I admire your courage to stop spraying and understand your reluctance as I also live in a BS prone area in Texas. I have also started concentrating more on my soil and stopped spraying. What I did last spring to help control bs was to totally clean around my roses of any bs leaves and also I have found that planting companion plants helps cut down on the bs. It didn't totally get rid of black spot but it dramatically reduced it. I have come to the conclusion that bs is going to happen in my neck of the woods so I don't stress over it as much. I have also ventured over into the organic rose forum and am with you, I don't need a chemistry lesson or turn my garden into a test lab lol. Good luck in not spraying and be patient!

This isn't particularly encouraging, but we grew Sharifa Asma long, long ago. The blooms were beautiful, but the plant (and it WAS budded) had no vigor, but sort of flopped along the ground. We gave it 3-4 years, with no real improvement, and finally "donated" it to E.J. Harrison Trash Haulers.

If you are going to grow roses without chemical pesticides in a high blackspot prone area, you might consider growing roses that are the most blackspot resistant. Many teas are good for that, but unfortunately they are not good for zone 5. Some of the Kordes roses would do well. Most of the rugosas are blackspot resistant. Some of the once blooming gallicas, albas, and damasks have high resistance. No doubt there are many others. You will need to do research.

You might consider using some of the organically accepted low-toxic pesticides such as sulfur (not lime sulfur; it is only for dormant season use) and copper soap (not regular copper which is also for dormant season use). Those pesticides do have temperature restrictions. Read the instructions and be careful or you can burn your leaves. Both too hot and too cool can cause problems.

I can recommend three books to you. The first is Roses for the North published by the University of Minnesota in 1995. It shows the results of a study on which cold climate roses did well without chemicals in their trials. The second is Hardy Roses, revised edition by Robert Osborne, 2001. His focus is more on which roses can be grown in cold winter climates without extraordinary efforts, but he does address disease with organic methods to some extent. The last is Growing Roses Organically by Barbara Wilde, Rodale Press 2002. It's not the only book on this topic but it pays more attention to cold weather roses than some others I've seen do. All three books are out of print, but fortunately all three can be found in the online used book market.

Rosefolly

James, you've come to the right place because many of us don't ever use toxins but we all want beautiful gardens without regretting the fact that we didn't get degrees in chemistry. One thing you might want to keep in mind is that it will take a few years for beneficial insects to repopulate your garden so change will not happen overnight. The other is that some of the roses you love now may have to go to rose heaven while you find out here which ones are the best to grow in your area. I've had to discard many roses that didn't like my demanding microclimate but have found others that will. The benefit to your environment and the safety of the animals and children in your vicinity is a very satisfying part of going organic. Jerijen has often told the story of one of her beautiful Dalmations who had convulsions caused by the chemicals she was using. The industry doesn't want you to be aware of the extreme toxicity of many of their products but the danger is nevertheless there. We'd be happy to help you in any way while you go through this transition, and applaud your decision to do so.

James, I've been spraying fortnightly with full cream milk (diluted with around 2 to 3 parts water) since Spring. I don't believe I have as much blackspot, and I've seen no mildew, which I usually do on a few plants. It's hard to know with the BS whether it's due to the milk, the weather or my imagination, but 3 plants which are normally riddled with it, are looking pretty good. I'm almost certain the milk has got rid of mildew though.

Good luck!

Trish

James, good luck. I've seen several chemically exposed people die of cancer over the years and would never use herbicides or pesticides. Rosefolly has great advice for your zone. I gardened in zone 4 then 3 for many years and you can never beat the zone long term. High Country Roses and Northland Rosarium have great roses that would work for you. I also ordered from Antique Rose Emporium and Heirloom and they also did very well when I stayed in the zone.

Hold it--fungicides are not herbicides or insecticides. I don't see how they can be lumped all together as the same thing. I don't use any of them, but if I had blackspot on my roses, I wouldn't have any problem with using fungicides to control it. Diane

I'm a great believer in easy gardening and don't care for that approach to growing things that relies on careful dosage of whatever, and least of all on the employment of various -cides. So, good for you. I echo what others have said: find roses that are healthy in your conditions without spraying (or, if you're willing to spray, using safe treatments). This is critical. Get used to the idea that your plants may not always look perfect. Many of my roses get mildew in the summer, which doesn't do them any great harm: I look the other way, or look at plants that do look good then. Plant a lot of different plants in the garden, so that you'll have things to look at when the roses aren't at their finest. Monocultures, I've heard, tend to have more problems with diseases and pests. Feed the soil; don't push your roses hard; don't be in a hurry. Observe what's going on: this is fun as well as useful.

