My south window area is growing. I check my damp coffee filters in baggies (I call it the incubator) every morning and put any germinated seeds into pots, I described this "I'm too cheap to buy heating mats" process on the winter sowing thread. Yesterday 3 Astralagus germinated. I received some inflated pods from New Mexico in the mail from a friend -- funky looking dried out yellow bladder-balloon things with freckles, each was full of black seeds. Last year my direct sowing resulted in exactly 0 plants. I plan to grow 3 indoors for transplanting but will take any remaining swollen seeds out to direct sow since this is a very early spring bloomer = two chances for success. We've been so dry but I am hoping the plumped up seeds will be ready to sprout when the weather warms.

I've got some really cute red leaf with burgundy flower celosia up, cuter than a button because the tiny plants are all red, in the baggies the tiny start of growth was bright pink.

West Texas Grass Sage are putting on true leaves and the NM mystery grass plants are now about an inch tall.

Prince's Plume -- three so far from 5 year old seed.

Rock Rose Mallow, Unknown type of Hibiscus, Prickly Poppy, Mesquite tree, Agastache-- still nothing.

Some unknowns are up and labeled according to where I collected them. I'm a wildflower native plant grower so oftentimes it takes me a while to pin down a name but if I like the plant I see I collect a few seeds. I'm always on the lookout and keep baggies in the glove compartment. Actually this is a favorite occupation of mine because I get spend time unravelling the mysteries.

OT--- 4 look-alike mystery penstemons (I'm 90% sure they are penstemons) are up in my yard. I discovered them when I was out trimming back for spring. Seems several of us are growing penstemons and I want to add that besides the flowers one of the great things about them is the variation of color of the winter foliage and the thick waxy texture is nice on some kinds. I have one type that is blue & deep pink, another type that is green, a solid blue type and now these new ones that are deep burgundy. How fun is that? Last year I direct sowed 4 new types that didn't come up so I imagine these are one of them. I get to wait to see which one.

Texasranger2, does celosia cross-pollinate easily? We saved seed from the one DW liked out of several she doesn't care much about.

lizbest1 said, "It's funny how so many gardeners out there get super offended if you question why they do something or use a term they don't consider 'correct'."

Could it be for reasons like this: I once departed from my usual soil mix to try something the hardware store had. I promptly forgot the brand but still remember the cartoon daisy on the bag. My entire season was nearly ruined by poor germination! Luckily, I realized that there was a problem with just enough time to start again. I lost some varieties completely because I'd used all the seed with nothing to show for it. I'd never had so disastrous of a start.

Steve

BTW, i've used soilless mix but only for cuttings. i am afraid to use anything but Black Gold, by the same company that puts together Sunshine. www.sungro.com

I'll have to check out the Black Gold, Digit. Saw it was carried by a few local places when I was doing a search for Skybird's Sunshine mix. I've used Miracle Grow in my winter sown jugs just because it was readily available at the Sam's Club on my way home and I needed to get everything out there before I was spring sowing instead of winter sowing! I'll look for the better stuff before I start seeds inside, though.

Liz, finally getting back here to answer your soil question!

First, the one to NEVER buy is Hyponex! That’s the one that’s SLUDGE! There are many other brands that are good
quality—they just need to feel “light and fluffy” when they’re moist, like the
Sunshine sample I had along at the swap, and they'll be composed mostly of Canadian sphagnum peat. [NOT Colorado sedge peat!]

I buy the Sunshine #1 at Paulino’s—and I buy it in “bales,”
which is the most “economical” way to buy commercial potting soil. Rather than trying to retype the whole thing,
here’s a link to a Potting Soil Tome of mine on an old thread! It explains bales vs. bags, and has a bunch
of other info too.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/2138260/fafard-or-promix-potting-soil-where?n=17

It says in that thread that Tagawa’s might carry it—but the
thread is from 2011, and I never did find out even back then if they did for
sure or not. But definitely worth a call
to check!

The “Sunshine link” in that thread now directs to a Black
Gold page, so if you’re interested, here are links to the current SunGro
Sunshine Mix pages. The first is to the
#1 mix, and the second is to a page listing all the various mixes!

http://www.sungro.com/professional-products?brandID=1&catID=1&productID=76

http://www.sungro.com/professional-products?brandID=1

Paulino’s carries all the “basic” mixes in bales. I think they carry other brands in bags, but
if you go there, or wherever you go (REAL garden center), tell them you want
something equivalent to Sunshine or Black Gold—a “basic” mix. The #1, when I got it last spring, was still
under $40 a bale—and you get SO much more than you get in the bags! A bale normally lasts me about a year—except
a couple times when I got totally carried away with swap plants! The bale I got this spring is down to less
than half now, and I will for sure need another one by Spring Swap time! Here’s a pic of my “mostly used bale” from
2011! I took a pic so I could show
people what I was talking about—couldn’t find it on the SunGro site at that
time!

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/IDFfNbnJYUCNH6zMMEeGyPlrEnZxtkcOpHcymm_Nchg?feat=directlink

I generally don’t recommend Miracle Grow because as near as
I can tell they have NO quality control department and sometimes you get really
bad stuff (I found a bunch of rants about it online one time!), and sometimes,
if you’re lucky, apparently you can get some good stuff! I haven’t checked it for years now, but the
time I was “seriously” researching it, I checked bags at a couple places, and
they DO NOT (did not!) list specific ingredients on their packages! They said something like, “may contain…” So it sounded to me like they kinda sorta put
in whatever they happen to have around when they’re mixing it! I don’t know that for sure, so, please,
anybody who reads this and disagrees with me, don’t rant at me about it! It’s just my opinion from personal experience
and what I’ve read! I’ve also read that
there are some people who seem to love the stuff! But I read all sorts of “reviews” telling
about fungus gnats and finding various nasty things in the bags, so I would
never use it myself! I’ve used Sunshine
for MANY years, and I know I get the same thing every time—and it’s good!

