Thanks for sharing the link. I really enjoyed the article. I wish the "gears of my inner clock" would stop getting me up at 3 a.m. every day. I make a horrible house guest because of my early rising, and when we stay in hotels I have to place a chair in the bathroom, along with a book to read, until hubby wakes up several hours later. It's no wonder I hate traveling.....

Interesting....

If you want to sleep later, go to bed later. It's no more complicated than that. You'll wake after the same X hours of sleep either way, it's just a matter of what time the clock says that is.

carol, what I suggested is no different than what happens when someone travels to a different time zone when overcoming "jet lag" and getting on local time. It may take you many days of having an altered go to bed or wake time, depending on what direction you want to slide your sleep period. It can take a week or more, similarly depending on how many hours you're adjusting, but everyone will adjust.

If you're in Florida, and you travel to the West Coast or Hawaii, you'll eventually adjust to local time. Always, even the suggestion that you won't is silly. Just do the same thing without leaving home.

I have to disagree on the wakeful thing be remedied by going to be bed at a different time. Doesn't work for me, and how am I to get eight hours of sleep if I wake at 2AM? What time do I have to get to bed in order to get up one time at 5:30AM (to go to work)? Three and half hour later, would mean I'd go to bed at 1:30AM, and I'd get a whole four hours of sleep. I'm not a scientist, but common sense tells me that's not going to work.

"Always, even the suggestion that you won't is silly."

Snidely.

Many of these conversations on KT involve people recounting their experiences. The way some new theories are born is exactly by people remembering, comparing and thinking.

I do not think it is appropriate to pre judge anyone's experience or suggestions as silly. If it is, as you suggest, always true, people will arrive at that conclusion.

But, it may not be.

Last time I was in CA, it took me about 2 weeks to adjust - thank goodness it was a 3 week stay! I am an extremely light sleeper, which has only gotten worse w/ age & I rely on a number of non-med things to get enough sleep. I know I'm not alone in this - my dad was the same way. 7-7.5 hours/night is the max I can manage nowadays & I always, always wake after about 4 hours, then return to sleeping. Funny how my total number of sleep hours has declined w/ age.

Backstory Radio did a very interesting program awhile back about how we used to sleep before the Industrial Age & electric light. Check out the segment titled 'Til Morning Is Nigh...

http://backstoryradio.org/shows/on-the-clock-4/

Snidely, have you noticed that it is mainly women who have trouble sleeping? It's foolish to discount the effect fluctuating hormones have on the brains of many, many women. Your theory is waaaayyyy too simple.

Way too facile Snidely. Quite the over generalization. I too wake up way too early--3:30 or 4:00 a.m. is typical. Doesn't at all matter how late I've gone to bed. I've come to love those first few hours for prayer, reading, writing--quiet stuff. It is, however, a real pain when I travel or stay with others, as grainlady reports! The issue is coffee--which I must have that early! Hotels almost always have coffee makers now, so that isn't the problem it used to be. But staying with others who don't rise until 8 or so is.

I've always been an early riser but for years it was 6 a.m. Hope it doesn't get any earlier than what it is now!

One of the reasons people adjust to different time zones is that the daylight hours also shift because of the change in location. Additionally all other aspects of life like meal times, etc also shift.

I've been retired nearly 3 years. I still wake up between 4 and 4:30AM almost every morning. Sometimes I can go back to sleep. Sometimes not. Daylight saving time is a different thorn in my side. My body has a very good clock. I know within 20 minutes of the actual time without looking at my watch.

People who don't see the sun have messed up circadian rhythms and their internal clocks are unable to measure days. Seasonal light extremes affect many people, both in Summer and Winter. Sleep is a very complicated function and scientists are only just beginning to understand parts of it.

It doesn't matter what time I go to bed, I still wake up at 3 a.m. On rare occasions I'll sleep in until 3:15 or 3:30 at the latest. Our alarm is set for 4 a.m. when hubby gets up, but I can only remember it going off once or twice, but that was because I was already up and forgot to turn it off before leaving the bedroom. Hubby has been off from work for the holidays and we've been staying up later, but I still get up at 3.