Concerning 'Sharifa Asma', I have a sturdy good plant on its own roots, ten years old now. She smells really good. How yours will do in your conditions I can't say, but there mine is.

P.S. I should have re-read your post before I wrote this. What I meant is, that I too am an art not a science person, and I've found that being that kind of person I can have a good garden.

Good for you, James! I, too, have renounced spraying. According to the people at Bierkreek, the organic rose nursery in the Netherlands, one shouldn't spray ANYTHING. I'm much happier having stopped forcing myself to do this tiring,stressful chore: lugging the heavy sprayer on my back through my very large, sharply sloped garden, wearing a mask and goggles (even for only copper and sulphur spraying,because though they may be less toxic than more "modern" chemical mixes,it still seems to me a bad idea to breathe these things up...) I've been cautioned that it may take a few years for the roses to "kick their drug habit" and build up natural defenses. Frankly I haven't seen that big of a difference in the roses,but I know I sure as heck am happier! and I, too, am concentrating my energies now on soil improvement and mulching, which will definitely help.

After some years of regular spraying with pesticides (which included several different fungicides and the occasional use of one so called "safer" insecticide) I took all of it to a hazardous chemical recycling day and dropped it off. I was spurred by a serious illness in the family that had me thinking hard about unnecessary chemical exposure to my environment. Yes, it did take some time for my roses to settle into a more 'natural' state, and yes, there were some roses that simply could not make it without a chemical crutch. Those ended up being removed - but they were far and away a minority. It is possible to have an un-sprayed garden of old (and modern) roses that is very enjoyable..maybe not perfect, but certainly enjoyable.

It's JMHO, but I believe you are on the right track.

Your Sharifa photo is beautiful James , makes me want to order one.
I have a dog that is more important to me than the roses so I had to research alternatives to chemicals. Wish i had the link for you to read that University of Cambridge horticulture division trials found milk at a 9 parts water to 1 part milk was as good or more effective than chemical sprays against blackspot. So for fun i tried it in my own field trials. Couldn't believe my eyes the next morning the leaves were clean that were dark and forboding the day before. I found out you dont want to keep the milk spray bottle hanging around at room temperature, thats a worse problem than blackspot.

One can also search for a sensible compromise between the spray nothing and the spray everything and often schools of thought.

After observing my gardens closely and noting when BS tends to be a problem, I determined that only for a few weeks in the spring and a few in the fall do most of my roses have enough problems with BS that they need some assistance. Thus I spray a fungicide 2-3 times in the spring and a couple times in the fall (unless I forget), and my roses get along quite well on that.

As far as the roses' health is concerned, I'm lucky that this region (midwest zone 6) has very HOT summers (July and August). BS can't grow in that heat--so most of the summer, they do not need to be sprayed with a fungicide.

I also have made "disease resistance" the number 1 priority when I buy roses. Yes, they must be beautiful, etc.,--but if they are not rated "exceptionally healthy" or "very disease resistant" or something like that, I refuse to buy them. In truth, there is no such thing as a disease resistant rose, but some are definitely better at it than others are.

As far as insecticides go, I never use them. Don't need to. Got rose slug problems? Patience--the good bugs will come along in a couple weeks and gobble them all up! In the meantime, SQUISH will do it! Same is true of other bugs--not that that many serious "plagues" have ever occurred in my garden. Japanese Beetle is the only one that is uncontrollable, but fortunately for me, they are somewhat rare in my region--so knock them to the ground and step on them!

I don't have perfect gardens, but they are in pretty good shape most of the time with very limited spraying on occasion of a fungicide and no insecticides at all.

That compromise works for me. : )

Kate

Thank you all for the advice and encouragement. I know this turns into a touchy subject for many people. I generally look for roses that are listed as disease resistant but usually get focused more on hardiness for my zone. I haven't really had any particular rose that I would call a blackspot magnet. It seems to be more weather related and is worse in the spring and late summer. Indiana weather is very diverse and very unpredictable, so some seasons are really worse than others. My garden has a lot of perennials and annuals mixed with a lot of roses, quite a mix of ht's, grandifloras, lots of English roses, and some ogr's. I haven't used so many chemicals that I've turned it into a waste land. I always have lots of bees, tons of toads, and I've always seen plenty of lady bugs and mantis. Still, as bad as the fungicides smell, and they do smell so poisonous, they surely can't be good for developing the healthiest soil. I can probably handle a little imperfection on some of the perennials and annuals, but I tend to be pretty anal about growing the roses to be as perfect as I can. I'm not a preachy person, but I can say that the more I think about it the happier I am to go organic. It does seem like the right thing to do.