If you have unanswered questions after reading The Tome, let
me know! And if you find it at Tagawa,
I’d be interested in knowing about it!

Skybird

P.S. There’s an old
thread with more about Miracle Grow too, but the search function doesn’t seem
to be working right, right now, and it could take “hours” to find it! No matter what I did when I was trying to
find the linked soil thread, I couldn’t get it to search JUST RMG! It keeps searching the whole GW, and I had to
look thru several pages to find something from RMG. Think I lucked out that it wasn’t TOO far
down the list! Hopefully “search” will
be working right again soon!

P.P.S. Hey! look at this! CSU agrees with me about Hyponex!!!!!

http://www.colostate.edu/Dept/CoopExt/4dmg/Plants/pottmix.htm

EDITED TO ADD: I just also noticed that in their list of recommended brands, they do not recommend Miracle Grow either!

So, I pretty much do what everyone else does, lol. My seedlings are growing a closet so, no natural light to speak of. It's all shop fixtures. If you are looking for (what I have found to be) the "bluest," handily enough, I have the label taped to the inside of my gardening journal, lol. I use GE "active spaces F32 T8 Daylight" 2600 lumens, 6500K. (T8 is the diameter of the bulb, you might need a different size depending on your fixture). You can buy them at any old hardware store. If you can't find GE, look for the 6500K, which is the "color temperature," the higher the kelvin rating, the more "blue" wave lengths a light emits. To be perfectly honest though, I still need to test this hypothesis to say for certain whether its supported or not. Lots of people use a different measurement for which lights they chose, I think lumens is one of the more common ones. (See my final paragraph my thoughts on that.)

I use Espoma seed starting mix for indoor seedlings. The reason is far from nuanced: that's what the garden center has available in January/February when I get into gear for starting seeds. By the time they are ready for transplant though, I can usually find a bag of potting mix which is what I transplant into because (another real fancy reason here) it's cheaper and I am usually running pretty thin on the (smaller) bag of seed starter. It also has nutrients, which the sterile starting mix does not, so that's probably a good thing. I do fertilize sometimes, when I remember. 1/4 strength of whatever is closest, miracle grow, jacks, seaweed liquid...

I will strongly emphasize that OVERwatering is the leading cause of seedling death in America. Last year I fell prey to the H2O monster with my peppers.

Another thing I will emphasize on, and even stronger than the above, is Skybird's saying "there’s only one right way to garden—and that’s YOUR way, so if something didn’t work last time, try something different this time, and when you find “your way,” keep on doing it!" Really I have found this to be a fairly strong belief amongst all of us here, which is one of the reasons we like to say Rocky Mountain is the best forum on ol' GW ;).

Thanks all, I'm feeling more confident going forward into inside sowing season! I'll hit up Tagawa the next time I go into Parker to see if they carry Sunshine Mix or Black Gold. Thanks to Skybird's mix demo last trade day I know what to look for if they don't have those specific brands. I agree with you Zach--RMG is the best forum here on GW!

Peppers are definitely one of those seedlings that do better on the dry side. But with all seedlings you don't want them to become bone dry. I always like using the same starting mix with seedlings that way I can tell fairly well how moist the containers are by feeling how much they weigh. And speaking of water, not sure it's been mentioned yet here, but just like watering my houseplants I always let water sit in gallon jugs for at least a day so that it is room temperature and allowed to out gas chlorine byproducts before using it.

Well, keep in mind I'm an Okie (therefore I have a good excuse) but I used the much maligned and substandard Miracle Gro Seed Starter mix and bought a great big bag of WHITE ugly perlite. I usually get vermiculite but Home Depot was out of it and all they had was Miracle Gro potting soil and seed starter mix.

I've never given a single thought about perlite floating in the garden nor have I have had trouble with it or vermiculite in pots. Mainly, I want to $tretch the bag of potting $oil so perhaps Lady Luck takes pity on me and things turn out OK, so far so good this go round & I've had no trouble in the past on these product issues. Native plants might be tougher and more forgiving about their starter mix since they are used to less than perfect soil conditions. All I know is a bag of potting soil goes quick and I'm always looking for ways to do things on the cheap and easy.

digit, I don't know if the celosia cross, its an interesting thought and I'd like to know if you discover whether it does or not. I do know the single flower type of zinnias do because I ended up with a few rather awful colored pink ones last year, a color that reminded me of plastic-- like originally pink but now dingy & sun faded plastic flowers. My reason for growing celosia here is I wish I could grow a big red amaranth but I'm afraid to in my too small yard because it produces so many seeds and I think I'd rue the day I planted it. The deep red celosia is my home-made effort at a red amaranth-ish addition because I saw a photo 2 years ago of a New Mexico landscape of natives and it had red amaranth which I fell in love with. I keep trying for the natural look on a smaller scale so I like looking up photos to see how nature does it.

I agree. Overwatering is very bad. Too dry is usually fixable but too wet is deadly so its best to err on the side of too dry.

Suddenly I have too many seeds germinated. I'm finding it painful to toss the extra germinated seeds in the coffee filters that I don't need, makes me feel like a murderer because I can see the little stem, root and tiny cotyledons. Its worse than thinning somehow.

