Winter Sowing doesn't give you the earliest tomatoes, and it isn't meant to either. WSing your toms gives you seedlings far hardier than those started indoors.

If you want early tomatoes you need ones with short DTMs.

at transplant, in comparison because initially WS seedlings are smaller on the top, but of course with their magnificient root systems, you find that WS toms usually catch up in top size to indoor grown or purchased tranplants in a few short weeks, if anything they are maybe about ten days later at setting fruit.

If you visit the WS forum you'll find a lost more people willing to talk about their experiences simply because there are a lot more people who WS their toms, lol.

T

Agree with Trudi. It is easier in some ways and results in great seedlings but it won't make them fruit earlier - that is variety dependent.

A couple of previous discussions:

Winter Sowing vs. Traditional seed starting trial

WS tomato comparison

Dave

Thank you Dave!

Hello Mayland. That first link Dave posted is one I started. If you follow my experiment you'll see that the indoor started plant beat the WS plant to first ripe by a measly 2 days! Just like Trudi says the WS plants catch up and are nice tough plants. I like tough plants and I hate the sissies! LOL! My advice? Do your own experiment. Try some each way!

Trudi, quick question. Like last year, I'm setting out my WSers on Feb.2. Groundhog day. Why? It worked well last year! LOL Anyway, you know those seed starting trays with the clear plastic domes and either 50 or 70 some plastic cells that sell everywhere for $4 to $7? Can I cut some slits in the plastic dome and use that to WS? How many slits per seed tray? I'm WSing zinnias, cosmos and some dahlia seed. Should I use a seperate tray for my WSed tomato seeds or can they go in with the flower seed? I know I won't get all the cells to germinate but I don't care if even half germinate. I got lots of these trays and it saves seperating out the seedlings when they are so tiny. Advice?

I always have tomatoes around June first or earlier. Here is what I do...I start 4th of July and SunSugar in the house in Feb. and plant out around the 15th of March in Wall-O-Waters (I know some people don't believe/use them). There are some issues though. First, you have to understand that if the transplants get too big, then they will come out the top and be vulnerable. Secondly, when you remove the WOW the plants will be weak and need immediate staking. Finally, what you are doing primarily is getting them well established before you would normally plant them out. You aren't going to see miraculous production until it warms up. Later varieties like Mortgage Lifter, etc will not produce earlier and you can't shoot for any of the big guys at all. You have to settle for the golfball sized and smaller early tomatoes and be satisfied with that. By and large, they still beat the heck out of store bought and it is fun to mess around with.

Dave's second link is to my comparison post. I had some really slow germination (three batches) and although the plants reached a reasonable size they were later. I could have had a good crop of green tomatoes from the last batch; but, I left them for a light frost that was heavy. Many didn't keep well. I'm happy with green tomatoes and many will ripen if brought indoors. Some were planted at the two leaf stage in June -- not much time to grow. Also, our summer was unusually long -- fall often starts in August. As a proof of concept, WS worked well.

TOMATOMIKE I always have tomatoes around June first or earlier.
Here is what I do...I start 4th of July and SunSugar in the house in Feb. and plant out around the 15th of March in Wall-O-Waters

i DON'T GET IT

Hi BigDaddy!

You can use those trays sdctioned trays but do pay attention to their moisture level--on a sunny day those little cells can dry out fast. You could use a potting soil with moisture control--that does help a lot. For the top, take an old phillips screwdriver and heat it over the stove till it gets red hot, then stab in holes about every four inches. You need to add drainage to the base tray too but I would just put two inch-ling slits on the long sides and one slit per narrower side.

Dickie, what don't you get? WS is easier than falling off a log. And it's cheap as dirt too ;-) If you want to learn about Winter Sowing visit the forum here or go to WinterSown.Org, which is a USDA/NAL/AgNIC website, and read the FAQs. Take me up on any of the free seed offers there too, the Tomato SASE originated several years back when folks told me you couldn't WS tomatoes--so I had to give them the seeds to try it. Well, that worked out in my favor ;-)

One other thing, at the WS forum, if you say you're new, you'll be surprised by the welcome you get--Winter Sowers LOVE beginners. They'll even hold your hand through the season if you need them to.

