrote: I have spent over 30 years now designing protection for electronics, including 'operate through' systems (operate during occurs more by luck with smaller strikes). TELCOs have needed better and better protection as they have switched from mechanical stepper relays to electronic switching. A pulse that might barely tickle the old mechanical systems can wreak havoc if it get very far into the electronic central offices now in common use. One of the isolation methods is to take local loops and multiplex them onto a fiber optic link withing the CO. The vulnerable equipment is isolated from the local loops. __________ I agree vulnerability of all the new electronics is a challenge. Fiber optic (and wireless) makes protection of equipment with connection to both power and signal a lot easier. When you move out of a house and into an extended commercial or industrial setting problems with different ground reference voltages become a lot greater. I expect most people here are interested in residential. ========== bud wrote: "Only 5% of lightning strikes are stronger, and the strike was extremely close." brickeyee wrote: The 5% limit for a negative first stroke and flashes is 150 kA, and 250 kA for a single positive flash. __________ Every source I have read is the percentage of all lightning strikes that are over 100kA is about 5%. ========== brickeyee wrote: And it can hit all the way up to the service drop on the side of the house. There is not reliable way to protect from these strikes in a residential setting. __________ But the probability is extremely low. That is the point of the 10kA figure (which is also in the IEEE surge guide) - there is a very low probability of a worse event. The figure I saw was once in 8000 years. It is not practical to design anything for the worst possible case. ========== brickeyee wrote: Service equipment is often destroyed. The service drop from the weather head serves as a crude guide to a final earth flash, with damage to the panel and interior wiring of the house not all that uncommon. Buried lines are significantly better (not very likely to be struck directly, and the line insulation often fails at extreme overvoltage if distribution lines are struck and it gets past the transformer). ========== bud wrote: "My understanding is that there is not likely to be significant damage." brickeyee wrote: The arcing over in the panel creates damage in and of itself depending on the exact path it takes. __________ The arc voltage is, if I remember right under 500V, but call it 500. Assume 10kA surge current for 100 microseconds. The energy is 500 joules. That is the energy from a 120V 4A load for 1 second. Panel damage does not seem as likely as it would seem. ========== brickeyee wrote: The flash can damage insulation on wires in the panel, damage circuit breakers (especially GFCI and AFCI devices with electronics), and even cause fires in panels. It is not a pretty sight to open and examine a panel that has received a nearby stike. __________ But again probability of major damage is low. A service panel protector with a high surge current may have a let through voltage high enough to damage AFCI/GFCI breakers. I have no idea what their withstand voltage rating is. ========== bud wrote: "And a direct strike to the building requires lightning rods for protection - but you are not talking about a direct strike." brickeyee wrote: And there are far more houses without rods than with, meaning the building itself and its utility wiring is an easy entry point. I remember watching a 3 story townhouse that was struck with extensive fires ignited throughout the attic and top two stories. We watched the whole thing from strike to the FD getting it under control from out nearby 6 story office building (we had already had antennas, transmitters, receivers, lab equipment, and even some upper floor building wiring damaged from a failure to bond the rebar in the building adequately during construction). Within the 3-4 minutes for the FD to respond (semi-rural area) the attic and third floor had become fully involved, with flames starting to exit some second story windows. The firewall to the adjacent unit held up adequately, but the entire unit was declared a loss and then demolished down to the basement slab and then rebuilt __________ As I said, to protect from a direct lightning strike you need lightning rods (now called air terminals), which is not what the discussion has been about. ========== bud wrote: "Then the inductance of the branch circuit greatly limits the current, and thus energy, that can reach the protector." brickeyee wrote: But the inductance also serves to increase the voltage created. Free lunches remain unavailable. __________ There is inadequate information on what you have in mind. The inductance of the branch circuit limits the current. It will somewhat lengthen the duration of the surge. But the fact remains that with a 10,000A surge on the incoming power wire the maximum energy absorption at a plug-in protector was 35 joules. The maximum was not even for the largest surges. The largest surges forced the voltage at the service above 6kV and arc-over. For some smaller surges (with the shortest branch circuits) the MOVat the protector held the voltage at the panel below 6kV and there was no arc-over. One of them resulted in the maximum energy of 35 joules. The voltage at the panel was higher than the stable arc-over voltage but lower than 6kV. ==========...See Morewhole house surge protector with generator
Comments (8)Hope you don't mind but I'd like to ask about my similar situation. Our service comes into our main panel in the barn. From there it goes to the service panel in our house (not attached to the barn). And we have a standby propane generator that is not yet hooked up to the service panel in the house (under construction). Our new home is in an area with frequent lighting strikes (and we have the scorched trees to prove it). We've had the power company out twice in the last 6 months when the transformer tripped. One of the strikes burned out all the exterior lights on the barn and an overload fuse on the well pump in the house. At the time of the strike, the power to house was actually turned off from the main service panel in the barn. Power was just running from the service to the main panel. I think that getting a whole-house surge protector might help to prevent or at least lessen damage. Do we need a whole-house surge protector for each ... barn service panel, house service panel, and generator? Or just one surge protector? I'm sure out electrician will know what to do but I'd like to get an idea of what we will need so I can budget....See Morekeywest230
8 years agolast modified: 8 years agoaquinski
8 years agoaquinski
8 years agokeywest230
8 years agolast modified: 8 years agoionized_gw
8 years agog thom
8 years agoVith
8 years agolast modified: 8 years agog thom
8 years agoionized_gw
8 years ago
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