People don't just get weird when you disagree with their advice or use the wrong term. People feel offended if you say you don't like a certain type of plant they like or one they grow. I don't like Daylily for example, or roses or many others I could list. Stuff like this can get folks mighty riled up because they take it personally & I found its wise to keep silent sometimes but there are times the truth comes out in a separate discussion and some individual not even in the discussion will actually get on the thread and claim to be insulted.

I can understand it.

Here's the flip side. I often feel hurt when someone really slams native plant gardens as being inferior or only suitable for certain settings such as along highways or industrial sites. I mean, can you believe it? it actually hurts my feelings.

Make sure you come back with any questions, Liz! We have a lot of experienced "indoor starters" here and theres a lot of good information. My final piece of advice right now is keep notes. If you have a good memory, in your head will work, if you're like me, I would keep a journal you can look at next year to see what went well and worked, and help narrow down some of the variables that may have caused poor results. More importantly, don't get discouraged by things that do go poorly. Course, you are an experienced gardener already, and a lot of this applies to any aspect that you are familiar with, but a little encouragement is always helpful (I'm sure I will be looking for shoulders to cry on after the first hailstorm this spring).

TR, This year with my winter sowing I made up my own version of what you could call "gritty mix" for my native and xeric seeds. I made a 40/40/10 with 40% playground sand I had in the shed, 40% potting mix, and 10% perlite. I lost a lot of penstemons to root rot in regular potting mix last year, I'm hoping to avoid that this year with the much faster draining mix for these seedlings. Adding additional perilite, even if it's just a way to stretch your bag of mix, is probably a fantastic idea for your native plants.

Liz, I WAY second Zach’s recommendation to keep some sort of
records about what you’re doing and the results so you don’t have to “try to
remember it all” when you’re starting again next year. I just list things on a Word document—things
like when I seeded something, when it germinated, when it was planted out if
that’s applicable, and then any notes about how it did or didn’t do, and with
veggies, especially tomatoes, progress notes about when and how many tomatoes
there are, when they’re ripening, and how they taste. With tomatoes I usually take a scratch pad
out into the garden every now and then to make notes, and then add them to my
“official” document. It’s easy to think “you’ll
remember it all,” but you won’t! And
you’ll be SO glad to be able to look back to see what happened with what!

TR, to save some money on your soil you might want to see if
you can find one of the baled ones somewhere near you. If might seem like “a lot” of money when
you’re buying it, but you get SO much more potting mix for the price that you
definitely save money in the long run.
The bales are “compressed” and when you “fluff them up” you wind up with
the equivalent of multiple bags of loose-packed soil. Just a thought! (If I bought all the soil I use in bags I’d
have to stop doing half the things I do.
It might not seem like much when you’re just buying one bag, but when
you have to keep buying them over and over it really adds up and I just
couldn’t afford it.)

And I agree with Zach that adding perlite to whatever soil
you’re using to increase the drainage for the native type things you grow is a
really good idea! Well, really good idea
for the ones you don’t murder at least!
;-) Too bad you don’t live a
little closer to Denver! You could grow
them all and bring them to one of our swaps!

When you first posted that you were winter sowing—and you’re
in OK, I did a: Say What! I had
this—kinda crazy, I guess—idea that you guys “way down there” were always warm,
if not hot! So I went to NOAA to check it out for myself! Don’t know where you are, so I clicked on
OKC, kind of right in the middle of the state—and when I did it the temps were
30s in the day and 20s overnite! Boy,
was I surprised! Now I know! And I learned that you really do get cold
enough temps to succeed at “winter sowing!”
Tho I suspect things germinate way earlier for you “down there” than
they do for us up here in the more Frigid Climes!

About “those folks who KNOW what’s right for
EVERYBODY!” I don’t know if you read the
“soil thread” I linked, but on the bottom of my post I mentioned “the brouhaha”
that finally convinced me to never post again on the Perennials Forum. One time when I was still posting over there
somebody was asking for recommendations about “how” to plant perennials—how many
and where and such. I said pretty much
that it was considered to be more “aesthetic” to plant groups of uneven numbers
like three or five of any one thing, but that it was their garden, and I
thought they should plant however many they wanted of any plant—whatever THEY
though would be pretty. I added that I
had a very small yard, and there were a LOT of different things I wanted, so I
usually only planted ONE of each thing!
There was an IMMEDIATE response from somebody who posted that if you
only plant ONE of each thing you have a POLKA DOT GARDEN—and, additionally,
that it would look terrible! I posted
that I LIKED Polka Dot Gardens! It was
MY garden, and I was very happy with it!
The person who “knew what was
RIGHT for EVERYBODY” never backed down, and that thread was fairly close to
when I gave up on posting over there!
NOBODY knows what’s right for EVERYBODY!
And the people who think they do are only proving their own
ignorance. You’d LOVE Amester’s
yard! She’s on the south end of the
Denver area and her entire front yard is xeric plants—left to reseed and come
up wherever they want to! So when folks
think THEY know what’s right for YOU, just remember that they’re the ones with
the problem! Your garden is YOUR
garden! I LOVE my Polka Dot Garden!

Gardening is Art, not science!

Skybird

We have personal relationships with plants and that is how it should be. Even if some people are not moved emotionally by being amongst them, we depend on them to sustain human life.

I want to say that my single-minded use of one brand of potting soil isn't really anything I'm proud of. It probably indicates fear and ignorance as much as anything else. And, it ends for any plant that is staying in a container longer than about 12 weeks. At that point, they have had time to adjust to their environment, except for soil. Most will have gone into the open garden. The others will be up potted into whatever mix I think is appropriate and of benefit to them and to my pocketbook. I try to include about one-third to one-half homemade compost. That might fairly well inoculate the plant from anything that is inappropriate in the other one-half, two-thirds.