T--who is in the middle of preparing several thousand packs of tomato seeds to go to specific heres and specific theres. The WS season is upon us and my tomatoes are HOT! Hehehe, LOL.

After about 8 years of failing at growing tomatoes in CO, I was certain that I needed to start seeds in Jan for mid-March planting, with wall o waters, to have ripe fruit by early June. (It seems that if I can pick ripe fruit in June, my plants seem to continue to put out just enough ripe fruit through the hot months, with crazy production in the fall.)

I think 2009 proved me wrong.

I started some seeds in mid-Jan for mid-March planting (with wows) and started more seeds mid-Feb to early March for mid-May planting. A mid-Feb germination/mid-May planting (Peach Garden - rose) produced ripe fruit before any other in my garden; although dtm said it shouldn't have. This totally blew away my earlier conclusion that winter sowing wouldn't work for my tomatoes.

Mid-May plantings could easily be winter sowed. Heck, even mid-March plantings could be winter sowed with the proper conditions to create a sprout early enough. MAYBE - winter sowing, direct sown, with a wall o water?? Maybe WS with a bit more then wow protection; but then is it still WSing??

The experiment is calling...

mayland

one can get earlier tomatoes even on later maturing varieties sooner by ensuring the soil is warm enough when setting out and setting out larger plants.

one can warm the soil some by keeping it dry and/or covering it with plastic several weeks before planting.

Tomato roots planted in or limited by cold soil will just sit there. It's important to either wait until the soil has warmed or warm the entire bed with plastic ahead of time. When one grows under a Wall'o'water or a milk jug, root growth will be limited to the micro-climate them underneath them where the heat is.

If one sets out bigger plants grown in larger pots into soil that is warm, one can get earlier crops than the gimmicky methods.

Setting out larger tomato plants with more actively growing roots is something Elliot Coleman covers in his books and videos to get a jump on earliness. This article explains it further Big Pots - Early Tomatoes.

Basically start seeds a few weeks sooner and then progressively transplant from small pots (2-4") to larger (6" or 3-5gal pots).

Trudi, thanx for the tips! I may have forgotten to add drain holes in the bottom seed flat! I'll try the seed flat idea me and you just came up with plus the normal community containers I used last year. I got lots of seeds and lots of containers and this sure is easier than babying and fanning and lighting and then hardening off a bunch of indoor weakling seedlings! :)

Mulio, I read what Randy Gardner said in the link but you also mentioned Elliot Coleman. On his old TV show, Gardening Naturally, with Barbara Damrosch, he said a SIX week old tomato seedling is better than an EIGHT week seedling. Did he change his mind in later years? I have the show on video where he advises a SIX week old start...

No Mule, they don't just sit there.

If you're just observing tops you get that impression, but germinated in cold soil they grow in cold soil--cold soil. They're growing roots. So they don't just sit there, but are growing roots. A plant isn't just what's above ground, it's what's below ground that is so very important to survival.

Why don't you give it try this year. It simple, make a flat, fill it with at least 3" of potting soil, moisten the soil, toss some seeds on top and rub them in. Cover the flat with something clear, have it a couple of inches headroom above the soil. Poke holes in the lid. Make sure there's drainage. Shove it outside for the winter--stash it where it will be safe from critters and people. Wait and watch.

T

PS, milk jugs are just about the easiest flat to make. And oh, if you want, I'll even give you the seeds to try ;-)

Gosh, this forum moves fast! Thank you everyone for the great replies, this is really helpful. Digdirt, thank you for linking to the 2 previous comparisons, those were great.

Sounds like I can either WS or start inside then, with similar fruiting times. I will probably WS because I've found the perennial seedlings that I've WS'd before to be so tough. I havent heard of WOWs before and will read up on them.

