Depending on your family's needs, you could turn the laundry room into a laundry closet and gain three feet or so in the kitchen. We have a laundry closet for our family of four and it works well for us; I have three levels of shelves above side-by-side machines to sort clothes and organize stuff.

What are the aisle dimensions around your island and which side and end(s) are planning on putting seating?

Second the laundry closet idea! That is a great idea .

You could save your kitchen table that way by expanding your kitchen and island in that direction.

@benjesbride - Interesting idea! We had considered either moving or re-purposing the laundry, but not shrinking it. That would open the area a bit and give more space/options on what is currently the fridge wall. How else could we use that space?

@practigal - Here's calcs showing walkway on either side of the island at 36" each:

Here's the planned pic including island cab location and island seating idea:

sorry, calcs didn't come through:

Total width = 140"

Oven wall cabinet depth = 26"

Island depth = 42"

walkway size, either side of island = (total - cab - island)/2 = 36"

Thanks!

from

Starcraft custom builders kitchen design rules illustrated

36" for a major walkway to the family room is too tight with seating there. Try to expand your kitchen into the reduced laundry room area instead and see if that works. This preserves your large seating area . You may not need a much larger kitchen, but you do need a better layout and much more prep area. Hoping the layout gurus will take a gander.

@scrappy25 - Yep, that looks about right with our trial configuration. Our 44" wide table acting as an island with thick back chairs (leaving about a 34" walk way) has us sliding past people seated at the table. This is one of our concerns... Right now, we either scoot in to let someone past, or go around the vanity to get to the FR.

Not sure how we would lay things out with a shrunken laundry and/or expanding into the dining room.

@scrappy25 - Also, big thanks for posting the link to the design rules. Excellent resource!

Your aisles just aren't wide enough for an island with seating--barely wide enough for an island without seating, IMO. The island is also too close to the fridge. I
have the barest minimum in my kitchen, so I know of which I speak.
Whether or not you have seating on the island, I wouldn't put the
cooktop on the island with such narrow aisles. Sorry, I know that's not
what you want to hear.

If you put the clean-up sink on the
island, and put the cooktop on the outside wall, the sink will be close
enough to the coffee center to be used for a water source. The small
sink could then be switched to the corner between the fridge and
cooktop, with the ovens beside the fridge. If you never have help in the
kitchen, the small sink can be omitted, with main prep on the island
across from the cooktop. Landing for the ovens would be in the areas
where I have the words 'prep' drawn. The DW would be out of the work
zone, and dishes could be kept in drawers under the coffee center (no
plumbing to interfere). If you're replacing that window anyway, you
might want to put the pantries side-by-side, and keep dishes in drawers
underneath.

In the plan on the left, I made the island
shallower, with no seating, but with enough of a space behind the sink
to catch spills. You could keep a stool tucked under the right side, if
you need a seat while prepping, or if someone is hanging out while you
work.

Click to enlarge:

Good kitchen planning info:

Buehl's kitchen planning thread.
NKBA guidelines.

@mama goose, thanks for the feedback. On island distance to fridge, we have lived with it at the 30-32" distance for 16 years. It is close, but we have figured out how to live with it. Obviously, with the redo, we want to make things better and that is something we missed. With the space we have, what minimum distance would you use - walkway at 36" or work isle at 42"? Thanks!

On the island without seating, I think that's a non-starter but helps drive some of our layout priorities. We need room for up to 10. I think that gives 4 options:

1 - island in the right picture with seating, use shallow stools and slide by (maybe shave a couple inches off island width for slightly larger walkways, currently best/most likely option),

2 - no island and keep kitchen table (don't think this is a real option),

3 - island with no seating, convert dining room back to dining room, condense office into office/conference space (don't think this is a real option, looking for combined cooking/gathering/eating space in kitchen)

4 - Redo layout, bump into skinny'ed down laundry and or dining room. If bumping into DR, need to separate from office/conference space in LR (maybe walled with some double french pocket doors?). Real interested in what this could look like...

Any layout thoughts on #4?

thanks for the ideas and the additional links! more reading to do...

Here's a very rough idea

I like the idea of bumping into the laundry area--a lot--because
that, and moving the door to the office, will give you more room to fit
the cooktop on the perimeter (I haven't really explored that yet). But
bumping into the laundry won't really give you more space for an island
with seating.