Steve

Such great advice, especially about your garden being done your way.

Best advice for me was to start a daily/calendar diary with everything you did that day from weather to soil to seeds to varieties of tomatoes, etc. to what did and did not work. It doesn't have to be every day, but it gets easier if you strive for it. Don't forget to include the bad with the good so you won't get discouraged if 'it' happens again and you'll be ready.

For seed starting we like Fox Farms Light Warrior and then transition to another Fox Farms soil like Happy Frog or Ocean Forest. The Superhot peppers are started now and tomatoes near the end of March. Broccoli and cabbages are started soon thereafter and the race is on. Hardening off every plant is like clockwork - in the shade for a week, then they get sun for another week or so. Mother Nature is not always co-operative, though. Neither are the wild creatures.

Experiment. Experiment.

TZ1

P.S. besides the nurseries, check out the hydroponic stores and what we called the 'pot stores' (before it was legal here) for Sunshine soil, or Fox Farms, or other soils.

Quick note! Paulino's does now sell "herb growing supplies"--now that "that particular herb" is legal to grow here in Colorado!

Hope to see more of you around here on RMG, Tomatoz! Welcome!

Skybird

Skybird, I've never hard of bales and wouldn't even know where to look but I will check in to it. I seem to go through a lot of potting soil. Are you in the mountain part of the state? Weather in the central plains is wildly erratic with extremes of every possible variety. Our fickle weather is a roller coaster ride due to the western Mountain barrier, Warm moist gulf stream air colliding with cold arctic Canadian air, open flat expanses of land, high pressure systems colliding with low pressure systems etc. A tremendous amount of energy can be generated with so many contrasting factors at work and we suffer the brunt of it. It often gets extremely cold in winter with a lot static electricity & wind (so much wind most trees lean distinctly toward the north) but then temps can rise up into the upper 80's within a week, that happened this last weekend. No snow leaves the ground exposed to the temperatures in winter, in fact we are very dry currently. Summers are long, spring can be hot and violent with storms. Autumn is usually the nicest time and can extend into December-- we have a longer growing season but it can be too hot for vegetables by mid summer & tomatoes often just shut down production by late July or August.

I would love to go to the Plant Swap, thats true. I'm interested in a lot of Colorado native plants & would like to hike around too. As far as Colorado's legal vs not legal status, thats not appealing and I know I'd get weary of hearing about it.

Tomatoz! Welcome! Thanks, Skybird. Nice to hear about 'hometown' gardens and how everyone works their miracles.

It's crazy with the legal stuff here, texasranger! We actually had a grow house in our neighborhood! Weird to know your local HOA can regulate how many animals you can have and what kinds but can't stop a commercial pot grow! Insane!

My sister lives in Chocktaw OK, I've heard about your winters! Doesn't get quite as cold as CO but with the increased humidity it probably doesn't feel any warmer, at times.

I will keep a journal, thanks for the idea! My set up will be in the same room as my computer so I'll use that.

"so much wind most trees lean distinctly toward the north"

My mom's step mother is from Blackwell, Oklahoma. She always told me that the trees lean north because "Kansas sucks and Texas blows."

I once experienced a winter in South-Central Missouri. That cold wet air just cut right through every layer of insulation and froze your bones. Not sure what the actual temps were, but it was possibly the coldest I have ever felt.

The marijuana issue drives me insane. For some reason, it has led a lot of people to equate "legal" with "that means I can get high anytime, anywhere." No, it means you can sit in your house and do it where I don't have to deal with (and smell) you. One of my biggest problems is the reputation this whole thing has given to our state. Quite frankly I find it embarrassing.

Liz, when I lived in an HOA over in Centennial, they gave us a list of "approved" plants you could have in your landscape! While this was pre-amendment 64, I doubt "cannabis" has been added to their list lol.

ZACH and TEXASRANGER!

And anybody else who's really interested in "native" plants or "wildflowers!"

I just found this site and it has just about the most phenomenal collection of native plants I've seen yet! They sell most of them as seed and a whole lot of them as (bare root) plants too. And the info they provide with each plant is really good! They even provide some good germination info, which is really helpful when you're getting "more unusual" seed for things that can be "hard" to germinate.

They also have a "map" with each plant description to show you where it's "native." All the plants are listed together, so if it's something you're not familiar with you need to be sure you check to see if it's an annual, or what zone it is if it's a perennial. Seeds all seem to be $2.50 a pack, and shipping is $5!

I don't know anything about this company!!! And I don't buy "plants" online--I need to be able to get up close and personal with them first if I'm gonna be spending as much money as plants cost! But I spent quite a while looking over the whole site and it looks like a "good company" to me--for whatever that's worth! I just happened to find it when I was looking for seeds for sweet grass! But as soon as I started looking down their list of "wildflowers (forbs)", I did a: WOW! And I immediately thought of the two of you!

Check it out and see what you think!

https://www.prairiemoon.com/home.php

Skybird

P.S. TR, If you ever want to look for soil in bales, look at or call whatever "real" garden centers there are near you. And if you go in person, don't just look for it, if you don't "see" it, ask if they carry potting soil in bales. If they don't even know what you're talking about they're not a good garden center! (If they seem to need a hint, tell them it's the kind of "bale" that compressed Canadian peat comes in.)