Mulio, thank you for the advice about bigger plants and warmer soil. I will definitely cover the soil to heat it. I can transplant my WS seedlings into bigger pots so they can grow on a bit before planting out.

Bigdaddy, I WS'd last year in those trays that hold the individual peat "pots" (the ones that are small discs that you expand in water). they don't have the 3" of soil recommended for the WS method, but i found them easy to work with and easy to plant out in spring. I put 2-3 seeds per disc. I had to water carefully once the weather warmed up but i kept them in a shady spot, and it worked out fine.

Trudi, I read the Ws forum often but havent posted too much there. Its a great forum with loads of help, I wasnt sure whether to post this question here or there but figured i would get good advice on either forum!

Thanks everyone!

Bigdaddy

Eliot does recommend normally planting 6 week transplants over 8 weeks ones (plants in 4" pots). However for trying to get a jump on the season he recommended the potting up method. He was setting out 5 gal sized plants in the garden. To do this you start a few weeks earlier and move the plants into larger pots which don't limit root growth until setting out. This was on one of the episodes of "Gardening Naturally". 5 gal pots can take up considerable space when hardening off. They may also need an extra week or two (10 weeks) over a 1 gal pot size (8 weeks) to get roots up to size depending on the weather. But the extra root growth that hasn't been limited is the reason you can can get jump on earliness. I also recommend cold treatment of seedlings to encourage more early flowers.

Using milk jugs or WOWs are really nothing more than what used to be called cloches. Because of the nature of tomato plants, (native to sub tropical) their root growth will be limited to the region of soil warming as I have tried to point out below.

{{gwi:1400227}}

Tomato root growth is limited in temperatures of 60°F and impaired at 50°F. That's why it's best to wait or warm a large area of soil before planting out.

Physiologically top growth and root growth are closely balanced unless there is a problem. So what you see above is closely in balance with what is below. Root growth and top growth are stimulated or inhibited by each other through the production and translocation of hormones in their growing points. So if top growth is limited, root growth will be too (and vice versa).

Essentially what happens in the creation of a limited warm zone is an area where the roots will grow, but limit themselves within because of the surrounding cold. This can stunt a plant similar to one in a container becoming rootbound.

Not limiting root growth is the key to planting out in bigger pots for earlier production. Transplants should be moved up to a larger size just as new roots begin to touch the sides of the container they are growing in. This reduces transplant shock and stunting growth. When you stunt growth you alter the metabolism and hormonal flow and it takes awhile for the plant to recover. So keep moving them up, giving the roots more room and you can reduce that issue and get earlier tomatoes. {{gwi:1400228}}

You draw a great milkjug mule!

You should see what we do with a cheesepuff tub, lol.

Hehehe

I wonder how deeply the gimmicky methods warm the soil; since I'm all for them:))

For my zone, it seems like 12-24" would be enough depth to get the roots deep enough to find natural warmth.

depth of heating is dependent on various environmental factors of the soil and also having to do with quality of the light, how different incoming wavelengths penetrate the covering material and how well that material holds the heat (outgoing longwave radiation).

Clear plastic mulch which allows for lots of solar radiation to penetrate only heats the first 2" of soil about 8-14°F and 6-9°F at 4".

so then, on a full sun bed, would a black or red plastic sheet do the trick better then clear?
there's also heavy dark brown tarps and they have a silver side on the reverse. I wonder if they would, silver side down, reflect serious heat into the ground...

Clear heats the most.

Red and black are about the same.

from the Center for Plasticulture
"Soil temperatures under black plastic mulch during the daytime are generally 5° F higher at a 2-inch depth and 3° F higher at a 4-inch depth compared to those that of bare soil.

White, coextruded white-on-black or silver reflecting mulches can result in a slight decrease in soil temperature -2° F at 1-inch depth or -0.7° F at a 4-inch depth compared to bare soil,"

I think you might have meant reflective side down. I dont know. I guess it depends on the nature of the reflective material.

Mulio, thanx for taking the time with your detailed response to my question...