If at all possible, especially if it's an expensive
remodel and you want your money's worth, try to follow the accepted
guidelines. They are tried and true. Having said that, I've been in a
lot of kitchens, including my own, where they don't always work, or
where they can be stretched, and still produce a workable, even
enjoyable kitchen. My DIY remodel cost a few (yes, ap 3) thousand
dollars, so I don't have much money invested. My aisles are narrow by
any standards, but the island does not completely overlap either the
fridge or range, so there is step-back room for each. The DW opens into
the long aisle. There is a 36" walkway from one end of the kitchen to
the other, between the island and other cabinets, but those cabinets are
vintage, with 10" deep uppers. There is plenty of shoulder space, which
does not exist with a solid wall. Oh, and my DW is between my sink and
range, and only 13" from the perpendicular counter--couldn't change it,
doesn't keep me from enjoying my kitchen. So now you know all my secrets
;), but I urge you to rethink seating at your island.

Here's a
quick drawing of how the enlarged work space might be arranged. With no
cooktop or sink, the island can be narrower, and if it's built like a
table, you could have seating. You could use standard upper cabinets for
the island base, for storage (yellow outline). As you can see (red
outline) turning the island won't work, unless you make it only 48"
wide. In that case you might consider making it the width of your table
and using it in place of a card table when you need extra seating.

I've
read in many threads that sitting lined up at an island is not
conducive to conversation, and I can't imagine that it's as comfortable
as eating at a dining table either.

@scrappy25 and @mama goose - I really appreciate your time and ideas! I need a little bit of time to absorb them...

I'm thinking both of those may still feel cramped and not quite meet space guidelines.

I took some time to virtually take out some walls and add measures if we shrunk laundry and bumped into the DR to use as a starting point -

I'll try to plug in some layouts but not sure how it will go!

What if you used the conference space when entertaining large groups? Separate it from the office with pocket doors to shield your guests from the office view.

Or what if you put the coffee bar in the office then use an expandable dining table in your breakfast area when you entertain large groups. I like this idea better because it keeps guests out of your work area.

Just so you know, the recommended guidelines for seating are as follows:

Counter-height (36" off the finished floor):

• Seating Overhang: A minimum of 15" of clear knee/leg space.
• Linear space: At least 24" per diner, more if people are large

Bar-height (42" off the finished floor):

• Seating Overhang: A minimum of 12" of clear knee/leg space.
• Linear space: At least 24" per diner, more if people are large

Table-height (30" off the finished floor):

• Seating Overhang: A minimum of 18" of clear knee/leg space.
• Linear space: At least 24" per diner - note that there has been some discussion about revising this recommendation to 30" for table-height.

Skimping on seating overhang means:

1. Visitors are uncomfortable b/c they can't sit "normally" - they either have to lean far over or twist around or "straddle" the cabinets to try to get to the counter
2. Bodies stick farther out into the aisle so you really aren't gaining any aisle space - the same amount of space is used, it's just filled with uncomfortable visitors!

I have friends with a 12" overhang - I find it very uncomfortable to sit there for more than a few short minutes ...my DH never sits there (nor does my friend's DH) b/c it's too shallow. If you, your entire family, and all your friends are below average in height, you might be able to get away with less than 15". (I wish we had done 18" at our peninsula.)

The recommendations are there for a reason, they're not random #s pulled out of the air.

Would moving the Powder Room be within your budget and skill set?

Give us an inch, we'll take your office. ;)

GW discussions--counter in front of low window.

One solution to low windows.

I took a stab at a quick and dirty layout bumping into DR and shrinking the laundry. It could use some real help! Much more space around the same size island. I could probably squeeze a few more inches by snugging up the laundry from 39" to 36". This also changed from a cooktop+wall+MW to a range. Probably would do a MW drawer in the island somewhere. I don't think we are married to any set of appliances. The kitchen nook could house a cafe table or sofa or both/other, and fits well with our hang out area vision. Based on WifeD's enthusiastic feedback, I think this is the new front runner. Thoughts?

Other things I'm pondering with this layout:

It would be nice to fit some windows along the left/range wall somehow.

Am I being near sighted by ruling out moving the laundry and using that space for pantry/other? If so, extend the pantry into space marked Pantry cab? or the other way and do pantry cabs instead of a built in? Would require new gas, elec, plumbing, vent to second floor - probably more than I'm wanting to tackle right now.

Could the island be an L shape and come down a couple feet towards the coffee bar for more group seating?

@buehl - thanks for the seating specs. Our current mini-island has about 11.5" overhang and only our kids use it, not nearly enough. I've got the island sized with the 15" overhang in mind and think that fits (42" total width). On the length, I think I have one too many seats along the back for the 12' section. Good catch - will probably need to tweak the cabinet run length or right side overhang or both.