P.P.S Zach, I'm so tired of hearing "news stories" about pot, I just wish the stuff would go extinct!!! Pot is not "news," IMO! I agree with you! I don't care what you do when you're in your own house, but I don't want to be in a haze of smoke--pot OR cigarette! And don't even think of driving a car when or after you're smoking it. And don't make the "edibles" look like CANDY--so little kids want to eat it! How dumb is that! I better stop now, before I really start ranting! Finis!

Zach, I've never heard that little ditty before. I think your mom's stepmother had something there, I don't know if Kansas sucks but I do know Texas blows a lot of hot air.

TLC Nursery here is big, an acreage of greenhouses etc.& big piles of 'soil' way to the north end past the tree nursery in the landscaping part. If they don't have bales, no one does. I'll check it out. I do know they sell gargantuan sizes of perlite, bags as tall as me that weigh zero. Thanks.

The pot issue has an arrogant attitude that comes across which I find creepy. Its a kind of bragging & self satisfied "look how cool we all are" in your face defiance, self promoting cockiness that is hard to take and nauseating. Like they are all so superior and 'free'. It makes me want to smack their arrogant faces to watch & hear them go on about the "victory over stupidity and prudishness". Anyway, thats how it comes across to me.

As intoxicating as this subject is ... let me really hijack things!

∼ So, Really Off Topic ∼

All the way back to the turn of the century ... the 19th to the 20th century. Texasranger, you shouldn't feel you need to talk too much about your location but do you know where El Reno is?

Funniest thing in my family history. From those tough, frontier people about the only one who amounted to anything back then was my grandmother's Uncle Travis. When one branch of the homesteading family left Indiana and homesteaded in Idaho, Uncle Travis went to Oklahoma, instead. He was the editor/publisher of the El Reno newspaper https://goo.gl/maps/th9XM7JfMUL2 .

Now, that's not so funny but while Travis Hensley was there running his El Reno Democrat - Grandmother Pearl from the other side of my family showed up from Texas and married my grandfather in El Reno! They moved back near the Texas border before having a farmyard full of kids and moving to New Mexico - luckily, just prior to the Dust Bowl! (My dad born in OK, raised in NM. Mom was born in Idaho. Of course, they met in California. :o)

Steve

digit, That scene from 'The Grapes of Wrath' popped in my head reading your post, the one when the Jodes finally make it to Californy & stop at that gas station and the owner says he's from Cherokee County, Oklahoma and the kids all get excited...Cherokee County!!!! He says he doesn't want them spreading that around.

Yes I know El Reno, I live in (hate this term) The Metroplex. I was in El Reno a month ago, not that its all that noticeable entering except for the signs on the road.

My grandparents, on both my mom's side & dads, homesteaded close to Nash and Pond Creek (pronounced Pond Crick by the locals) in Grant County, they each had farms up there and I spent much of my childhood up there and on another farm out by Lamont owned by my aunt & uncle. We still own the farm by Nash.

Coincidentally, my moms parents also came from Illinois. My dad's from Indiana. On top of being tough, they said what they thought I'll give them that and they did it quite colorfully with a lot of cuss words.

Oklahoma isn't the most glamorous state but it is very friendly and down to earth. We don't have legalized pot here, heck, we are barely wet after being dry for decades.

digit, I just had a thought. Oklahoma used to be mostly Democrat until LBJ passed the Equal Rights Amendment (a sad comment on our state). Does that paper still exist? Seems its 90% Republican around here now.

No. It's a different paper in that little town ... oh, you said part of the Metroplex. So, that cute central district is just a relic of another era.

Now, Lizbest will be hushing us if we continue off the seed starting thread ... well, I'm collecting snowmelt for the basin in the greenhouse. A tray of Black Gold can go in for a soak tomorrow and some onion seed sown soon after!

Steve

I like Prairie Moon quite a bit, well, I like their selection anyways, never ordered from them. The only thing is, a lot of their plants are more suited to locales much further east, and that get significantly higher rainfall. Some of their stuff also is clearly more geared towards large scale prairie rehabilitation, and confined to a small suburban lot would look more unkempt and "weedy." They also sell most of their plants as dormant bare root rather than potted, so for things that might be really tricky to start, or if one is not the patient type, that's a plus. Not sure if mail order bare root makes any difference to you Skybird, versus mail order potted plants (ex. High County Gardens). I think overall they are a respected company, at least I have not personally heard anything negative about them.

Another one I like is Western Native Seed, out of Coaldale, Colorado. Their website is very slim on the information (most things don't even have pictures, and those that do you have to go to separate place, not fun to navigate). Shortcomings aside, they have a good selection which is geared towards the high plains/Rocky Mountain region rather than the eastern woodland and tallgrass prairie.

A couple local seed companies that are more for the typical home gardener (rather than restoration/super obscure native enthusiast) have surprising selections of things you might not typically find. Botanical Interests out of Broomfield and Beauty Beyond Belief out of Boulder.

"The pot issue has an arrogant attitude that comes across which I find creepy. Its a kind of bragging & self satisfied "look how cool we all are" in your face defiance, self promoting cockiness that is hard to take and nauseating. Like they are all so superior and 'free'. It makes me want to smack their arrogant faces to watch & hear them go on about the "victory over stupidity and prudishness". Anyway, thats how it comes across to me."