I never have a problem getting to sleep because I'm a busy active person starting with a 1-hour exercise program at 4 a.m., am busy and active all day, so I'm dead tired by 9 p.m. when we generally go to bed (usually no later than 10), so Snidely's suggestion doesn't work with me. Even as a child and all through my teens I woke between 4-5 a.m. The latest I've consistently gotten up was 5 a.m. when I had young children at home.

I always get a hoot at commercials where the sun comes streaming into the room and people wake up - it has no basis for my reality.....

GrainLady, you wrote, in part, "...when we stay in hotels I have to place a chair in the bathroom, along with a book to read, until hubby wakes up several hours later."

You should invest in a Kindle Paperwhite. You can have literally hundreds of books downloaded onto it, and the screen is lighted so you can easily read in the dark. It's not backlit -- you don't get glare into your eyes -- so it's very comfortable. You can adjust the light level, too.

grainlady, assuming the ks in your username is for Kansas, pretend that tomorrow you're travelling to Kansas City, and Thursday morning you're flying to Hawaii. You leave KC in the morning, change planes in either LA or San Francisco, and arrive in Honolulu late afternoon. You get to your hotel, walk around a bit, have a light dinner, and then venture back to your room. It's been a long day, you're tired and in bed at 9:00 pm local time. What time do you think you'll wake up? Same bed time the next and subsequent nights, same question. Now check the time difference between Honolulu and KC and tell me what time you're sleeping until on the KC time zone after several days of this.

Yes, everyone has different experiences and we all draw on them when discussing questions like this. Here's what my experiences include - I have just under 1 million lifetime air miles, almost all of which are West<->East flights involving time changes. I've had dozens and dozens of flights over the Atlantic and the Pacific. And dozens of 3 hour time change trips to the East Coast from the West Coast and back. And even with that, I know many people who have flown far more miles for work than I ever did.

For much of my adult life, I had an untreated sleep disorder and had trouble getting a restful sleep. I can't sleep on planes. I never use sleeping pills or sleep aids of any kind. My sleep disorder has been under control for over 15 years, but I've had a lot of experience adjusting sleep and wake times.

Anyone else have comparable experience?

If you want to sleep later, go to bed later. If you want to get up earlier, set the alarm for earlier. It may take days, or a week or more. In both cases, you'll be tired for a few days but your time schedule will adjust relative to the local clock. You simply cannot change your sleep time schedule without pushing yourself a bit and getting overtired and feeling lousy, but it's that over-tiredness that allows you to go to sleep at a different time and so adjust your sleep period to a different time.

There is a certain time of day when a well regulated body delivers melatonin which begins the cycle of feeling sleepy and going to sleep. For most adults that's at about 10:30 p.m. in a place where they're accustomed to the dawn/dusk rhythms (i.e., not jetlag). Some people are just on a different pattern. You can move them out of their normal time zone, but they'll adapt and get back into their normal pattern. Others use alarm clocks to push themselves out of bed at times that their bodies "know" are wrong, and then try to compensate on the other end by trying to go to sleep earlier.

Shift workers don't adapt well, especially when there's only a few weeks on each shift. Many people "need" to get up early (for jobs or other goals) but can't go to sleep early because their bodies still give them the melatonin blast based on the light/dark cycles rather than their wishes for more sleep. They end up chronically sleep deprived.

Adolescents need an extra hour of sleep, but at mid- to late adolescence their bodies are on the normal light/dark sleep/wake cycle and can't just fall asleep earlier than their bodies are ready. A lot of high schools start classes very early, however. In Minnesota, I think it was, they looked at the research and at the high numbers of first period truants, kids sleeping in class, doing poorly in the morning, etc., and decided that even though they couldn't change the whole school day, with all the impact on after school programs, sports, jobs, etc., they could eliminate the before school period and overall start an hour later. This allowed most of the kids to get most of the nine hours they need, and greatly improved attendance and performance.

"but I've had a lot of experience adjusting sleep and wake times.

Anyone else have comparable experience?"

You seem to be making generalizations about all of us based only on your own anecdotal experience.

And having raised a couple of babies and now having a visiting grand baby at times, I certainly have lots of experience adjusting sleep and wake times:)