I said before that there are those that do not use/believe in Wall-o-Water. Also, I do not want to debate them, but they are NOT "cloches". I could not make it simpler. You have to use the correct tomato (the earliest ones typically tolerate cooler soils)and transplant them outside into the W-O-W not too early and not too late for your location. Because they insulate with water columns, they add a new dimension to the "cloch". I use different types of conventional cloches to protect from renegade frosty mornings and to regulate sun exposure. W-O-W I use for about 6 weeks and then remove them. I have tomatoes blooming in them sometimes when I remove them, which is consequently about the time I set out my main tomatoes. I could not do that with a conventional cloch. As for those blooms, because of the varieties I do in W-O-W, I do not get blossom drop because of temperature.

I acknowledge the difference on the WOWs having water and understand the chemistry/physics behind it.

But have you read the evidence based research on them comparing them to other methods done over multiple seasons? Their response for earliness and protection was found to be inconsistent and in some seasons they worked as well as other techniques such as a ring of black tarp paper, wax paper hot caps or plastic bottles.

Their benefit is more to the air temp than the soil temp. When using WOW's it is still advised to preheat the soil with plastic before planting out to encourage growth and earliness. Again this is due to the limited area of warming of the root zone.

For years, I've planted with WOWs in mid-March. I lay the black plastic etc.

I have never paid attention to dtm. I choose varieties that I want to eat or can in June:))

Last year was the first time that I planted in mid-March with WOWs and planted without protection in mid-May.

For example, I planted Black Cherry and Sugar Lump both in mid-March and mid-May. The seeds were started at the same time, mid-Jan (stupid, I know). They gave ripe fruit at the same time. Some plants that were planted in WOWs nearly failed to produce ripe fruit before frost. These plants received less sun, and we had a goofy season.

SO many factors affecting the qwest for the perfect tomato..

SO many gimmicks too. ;)

Raybo had an interesting idea for starting tomatoes early using his Earthtainer with cold frame and an aquarium heater.

Here is a link that might be useful: Link to IncuTainer Thread

I will be trying some of the gimmicks (methods). Thanks for the discussion. Walls of water work for me because we have warm weather with cold spells. The walls of water enable the plants to survive the few cold days. I remove them as soon as the cold threats are over and I only use them for a few plants because they are kind of a pain to manage. I can see why they might not be convenient for people who grow many plants. I will try clear plastic to warm the soil and winter sowing some of the tomato seeds I saved. Because of my erratic weather I have used winter sowing only for plants that can take the cold. It would be nice to start some more outside so I will try it on tomatoes to see for myself.

I have no idea how to make the filling of wows easier, but I use bamboo (2' lengths) to create a tee pee inside the wow. I have never had one collapse on my poor plants, after using the bamboo. I also tie the top shut for snow storms.

I think I have about 30 wows now - Walmart fall clearance, $3 per 3 pack. My back aches after filling them all. I do treasure the filling days when it's warm and sunny. My son is nearly 5 now and I'm thinking I can bribe him to assist.

Spread WOW around 5 gallon bucket. THEN fill tubes with hose. A couple drops of bleach in each tube. Remove bucket. Easy.

Also use Duct Tape to tape the bail (handle) of the pail to the side first so it won't come down and strike your plant when you lift the pail off.

Lavender Lass did you find Trudi's offer and ways to warm the soil on this thread?

Helen, we don't warm the soil but instead go for germination and transplant into cold soil which develops a storng and hardy root system. Later on when the soil does warm and days are longer the plant tops catch up in size to store-bought or indoor-started transplants, but the roots are still growing with that cold-growth head-start. Hardy transplants is what it's all about for WSers.

In zone 4 I think she may need all the warmth she can get. She may need some magic "gimmicks" in her climate. I am so sympathetic to someone in zone 4 because I'm getting a sample of it and don't like it much.

You could try putting the planting beds on the sunniest border of th house and painting the wall with reflective metallic paint. Shine on!