Like I said, I find the reputation this has given our state highly embarrassing and the saturation of our local society by narcotic drugs is not only exceptionally annoying but downright dangerous. In keeping with Skybird's effort to keep from going on a tirade, I will also have to stop there. But I will say, I agree 100% with you Skybird. Even as a cigarette smoker I at least make a strong effort to not expose everyone around me to my choices, rather than flaunting it as a badge of honor like I see so many of the "pot heads" doing.

digit, It just hit me while I was fixing dinner, I was thinking of New Castle, I must be brain dead today. El Reno (duh) is a bit further west of Yukon, its the 'Prison Town', not part of the Metroplex. AKA, Stringtown.

Obviously off topic stuff never bothers me and I'm one of the worst of the worst offenders. OT's usually lead into interesting side trips, comments and much more lively discussions, but thats just me. Some people get irritated by it (I know, I've been called on the carpet before on the P. Forum)

I've ordered several seeds from plantsofthesouthwest.com over several years. I like the people there too, very nice on the phone.

I like looking though the Western Native Seed website, have been really tempted but never actually placed an order but came close more than once. A lot of it is alpine but not all so I have to cull through the ones I am not familiar with. Alpine does not do well down here on the flat plains as you can imagine but I still like looking them up online trying to figure out all the ones I'm not familiar with.

Native American Seed, seedsource.com is very responsible toward the environment and are affiliated with the Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower Center at www.wildflower.org/ladybird -- Lady Bird is one of my heros. I use the site all the time to ID plants, its a good source for that & I like supporting the NAS, they are a bit high but its for a good cause. They send a good catalog with interesting articles. Their seeds did very well for me, all of them.

I also like NativeSeeds.org for the xeric choices in wildflowers, shrubs and interesting vegetables that do well in dry climates. I've ordered their seeds in the past and they were generous.

CactusStore.com has interesting native seeds too. I haven't ordered but I've looked over the site plenty of times.

I don't know why but Prairie Moon is not appealing at all, the plants or seeds never tempt me as I run through the site and then finally go elsewhere due to lack of interest after a while of looking at mostly green leafy looking stuff or woodland stuff. Maybe its like you say Zach, its geared more toward eastern parts. Most of it strikes me as not ornamental or for the hard core native person who doesn't care about how it looks, just as long as its a bonafide native within their own immediate vicinity of a 100 mile radius. You know the ones....

First spring with the greenhouse I've been sowing lots of seeds in there, on a heat mat. But the house is unheated so germination on some species has been spotty. Luckily it's only early February so i'm really just undergoing a learning curve.

I'm left to wonder, and I suppose to find out for myself how all the annual vegetables and flowers I want to start this year will fare in the protected microclimate of an unheated greenhouse even if I start them in March there will still be a few overnight freezes and plenty of nights in the low 30s.

I'm imagining (hoping) that between a heat mat and some judicious use of floating row cover within the greenhouse I'll be able to start these plants successfully, but I'll find out later this spring.

Meanwhile I participated in a group seed order from Baker Street and managed to spend nearly $100, even though we're sharing the $3.50 shipping costs. Easy to do, I suppose.

The best advice I can give you is to not start your tomatoes until mid-April. A 4 week old seedling, short and stout, will fare much better planted in late may than a lanky, foot high plant that's been stretching for sun, even for a few weeks.

I'll be starting my onions and leeks tomorrow - today is the new moon - and I've noticed a correlation between the moon and seed germination. These are started so early because they can be "mowed" if they get lanky, and will be planted out in April, as son as the soil isn't mud.

Peppers and eggplant, slow to germinate and slow to grow, will be seeded after the March new moon.

Tomatillos and tomatoes will be sowed after the April new moon.

Too many years, I've been excited and started my seeds too early, and while it took some failures to enforce this - it's true that patience is a virtue!

@mathewgg great advice dear. Tomatoes is the good idea.

I like to start my tomatoes the last week of March. If the tomatoes get too tall, I just trench plant them, which makes for a greater root system.

My hot peppers were planted the first week in February as they take forever to germinate.

Last week of March is when I start tomatoes, too. I put them outside whenever I can throughout April and May.

Hot peppers go in the last week of February (in about 10 days) I don't grow anything SUPER hot, habaneros are the highest I go in the Scoville scale, lol. They usually pop up in 7-10 days.

The superhot usually take 2-4 WEEKS to germinate, even on a hot mat. I have a few babies so far and lots more to germinate. The less hot/sweet peppers will be planted this weekend.

I used to germinate both tomatoes and peppers in peat pellets since it was so easy, but have had much quicker germination using soilless medium. My favorite is Light Warrior.

Zach - if you'd ever want to try different peppers/tomatoes I almost always seem to have an abundance. Either seeds or plants. OR anyone else that lives in/near Denver or the suburbs.

that's really nice to hear @tomatoz1

I've only got room for four flats indoors, so I've got to time everything precisely. I can't start tomatoes or tomatillos until the two flats of onions and leeks have been planted out, otherwise they have no room under the lights. For me, 4-6 week old tomato transplants are perfectly timed, planting them out at the end of May.

I've thought about getting rid of some houseplants to make room for two more flats on my light rack setup...but then again, no way!

So last year, I put my peppers out when they had only three sets of true leaves, and they were promptly destroyed by hail the following day. I could only cry, and laugh, and cry a little more. Resisting the temptation to pull them out and rush to O'Tooles for new plants, I left them. And left them. And left them. And ended up with the bushiest, most productive pepper plants I've ever grown. Now, I'm not saying I want a repeat - in fact it would be nice to *finally* have a year in Englewood without hail, but I'll definitely be topping them as soon as possible if Mother Nature doesn't do it for me.

Speaking of hail....anyone got some juju to keep the hail away this year?

