OOPS! I see that Austins are supposed to be in the Antique Roses Forum... Should I move this post? :)

Hi Rebecca

Since this is the forum about all roses, it's fine to discuss Austins here.

In zone 4, you have to be pretty cautious about any roses if you want them to climb. I've had two of these survive in my zone 5 yard (except Leander), but neither survived in a zone 4 pocket of the yard. However, if you want an Austin that will more or less climb in zone 4, Teasing Georgia (a yellow) does this in my zone 4 pocket.

There are better climbers for zone 4, starting with the Canadian explorers, but it depends on your situation. FWIW, I've found that the east side of my house is colder than the other sides (it's my zone 4 pocket), so be extra cautious about that side.

In your zone, you're mostly concerned about climbers that are tip hardy in zone 4 that will climb, and only as a secondary concern does it become an issue about bloom performance. Fragrance in a climber in zone 4 is a long shot in my experience.

Cynthia

Oh, Nippstress, this is so interesting!!! I say that I am in zone 4, but in reality, zone 3 is right across the street. :) Winter winds come from the NW and can be very brutal at times. I found it to be just the opposite for me as far as East side placement. I have 10 Johann Strauss growing on the east side without protection, but they are right next to the house. I planted them grafted 10 years ago with the graft 6 inches below ground level. I cut them down every year to the ground and they come back like gangbusters and put out 3 huge flushes of bloom. I filled in a space with a JS that I rooted, of one that died from canker (came that way, I think, because we don't have that here) and that own root rose is behaving the very same as the others. IF I went 3 feet away from the house, though, it might be another story.

I do have Teasing Georgia planted in that spot, but was going to replace her with something not as thorny. Maybe I should leave well enough alone. :) She does very well in zone 4... Again winter kills to the ground, but I will add some protection to her from now on. I lost her in my zone 3 pocket where the wind whips through and leaves no snow cover... B-r-r-r!!

Thank you for your insight! It was exactly what I needed to hear! I do believe I will put up with thorns to have beautiful roses!

Glad this was helpful. As insight from an old rose quote: "We can either lament that roses have thorns, or rejoice because thorns have roses".

Having said this, if you're looking for a more or less thornless climber that should climb in your zone, the "real" Reine des Violettes is supposed to be zone 4 and thornless. I have the "not" RdV, and mine is totally cane hardy but quite thorny. I think Burlington Roses has the real RdV, and it's supposed to be not only thornless but a rebloomer (mine is a once-bloomer). As I understand, the real one is supposed to be fragrant too. The only other thornless climber that I grow is Zephrine Drouhin, and I think its upper limits would be zone 5.

Your photo of your Johann Strauss bank is just lovely, so you obviously have "the gift" and will be able to make this work in your spot. You could always plant something shorter & more thornless around the edges of Teasing Georgia to protect you from its thorns, or use something that doesn't cause excess bloodletting to loop around TG to keep her mannerly (like the loops of 4' high green garden fence I use to constrain roses that aren't quite climbing as well as I'd like yet). Regardless, it sounds like you have a good plan.

Cynthia

OH THANK YOU, CYNTHIA for the Reine des Violette idea! I knew there was a difference in them, but didn't know where to find the thornless one. That would give me a pop of color AND I could put it next to the seating area of my patio so it wouldn't be so thorny to sit beside.

The plan is to take copper 1/2 inch tubing and create a trellis that I can tie my canes to that is in front of the rose... Then over winter, I will wrap burlap around that to see if I can get some cane to survive. If I don't, Teasing Georgia will still climb to 6 feet and put out blooms like a machine. I can't believe I was thinking of moving her. Thanks for helping me to see what I had was the best!!!

Rebecca

I've tried the burlap thing with no success. I have not tried the Minnesota tip, but I know it works.

Hi Rebecca, can I trouble you as to where you posted the photo of the Johann Strauss bushes or if it's easier to re-post here? I'm very interested in this varietal because I saw what I think was JS when I was in Portland, OR at the Test Gardens. Strangely it was in a row of Traviatas and this single bush wasn't labeled but I took pics of it. I've attempted to research it, but I'm still not sure. Here are a couple of photos of what I saw in Portland:

It was so healthy and great blooms! Thanks in advance for any insights.

Ameri, I wish you wouldn't have told me that... :) No, really, it's a good thing because I'm probably too lazy to do it anyway. As for the Minnesota tip, I am WA-A-A-A-A-AY too lazy for that one. I just hack them off to the ground in the fall and let them climb in the spring.