Great idea on the Powder Room, we had considered moving it but the HVAC vent, plumbing stack, water heater vent, main water feeds to upstairs and two hot air feeds all go through the surrounding walls. That came off of the list pretty quickly. Similar line of reasoning for not expanding it a little bit.

@mama goose - looks like we were headed down a similar path. I like your reach in pantry and the MW/Snack corner. I selected a pantry cabinet instead of the reach in to try and leave it a bit more open but not sure if that will give us enough space. Hmmm...

On the windows, we are replacing them as a part of this remod anyway. With the new layout, we would probably swap the planned DR window and nook window so the new DR would be above the counter height. Thanks for the pointers for alternatives though!

How to you envision using the island seating for 10 people? Maybe I missed it but is there another dining table for dinners? For large groups I would much prefer to be at a table so that we can sit and converse across from each other not in a big line - that just seems really awkward. I also think it's just so much more comfortable having a table for actual dining. Definitely go with the expansion plan if you want that much island seating. Windows on either side of the range would be nice. I think an "L" shaped island would be weird.

@lharpie and others - Thanks and I appreciate the challenging questions!

I guess if you do something the same way for a long enough time, it no longer seems weird. Now that I'm looking at the island configuration, it's just like the one I grew up with. We wrapped around it and sometimes sat in front of the cabinets with no leg space if there were a bunch of us. So I'm looking at it from that perspective. I think what lharpie is bringing up is a great point - can we do it a better way? Great Q.

Since we have been in our "practice" configuration with a large countertop height table butted up next to our mini island, the family seems to gather and congregate there more. We will probably still go with an island layout similar to what is there now, but make sure we can seat 2 on the cabinet side, 1 on the end, and then 2 on the other side for a daily family configuration. Maybe we will shrink the overall length of it though. The nook area may get slated for an expandable table that can go from 3x5' to 3x10' for more formal dining. More to ponder on...

Since you are changing windows, and would like some on the left wall,
this plan preserves the window in the bump-out (it can be eliminated if
that doesn't affect the exterior), and puts a wider one over the
clean-up sink, in addition to two new windows on the left. The fridge is
closer to the pantry, dining nook, and family room, and follows the
prep progression of fridge-->sink-->prep-->cooktop. However,
you will have some zone crossing--if someone is prepping or cooking, and
needs to access the fridge, he might have to walk past the open DW if
someone else is starting clean-up.

I like the coffee center and MW/snack center close to your work area, with the window to provide light to that side of the room, but you might prefer to have it closer to the family room.

ETA, with a quick flip, the ovens can go at the end, with the coffee center closer to the cooktop. In this plan the small sink allows that space to be used as a second prep area, and the hood is centered between the windows:

Another idea would be to put the coffee center on the counter drawn as MW/snacks. The plumbing would be close to the laundry, so might be a little easier and less expensive. The MW could be put on a shelf next to the ovens or in a drawer on the island, closer to the fridge.

We will be in this house at least five more years.

So, do you plan to sell the house after that time?

If you move the kitchen to the DR having just a huge island with no room for a dining table may adversely affect your resale efforts. So I think it would be better to keep the island just for 4 or 5 diners and try to fit a table for 10.

I tried to do that, but I'm not sure this is your best alternative.

I resized the laundry from the DR side and have the opening there.

I have a 60x78 Dining table.

Cleanup can either be on the island or in the old kitchen area. (couldn't come up with a good idea for the old kitchen)

I have 36" b/w the island and the exterior wall and 45" to the french doors, so 1 can sit on the short side and 4 on the long side, though the seat next to the corner would obstruct traffic.

MW can either be in the cleanup/coffee counter or in the island across the fridge.

I'm hoping you can back up a little bit and show us exactly where the plumbing is in the walls around the powder room?

Also is the little hallway to the garage and powder room open on the family room end or is there a wall there?

@sena01, Thank your for your time and efforts working an alternate layout. I appreciate that you are looking out for our best long term interests! You bring up some valid points.

Regarding time in house, plans are to be here at least until our youngest is out the door. Beyond that, if we move we would likely keep this place as an executive/corporate rental.

On the dining table along with the large island, unless I'm missing something, I think there are a couple of viable options:

1 - The front LR could double as a LR/DR (since we will have an office/conference room, the conference room could help us support larger dinners). With the office, this would be my second choice - eating in the potentially cluttered office area. If/when we move the office out of the house, this is a more viable option.

