My apologies for my abruptness above, but now I'm settled into my son's house in northern Arizona where it's 11:30 p.m. and I'm not a bit sleepy because my body says it's only 8:30 p.m. My granddaughter is in bed after we had a good reading session together. She's five and is currently into fairy tales, a subject which fits right into this thread, I think. What about your granddaughter, Vee?

It's funny, but I don't really remember reading very many fairy tales when I was a child, nor did I read them out loud to my sons. Yet somehow I must have absorbed them through osmosis because they are coming back to me as I read them with Abby. In most of my reading I am decidedly Anglocentric but the fairy tales most familiar to me are those collected by the Brothers Grimm (mostly German), Charles Perrault (mostly French), and those written by Hans Christian Andersen. I'm not even sure which fairy tales are English in origin -- I haven't looked them up yet; English folk tales, yes, but not the fairy variety.

Vee, you English have the advantage of a long, long history, but I think Americans have some advantage because most of your history is ours too, and we received liberal doses of it in school plus our own history. Or at least we used to.

I think it would be fun to know what American legends, myths, folklore and tales have jumped the pond in your direction, since old Davy Crockett apparently did. :-)

Please tell me which of these you know or have heard about:

• Paul Bunyan and Babe the Blue Ox
• Pecos Bill and his hoop snake lariat
• Judge Roy Bean
• Sasquatch
• The Lost Dutchman Mine
• Chupacabra
• Lavender, the beautiful hitchhiker (sometimes she has other names)
• Marie Laveau, the Witch Queen of New Orleans

Annpan, I would like your input, as well, and that of anybody else who wants to chime in.

Anyone, what are some other American examples? There are probably regional ones that I don't remember or know about.

Frieda, only the Sasquatch story rings a bell because I saw a TV doco about it. Our knowledge of US heroes comes via the TV and the cinema too, mainly.

I am afraid there was a bit of childish mockery added to the theme tunes. (e.g. "Wyatt Earp, what a twerp!" Because it rhymed rather than as a commentary about the character.)

I can't remember reading stories to my two children. My neighbour was very good at it and as my two mostly played in her house with her two, she would read to them all and do the characters with puppets etc. It just wasn't and still isn't my "thing".

I do, however, regularly give my great-grandchildren books for their mother, a childcare worker, to read. Some people have the knack...

For "Wyatt Earp" read "Quiet Burp" a childish parody on the TV (?) theme song "Wyatt Earp Wyatt Earp, brave courageous and bold"

As Ann says most of our US folklore info. comes from TV/movies!

From your list the answers are 7 No's and one heard of . . Roy Bean. sorry.

Re reading to young relations:

Although living only 70 ish miles away we hardly see our 5 year old Granddaughter. Her Mother is Japanese and despite our trying to be welcoming we feel we are out of our depths with the possible 'cultural differences'. She took Emma back home for 5 months this year, although now the child has started school nothing longer than 6 weeks in the summer holidays will be possible.

They do very occasionally visit us here but we are never invited to their house. I think the last time we went there was over 3 years ago, because we invited ourselves! Our son works hard in his computer security/forensics business plus cares for the child, takes her to school etc. far more than most 'modern' husbands.

I would be interested if any RP'ers (should that be Houzzers?) has any understanding of these cultural differences.

Sorry to get so far off topic. ;-(

I don't know if this is a cultural difference but I had never seen or spoken even to my son's four children when I returned to Perth after a thirteen year absence. I found it hard to bond with them, we had no common ground and I couldn't even understand what the two youngest were saying! They ran their words together and had high voices.

The older children, baby and a two year old then, were now teenagers, 'nuff said!

My daughter's two children are older and remembered me so we got on well. They were more outgoing types anyway.

I wonder if I could have done more to bond with my son's children but I was hesitant about pushing myself on them as I had been away so long and they had plenty of close maternal relations.

I only see them on occasions like birthdays and at Christmas. The oldest grandchildren are married now. I am trying to have a relationship with the great-grandchildren and make the running. I have learned that this is what has to be done...

I feel that we are still RP'ers.

Frieda, I am not familiar with Roy Bean, Lavender, or the Witch of New Orleans.

Johnny Appleseed is another US myth/legend.

Donna

No worries, Annpan and Vee: In the U.S., also, much mockery was/is made of Wyatt Earp's name -- 'Earp' is a synonym for vomit here. It seems to bring out the puerility in most people. It's really a pity, I think, that so much of U.S. culture -- the worst parts, in my opinion -- is spread via television and movies. No wonder that people in other parts of the world have such perverted and distorted notions about the U.S. Of course, the views of U.S. people toward other cultures are just as warped.

Well, the fact that each of you only knows one out of the eight storylines I listed is enlightening. Actually, I'm not sure how well-known they are to 'average' Americans, but I don't think they are obscure. :-)

Vee, I'm no expert on cultural differences but I have experienced culture shock in various places, even though I consider myself quite adaptable. My daughter-in-law from Kentucky has had a rather difficult time adjusting herself to western U.S. cultures, perhaps because she had never been outside Kentucky and far from her kin very much (she told me that she made one trip when she was a child -- to Ohio).

I try not to be a pushy-type grandmother, but I have to have my Abby fixes several times during a year. I got so lonesome for her that before she started kindergarten I told my son and daughter-in-law that I would give them money for a cruise vacation if Abby could stay with me.

I have heard of Johnny Appleseed, from a cartoon!

I now recall that I had a children's book once with stories about Rip Van Winkle and the Headless Horseman so possibly American Folk Legends were included. Funny how these recollections pop into the brain!