@mattew its really sad to hear about your story. I am feeling bad to read your post. sorry again. :)

Mahonia haematocarpa (Desert Holly) seeds have been in the fridge since November and one has germinated (!) and is now in the south window along with deep red celosia, Ornamental grass, SW native astralagus, mystery native plant that gets a cone type flower (not echinacea) from a native growing by the State Capitol, SW native Prince's Plume, West Texas Grass Sage. Agastache cana & Echinacea. Its getting pretty green in there, plants are doing great. We have to do things a lot earlier down here to beat the hot temps setting in. You guy's spring is a lot more 'springlike' than ours. Down here we have two seasons. Summer and not summer.

"it would be nice to *finally* have a year in Englewood without hail"

Unless you plan on moving to an Englewood outside of Colorado, that's a mighty tall order, my friend. I had the same thing happen to me last year, too. Mine were a little bigger than yours, but talk about crestfallen. I also had a basil plant the year before that was reduced to a single twig with no leaves, it bounced right back and was as big a basil as I could ever want.

"You guy's spring is a lot more 'springlike' than ours"

I wouldn't say that 75 degrees at noon and 20 degrees and snowing at 6 pm is "spring like" TR haha.

But Zack, its still winter....remember? Spring is going be hot this year I fear, we are gonna get close to 90 in parts tomorrow and its currently 67. Unbelievable. The fires are horrendous. 50 mph winds with very little moisture. I had to water today and I cut down my giant sacaton grasses. We desperately need rain.

Are you saying you got that kind of drastic weather shift in a day in Colorado? Are you guys getting this weirdly warm weather that far west?

I didn't mean now, haha. I'm talking about a typical day in March, April, or yes, even early May here on the Front Range, lol.

Fire advisories are up here, winds have been howling pretty non stop all week and no moisture to be seen here either. Still though, 72 degrees this afternoon (1 degree warmer than the record set in 1930) I find it hard to complain....

We definitely DO get that kind of weather, TR! Check out this thread from just a couple weeks ago, the end of January. It wasn't quite 75º, but it went from 67º to SNOWING in a few hours! It was just a couple days ago that the snow from THAT storm finally melted off all the way!

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/3653748/67%C2%BA-today-its-snowing?n=13

I had 75º in my backyard today! Gratefully we're NOT expecting SNOW tonite--but, BOY, are the winds ever HOWLING! Have been all day. My house is creaking and groaning! Apparently we had a couple fires up this-a-way today too, though I didn't hear exactly where they were yet.

The winds are supposed to be dying down again tomorrow. Hope they're right!

Skybird

Sounds like we are all sitting under the same weather system, it looked huge on the weather map but I don't know if you guys are mountain, higher altitude, how that works etc and if that makes a difference, I figured the plains part was similar. Yes, its hard to complain even with the wind. Its supposed to be less wind tomorrow here too and next week drops back down into the 50's.

Speaking of weather! One of the TV weathermen just said that there was an "unofficial" report of a 148 mph wind gust on Monarch Pass! Guess I'll quit bitchin' about what I'm getting here right now--tho it sure ain't pretty--or quiet!!!

Years ago, I spent a month in Colorado. I traveled somewhere new everyday (except one), because I wanted to see the state. It's all high, TR. That often makes for the wide temperature range. You know, it's asking quite a bit from the plants to put up with that.

I traveled through Gunnison 3 times and imagined myself living there. I had sense enough to remember my first experience. After spending a morning in Gunnison, I went on to Monarch Pass and stopped for a picnic dinner. I couldn't eat! I was sick from the altitude. It was only from getting on down the hill a ways that I began feeling better. Too high!! Gunnison was NOAA's coldest weather station in the contiguous US, the other day.

Here, it isn't so high. Exceptional warmth or cold is only about 20 degrees from normal. Change usually doesn't come quickly or like a yoyo. It's a drag, especially in February.

I will put some bok choy seed in a cookie box, this morning. Those plants will drive me to set up the hoop house in about another month so that I can get them under that cover and out of the container. Driven by Bok Choy, I'm

Steve

Zach, I'm definitely not planning to move to another Englewood anytime soon!

But, I am adapting to this new weather pattern, though I don't like it. Between 1998 and 2012 I lived and gardened in the Denver neighborhoods of Whittier, Wash Park, and Baker. I recall getting pea sized hail in Baker back in the late 90's which stripped the blooms from my delphiniums, but I never got hit with it in Wash Park or Whittier. I suppose it could have been coincidence, but I have suspected that the slightly lower elevation in central Denver protected me from the large hail that has pounded my Englewood yard three years running.

And it's so unpredictable, you know? It comes in May, June, July - even September.

I need one of those Sunsetter retractable awnings (lol)....for the entire yard!

LOL!!! Yeah, it’s ALL
high, Digit! Most of us posting here
right now are along the Front Range, which is on the plains, TR. Denver, the Mile High City, is at
5,280’! And, going west, it just goes UP
from here!

Methinks you definitely wouldn’t want to live in Gunnison,
Digit! It’s often the coldest place in
Colorado! Before they took the official
weather station out of it, Fraser, Colorado used to always be the coldest place
in Colorado—and most of the time in the lower 48. Fraser, way back then, was called “Ike’s
Icebox,” and “the Nation’s Icebox.”
Eisenhower used to “vacation” there!
(Mamie lived here as a child, and was married to Ike in Denver.) After Fraser “shut down,” Bemidji, MN claimed
that honor for a while, but the weathermen don’t seem to make such a “big deal”
out of “the coldest place” anymore.