Don't be discouraged if you have to dig out and try lots of different ones until you find the ones that are the most resistant in your area. Don't go by what other people say are good for them. Every yard is different. If you like a rose try it. Give it at least a few years to settle in and mature and then if it's no good dig it out and try something else. It takes a lot of time and patience to find the ones that work for you.

You mention in your subject line that you're reluctant to give this a try. Why are you reluctant to try this? How many roses do you have that you think you could lose if you don't spray them?

What is your tolerance level for imperfect rose foliage? Does every leaf need to be unblemished every day of the year, or is it just chronic defoliation that would bother you? Or something in between?

It's a personal decision for each gardener to make about how much they want to intervene in their plants' development. Since you're working on improving your garden soil, that should help your roses to be able to fend off the foes of the rose in the long term, but I'm guessing there will be a weaning-off period when things probably won't be pretty.

It may help to think about why you're making this change, and how long you'll try it before you decide it is or isn't working, what is your vision of a healthy no-spray garden, and what will you do about any roses that don't make the change gracefully. If you have a well-loved rose that stays defoliated without spraying, for example, do you replace it with something better adapted for your conditions, do you resume spraying on a limited basis, or do you just start back with your current spray regime for all your roses?

Please don't feel you need to respond to this post, I'm just asking questions to try to help you sort things out for yourself. Your subject line had me guessing you're a bit conflicted about going no-spray.

Good luck,

Virginia

Heavens , James' garden sounds incredible !

Love what Seil said, every garden is different and you have to find what works for you. I am always in a toxic wasteland downwind from the farms that fertilize so theres no way my roses are going to get a breath of fresh organic air. I want to live in Jame's garden with the toads.

Have you ever heard the saying 'Can't see the forest because of all of those trees!'? A lot of people have to have everything just perfect. Heaven help you should you call a Jasmine vine 'Star Jasmine' instead of it's proper name.... whatever that is. Toss your chemicals and start to enjoy your roses, black spot and all.... Use the leafless time to remove the dead limbs....oops, canes.

Seil is right, find what works for you and forget the rest of it.

One thing that I know helps is to place roses that are likely to be more damaged in the areas that get the most sun and away from the others. Once I put my most vulnerable rose in a pot away from the others on the side of the house, it stopped getting sick so often and became a larger plant and flowered more. Also, I could easily clean up any fallen debris and change the mulch regularly on a large pot. A plant that's always sick will pass on the spots to the nearby roses as well.

The newer Kordes roses are showing some great promise with disease resistance. I've been pleased with the ones I tried so far.

I am probably a little anal about all of the garden being perfect. I'm okay with a few bad leaves here and there. I think probably having to do with my location, when the conditions are right for it here the blackspot and circaspora can come on hard and fast. The weather here is very diverse and very unpredictable. Everything can be fine and then the blackspot can start and get worse with each day. Last August was bad. I had several roses that in the past seemed pretty immune to it that were completely defoliated about halfway up from the ground. I spent a lot of time removing bad leaves, cleaning up underneath. I rotated a couple different sprays and got it under control after 2 or 3 weeks. I'll be trying the milk solution and see how that does.

mudpie - I love the toads. They are everywhere in my garden. They have such funny faces. I have a woods and a field behind my house and have a couple of foxes that come around quite often. They are beautiful and I love watching them too.

I understand being anal about everything being just so in the garden, I have learned to not let it bother me so much and enjoy my roses and my garden. I love to watch the birds in my back yard and we even have a huge screech owl that likes to hunt in my yard so that is one reason I stopped spraying. I love watching all the wild life enjoy my garden as much as me, although I am glad we have no deer that want to munch on my plants as some people do. We have even seen a fox or two and they are beautiful. I am not saying it was easy to stop spraying because I hate to see the black spot but I have kind of accepted that it come with my climate and have even noticed that some of my more black spot prone roses have had less bs over the last few years. I don't know if they build up a immunity or what but they do look better. Good luck with the milk spray and let us know how it works for you!

That is encouraging to hear. Thanks.

I know what you are saying about the range of experimentation written about on the Organic pages. Some of these gardeners are pouring their whole hearts and souls into trying to discern a way to be totally leaf disease free by working on the soil. Start simple and maybe try some ideas. I don't know anyone who has a no spray garden without a few blemishes and it takes a while to transition. One thing that works for me is to replace pine bark mulches with horse manure mulch. I had a bad outbreak of rust and mildew when I used pine nuggets where I never had rust before. I replaced it with rotted horse manure and I haven't had any rust or mildew there since. I don't know if it's the soil chemistry or the roses being in better health from the manure and natural organisms associated with the healthier soil. Any improvement in the health of your plants and soil helps the plants fight off leaf problems.