2 - The nook where you placed the dining table is fully available/convertible for many different uses (hang out/coffee couch, cafe table, kids picnic table, kids art area) and could house a dinning room table if needed. A nice 3x5' (for in home crew) extendable to 3-8 or 3x10 (for guests) would cover all kinds of options. I think this "flex" space that is in the main day to day gathering area would be great. If a future resident doesn't want the extra length of the island, it could be trimmed back to remove some of the overhang.

What are your thoughts on these options? Since we came up with them, we think they're great ;) ! Please let me know if we're missing something.

One of the big draws to squeezing the laundry toward the front of the house is opening up the visual flow from the DR area all the way through to the family room area.

Thanks again!

@mama goose - Do you sleep? WifeD sends out emails/messages at all times of the night too. ;) I really appreciate your time and inputs, but I hope I'm not keeping you up late!

One of the things I included to @sena01 was loving the open flow all the way across the back of the house. You have included a great walk in pantry along the back wall that helps fill that bump out area. I like the idea of all that extra storage and the fridge along that back wall, but am concerned it may break up some of those site lines. That's why I had kept the storage to pantry cabinets. What do you think?

thanks again and get some sleep!

@benjesbride - thanks for challenging my assumptions! On the hall question, the hall between the bath and the garage does go through into the family room. My floor layout diagram was old and related to some wood floor repairs so the little line is the end of the wood floor, not a wall.

On the mechanicals locations, the walls around the first floor 1/2 bath carry almost all between the basement and the rest of the house - either to second floor or roof. I think that moving it would require substantial rework of all of the systems.

Further complicating a move option - our basement is about 2/3's of the first floor, and crawl space for the rest (crawl under the family room). Trying to move the 1/2 bath to the back of the garage (where the current little hallway leads and I think the only real alternate location possibility) would require some foundation work too.

Here's a little pic that shows what all is the 1/2 bath and also around the laundry:

return air around the laundry won't be too hard to move.

I think this would be too expensive/time consuming, for the return.

My assumption (if I may be so bold) as to why you are poking at this: if we move the 1/2 bath, then we would be able to save the DR? Before we put our office in there, we used the DR and LR 1-2x per year. All of our time was spent in the kitchen/FR. I don't think we are unique in this, which is a driver towards the great room concept. We are excited that we could integrate this extra space into our day to day use. Please kick me if there are other considerations that I'm missing!

thanks again!

Have you considered moving washer/dryer near the bedrooms? That's where most laundry comes from and gets put away. Eliminating the laundry space off the kitchen would give you more square footage to work with.

I think a house with an island that seats ten in lieu of a dining table might be hard to sell in any market. Very taste specific.

I got a little carried away with the cut and paste--like I do-- and tried out the idea of turning the front living room/dining room/kitchen into a great room situation and the back family room into an office. From there I thought that phase two could add a bathroom to the back office. Depending on the market, a main floor suite can be a huge value-add for resale. For the purposes of the present renovation, that ensuite bath could be a wet bar for the office maybe? Or just a laundry room. Back yard access could be french doors off the dining room.

I'm no expert (and not even living in US), so I can't really know what will be best for you or if you're missing anything, but if you want 10 to seats on the island I think it will be better to make the island a little longer.

@llucy - Yes, we have considered moving the laundry up to the second floor. I think you may be crawling around in my head! We see all of the space it could add, or become pantry space and like the potentials. I don't think we will tackle that as a part of this go around, but while some of the walls are open we may stub in the gas, electric, vent and water to the second floor location it would go. Second floor remodel is slated for next year. Planned right, we wouldn't have to re-open the ceiling again next year.

Regarding the island and no dining table - I agree that it may make a tough sell if there were no table options, but I think we have good options with the latest layout that bumps into the DR. Our original totally did not allow for it in the kitchen, but the DR was still available. The nook/multi use between the kitchen and FR currently holds a large table that easily seats 10, and scrunches up under the window to seat 5. We have this today and it would carry into the latest layout options. Also, many others in our area use the LR as a DR providing all kinds of space and layout options (I personally don't care for this, but it could work).

Thanks for keeping me honest!

@benjesbride - Excellent thinking outside the box, but still fitting in it and not moving that half bath! I really appreciate the first floor master idea. Our folks are getting older and at some point in the future we may turn into a 3gen household. We have talked about adding an in law suite, and figured bumping off the DR would be the best approach. Our final conclusion was that we are already near the top end for our part of the hood and that would likely push us over the top. If 3gen becomes a reality, we would probably do it in another house. I like the concept, but don't think we would do that in this house.