If you were here for a whole month you should have gotten
over any altitude sickness in about a week.
Monarch’s 11,312’, so it is kind of high, but most peoples’ bodies
adjust within the first several days.
Funny story—I think! Many years
ago when my in-laws (at the time) came to Denver to visit us—from (pretty dern
close to sea level) Pennsylvania, we took them for a drive out to Aspen and
then drove over Independence Pass coming back to Denver. My father-in-law “didn’t like” being out in
the mountains because he always had “altitude sickness”—he never would admit
that it was because he was scared of driving (being in a car) out there! Now I can’t say the he didn’t really have some
degree of altitude sickness, but he felt REALLY bad when were up on
Independence which is 12,096’. The
“funny” part came up when we got over the pass and “all the way down to” Twin
Lakes on the eastern side! We were on
FLAT ground there, and he was feeling MUCH better! Ok!
Twin Lakes is at 9,200’! He
didn’t know that—and we didn’t tell him that!
It was flat, so he didn’t have “altitude sickness” anymore! Maybe his
particular “altitude sickness” should have been called “mountain road steep
drop-off sickness!”

And, yeah, much of the reason for our extreme temp swing is
because of the changes in altitude.
Especially here along the front range where the mountains can “mess
with” both the winds and the precip coming from the west. The WINDS we had yesterday are called Chinooks
here—“warm winds.” And that’s why it got
so warm yesterday. The Chinooks ZOOM down
on the Front Range bringing all that nice warm air to us, but the “warm” comes
with a price since we get the WIND which can cause problems for plants/trees,
and also, as we had yesterday, high fire danger since Chinooks are also DRY
winds. It’s still a little breezy out
today, but MUCH better than is was yesterday—and cooler!

The reason the 148 mph gust on Monarch yesterday was
“unofficial” is because NOAA didn’t really “trust” their equipment and they
were going to send somebody out to check to see if it was working right! Haven’t heard anymore today!

I think we’re sorta taking this thread OT, but it seems to
have pretty much run its course anyway!

Skybird

P.S. Mathew, I think
I need one of those retractable awnings just for the veggie garden! Well, and maybe for my perennial beds!

Yes, we've run off-topic. Again ...

I know we have talked about elevation, before. Wikipedia says that the lowest point in Colorado is the Arikaree River at the Kansas border at 3,317 feet.

Shoot, I've never gardened higher than 2,500 feet ... about 1,000 miles north of the Arikaree. It was okay but I didn't have much fun with varieties. (Reminds me, I need to put my tomato list on RMG!) I never came up with a good idea on the alpine tree line hereabouts. It seems that the northern Cascades has more attention but I assume that it would be higher there because of the proximity of the Pacific and it would be lower in Montana, for example. Wikipedia lists New Hampshire at only 4,400 feet but NH is also only at 44°N latitude. Boise is down at about that far north.

Steve

going out to get a picture of onion sprouts!

The 148 mph wind gust
on Monarch was confirmed! (by NOAA) Wow!
Sure glad I wasn’t driving up there at the time! That’s the highest wind I ever remember
hearing about here in Colorado—outside of tornados, of course!

Timberline in Colorado ranges between about 10,500’ in some
places up to about 11,500’ in others, depending on the exposure and other
“local” conditions. I’m always amazed
when I hear of tree lines below 8,000’ or 9,000’! Being used to “out here,” it just seems like
there ought to be trees growing on anything, for sure, that’s below 5,000’! And I know there’s “science” behind why they
don’t—but it still doesn’t make sense to me!
I mean, what the hey, I LIVE above 5,000’, and if there can be “other
places” at 5,000’ where trees won’t grow, how come we have them here??? Don’t try to explain it to me scientifically,
Digit! I’m not gonna believe it anyway!

;-)

Skybird

Skybird, there are arctic tree lines.

I became used to Colorado's high altitude. Monarch was my first pass - it was a beautiful afternoon but I was sick!

I start off towards Kansas at one point. Stopped for a slice of watermelon. It was a blistering hot day and I questioned my sanity! Turned around and headed up into the hills above Peublo.

Steve

Well, if Monarch was right after you got here, yeah, I'm not surprised you weren't feeling very good when you got up there. Altitude sickness is real! Some people get it and some don't, and I don't think anybody knows why! But I'm still pretty sure my ex-father-in-law had a case of mountainitis rather than altitude sickness. Sometimes when we'd be at a pretty low altitude, but surrounded by (those scary) mountains, he'd be feeling really bad, and other times when we'd be up at 7 or 8 thousand feet, but it would "look flat," he'd be feeling just fine. It was kind of interesting--and fun--to watch how he was gonna be "feeling" at any particular time, and we were careful to not mention the altitude whenever he was "feeling fine."

You "start off towards Kansas" and wind up in "the hills above Pueblo!" Didn't you have at least SOME little bit of an idea which way you were gonna go when you got down here? I mean! Start east! Wind up west! Huh??? Where did you go from there??? North, south, east, or west?

Skybird

P.S. Do you know which direction you're going now? ;-D

Skybird - z5, Denver, Colorado said: "Where did you go from there??? North, south, east, or west?"

Yes.

No, I didn't try east, again ... Never have made it to Kansas. Don't need anyone expressing opinions on that. I know I'm a bump on a log.

Where am I now? In the Lazyboy, of course ... it's dark in the South Window!

Steve

Liz, I hope you have nice tomatoes going by now. :)

This year I had great success starting seeds indoor following nctomatoman's method ( ~ 100% germ rate). I use Promix HP for sowing, and transplant into SuperSoil or MG after seedlings are 1 month old.

The tomato seeds start coming up in 3 days with the shallow planting method.