Lovely photo Rebecca - it sets off the color of your house so nicely too! I agree with Ameri2nal that the burlap isn't a very reliable method to increase cane survival in a climber, and if it needs it that wouldn't be a good rose for zone 4 anyway. Neither Teasing Georgia nor RdV should need any protection, and I agree that I'm too lazy for the Minnesota tip.
Just an observation that you might be sacrificing some potentially surviving cane y hacking any of your roses to the ground in the fall. Particularly in a climber, even more particularly after you shed the blood to tie it to a trellis, you want to leave as much surviving cane as possible to support new rose growth in the spring. You might need to trim off cane as it dies off over the winter, but wait till spring to do this and don't trim any more than you have to.

You also know to tie your rose canes as horizontally as they'll go on your trellis, then either zigzag the canes up the trellis as it grows, or pull the entire main cane horizontally and tie on the laterals as the grow (also as horizontally as they'll get)? This will make it bloom better, since tying the canes straight up as they grow will end up with mostly tufts of blooms at the end of the canes rather than all up the length, at least on a climber. You might know this already, but it's worth mentioning.

Cynthia

Rebecca, I garden in zone 5 now, but for decades I had a zone 4 rose garden and I experimented with every darn climber I could find that anyone told me would be hardy in zone 4. And I can also tell you that Ameri2nal is correct that wrapping in burlap is not going to do the trick. Been there, tried that - no real success. Your Johann Strauss row is lovely - but it is planted next to the foundation of the house (always a bit warmer) and you say that it is cut down to the soil level every year and regrows. That's often the case in zone 4 - you can find roses that properly planted (as you are doing) will survive and bounce back - but in a climber where you really want long canes to survive from year to year, just survival of what is below ground is not enough. I'd be shocked if you have any surviving cane above the snow line on your original 3 roses you were inquiring about. And I must add that I'm dubious about live cane on Reine des Violettes, either. I never was successful with that one in zone 4. I have it planted now in my zone 5 garden, but I don't know yet how it will have survived its first winter here - although it has been a mild one. But I'm not holding my breath.

I can tell you that there is a virtually thornless climber called Victorian Memory (AKA Isabella Skinner) that I grew for years in zone 4. Well, really it is a very tall shrub, but it can be pruned and trained to grow on a trellis. I had it tied up and over one side of a copper arch for many years. I think there are still my photos of it on that you can view at HelpMeFind...probably you'd have to click on "older" photos. It is available at Rogue Valley Roses and it is one that I would recommend for your zone.

http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.3416.1&tab=1

Anne

Cynthia, Thank you so much for the compliment! I only do the hacking on roses that have died to the ground in the past... Especially the Johann Strauss. Because the graft is already 6" under the dirt, I feel it's ok for them. I have rarely had any cane survive. It's strange, but they seem to like the hacking. Every year they send out an incredible amount of new canes. Their performance is beyond any of my other roses except Perdita. She does the 3 bloom flush as well. All the rest are pretty much 2 flushes.

For several years I had 3 St. Swithun on a trellis. Those canes got tied horizontal (thanks for the reminder), and they all did well, no cane die back and great bloom. Then one year I lost all three of them and my Teasing Georgia. As I said, it was the worst part of my yard... North winds came ripping through. It was pretty amazing that Austins survived as long as the did there at all.

Another interesting thing is Austins that are own root seem to do better for me. Grafted go all to cane and nothing to bloom. Go figure.

Rebecca

Oh, Anne, I remember the photos... It is because of them that I purchased Isabella Skinner! I loved the roses, but I was literally drowning in canes. There was no managing them. They came from everywhere! The roses blew quickly for me and I just decided it was a beautiful rose, but not for my spot.

I certainly appreciate all the advice. Thank you for it!

Rebecca

Thank you Rebecca! Great photo and thanks for your comments and for excusing me for hijacking your question with another. I'm sorry I couldn't help with your question. I'm sure you'll choose a "goodie." Thanks again.

You are welcome, Towanda! I am extremely guilty of hijacking of questions when it comes to this forum... So no worries. :)

Rebecca

No problem, Rebecca. I understand what you mean about drowning in canes. I soon learned to be ruthless in pruning out unsuitable new shoots on Isabella Skinner and can't imagine what it would be like if left to its own devices, LOL. Once it was mature I allowed only one or two new canes each year, removing an equal number of old ones the following spring. It can be managed, but it's quite true that it takes a lot of effort. I guess the moral being that nothing comes easily in zone 4! ;-)

Well, sorry I couldn't help and I hope you find what you are looking for in your particular spot. Please do report back if you try RdV and meet with success!

Anne

Thank you, Anne. I absolutely will. Still mulling it all over in my head, but that's what winters are for! :)