Doug, I am like Martha Stewart, in that I need very little sleep. Unfortunately I do not have her ambition and drive. I've been shoveling snow, off and on all day, so maybe tonight I will crash. But enough about me. ;)

I think the kitchen will feel open, even with the deep pantry, and it seems like the only time anyone will be out of sight, will be when he is leaning over the sink, washing dishes by hand.

What I really like about having the fridge and pantry in the bump out is that it will be easy to stow groceries (if they enter through the hall), by using the island as a drop zone, then loading the fridge and pantry.

Here's our latest and greatest that draws on
several of your great ideas. This is way better than what we were going to do!

We
would love your thoughts on optimizing cabinet and appliance layout in this
space!

Some decisions we have made:

We are going to shrink the first floor laundry
room and stub in for a second floor laundry for next year's second story
remodel. At that time, the smaller laundry would convert to a pantry.

We are opening the wall into the DR ad using
that space for the kitchen.

We are not adding windows on the left wall of
the kitchen (would only see the side of our neighbor’s home, north side of home
so we would get no direct sunlight) but will invest a little more in lighting
to compensate.

We will partially wall off between current DR
and LR and use either french pocket doors or barn sliders for office
separation.

We don't want to block off any of the current
windows along the back of the house and will do a little window shuffling to
fit best use (the boring details - swap multiuse and DR windows so multi use
stays current height but 1' narrower to center, DR 1' shorter to fit over
cabinets).

We aren't going to make any changes to the FR
layout or the first floor half bath.

We have spent a bit of time looking at
appliances and are sticking with what we had previously picked - 36"
induction cooktop, wall oven/MW combo. Not (yet) replacing our fridge or
DW.

We’ll have space for small to large dining
table in the multi-use area for us or future owners if desired (current plan
shows 1 table in two different configurations).

Here's the current plan -

We'll probably shorten the island 6" to give 48" to cooktop and 45" to 1/2 bath corner. Also, my original measures post with DR was off by 5", corrected here.

I think you need more prep space between sink and stove. I'd do a prep sink on the island - I think you may have nixed that idea though.

It's not traditional, with a centered sink, but if you have the DW on the corner, then the sink, and then the trash, with a wider window, you will have more prep space, and actually be prepping in front of the window.

You'll be prepping on top of the dishwasher if it's between the sink and the range. Leave it where it is, I wouldn't move it.

You might consider moving the trash onto the other side of the sink which would make more sense for prepping and which might be ok for clean-up as well. That would give more counter space for prepping and that point does make sense.

blfenton, did you misunderstand my post? I guess I didn't make it clear, but I meant for the DW to be on the outside, then the sink, then the trash.

I apologize mama goose - I am so sorry! I read "in" the corner not "on" the corner as you had written. So the DW goes at the end of the run.

Off to get my mid-afternoon coffee.

Not at all--I just don't want funkycamper on my case. ;) I'm kidding, FC. ;)

mama goose - I may be a noob, but I see what you are doing! You are slowly trying to win me over to your original layout (and I appreciate it)! Sometimes those of us that are stubborn need to be led to the light slowly and gently...

How much more space would be "goodness" between the cooktop and sink?

I evened out the cabs on each side of the cooktop and shrunk the trash/recycle to 18". To help with natural lighting, I stretched that DR window to 6' wide (pretty sure we can make that work). Does this work out well or do you think more room would be better? I think the personal bias is to leave the trash on the end, near the coffee bar. We also have additional prep space at the coffee bar if needed.

Here's where we are:

Aha! I didn't think about trash generated from the coffee bar. I would still put the trash between the sink and corner to the right (when facing the sink), with a small, door-mounted container under the coffee sink.

36-48" of prep space is good. This is a quote from the NKBA guidelines:

12. Preparation/Work Area: Include a section of continuous countertop at least 36 inches wide and 24 inches deep immediately next to a sink. NKBA recs.

In a corner, though, it's better (IMO) to have at least 36" on one leg. I don't think that's possible with this layout, but with the trash moved over I think you'll be OK.

I love that window!

ETA, we all have our own preferences, hot-button issues, and cooking styles. Sometimes we get used to what we have, and think anything will be an improvement. Just consider all the ideas, and decide which is best for you ... and Mrs.Doug. That's a given. ;)