Donna, Judge Roy Bean was a real person who set himself up as "The Law West of the Pecos" -- the Pecos is the main tributary in Texas of the Rio Grande. He had such an infatuation with Lillie/Lily Langtry, the Jersey (Channel Isle)-born actress that he started a town and named it in her honor. Langtry herself visited the Judge and her namesake. There is a film starring Paul Newman as Roy Bean called "The Life and Times of Judge Roy Bean." Langtry, Texas was pretty much a ghost town when I was there in the 1970s. In fact, it never 'bustled'.

I suspect the Lavender story goes by many different titles and the details vary from region to region. The basics of it: A driver is startled to see the figure of a woman dressed in the color lavender by the side of a lonely road. The driver (always a male) stops and asks if she would like a lift. She accepts but instead of getting into the passenger side, she chooses to sit in the backseat. The driver glances at her from time to time in his rearview mirror, but after a few minutes he asks her where she would like to be dropped off. When she doesn't respond . . . well, I won't divulge the rest.

Marie Laveau was a real person, too, a Creole who practiced voodoo in New Orleans. To this day, her tomb in (I think) the old St. Louis Cemetery #1 is covered with graffiti and paper notes to her are pushed into the cracks of the vault, asking her to intervene with some of her voodoo spells when people think they need some supernatural help.

Yes, of course, Johnny Appleseed, Rip van Winkle, and The Legend of Sleepy Hollow -- how could I not think of them!

Thanks, Frieda! My mom has cousins named Bean...I wonder if old Roy is in my family tree somewhere. Daniel Boone is in there on my dad's side.

Of course, I'd really rather be related to the British Mr. Bean - he's hysterical!

Donna

What a lot I have missed, being out of loop, due to surgery and recovery, etc. etc. Unable to access a computer.

I had only heard of Johnny Appleseed, Rip Van Winkle, and Paul Bunyan. I did a lot of reading on "King Arthur" back in the day and concluded there was an historic personnage who filled a need to unify early peoples of Britain in battles, but who had a quite different name.

What Ann wrote of being unable to understand kids, plus the high pitched voices reminds me so much of my impressions of today's college girls. I find they speak very rapidly in accents quite unknown to me, and even I thought I once recognized "Valley Speak". Does anyone know where this monolithic speech of the young hails from?

Welcome back, Nymph! I hope you are feeling much better now!

Do young people actually talk? I usually see them standing in clusters staring at their smart phones. And are they all nearsighted? They all hold their phones so close to their faces.

Donna

Mary, I always notice when you don't post for several days. I hope your recovery is speedy.

I hear many young women, including my twenty-year-old niece, ending nearly all of their sentences with an upward intonation, almost as if they turn every sentence into a question. Sometimes I miss their real questions because of it. I am beginning to think this peculiarity is a phase they go through. How many women over the age of thirty continue doing it? When I hear some over-thirties that do, I tend to think of them as cases of arrested development. That may be an unfair interpretation on my part, though, because it rather grates on me.

It's usually young American women that speak in such a way. Naturally I hear more of them, but I have noticed young Englishwomen, Frenchwomen, and Asian women in Hawai'i speaking in a similar way, so perhaps it's a cross-cultural phenomenon. I don't recall ever speaking that way myself -- or my contemporaries doing it -- but I might have been oblivious to it when I was part of that age group. Good question, Mary! :-)

Frieda, how could you omit Pele, the Hawaiian goddess of fire who lives in the volcano and appears to drivers along the roadside as either a beautiful young woman or an old crone? And you had better give her a lift! The Honolulu Advertiser published a series on then-current Pele sightings when I lived on Oahu in the mid-50s, and a Hawaiian woman friend believed them.

I was not familiar with the Lavender story under that name but have heard it over the years minus the lavender dress.

But, Carolyn, everyone knows Pele is real. ;-)

Even those hard-headed scientists, volcano cowboys, give an offering to Pele before they can tamper with her home.

I have been reading a bit about the various Lavender stories. Apparently they pre-date automobiles as versions have her hailing buggies, coaches, wagons, and lone horsemen. I would not be surprised to read of similar tales in the UK or practically anywhere. The theme must be significant in some way, but I'm not sure what the significance is. Anyone, any ideas?

Frieda, you can check the Wikipedia entry on the vanishing hitchhiker legend (see link). I remember it from a popular song back in the 60's where the hitchhiker was named Laurie and left her sweater in the car. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanishing_hitchhiker

Thank you, Cheryl! I bet if I had given the title "The Vanishing Hitchhiker" to the story more people would have recognized it immediately. "Lavender" is probably a more localized variation, maybe a Midwest one, as I am originally a Midwesterner. I was trying to think of that Dickey Lee song, too, but I think I conflated it with "Tell Laura I Love Her." Come to think of it, there was a rash of those 'dying lover songs' in the 1960s which probably were stylistic continuations of sentimentally morbid old ballads.

I think I read some of Jan Harold Brunvand's books that popularized the term urban legend. But long before those, I was fascinated with a book I ordered circa 1961 through Scholastic Book Services (remember those newspaper-like catalogues and order sheets that were passed out every few weeks to us in school). Anyway, the book was Strangely Enough by C. B. Colby. It was a collection of weird stories purported to be true.

I only have a fairly clear recollection of one story -- that about "The Barbados Vault." Sheesh, I thought that was about the creepiest thing I had ever read. Some bigwig family on the island of Barbados had a rather commodious tomb that had to be abandoned due to the coffins in it confoundingly rearranging themselves. Some of these were big, heavy lead-lined coffins that wouldn't remain in their positions. The family suspected vandals or grave robbers at first, thus the coffins were tidied up, fine sand was spread on the floor of the vault so the perpetrators' footprints would show up, and the vault was sealed. Yet when the vault was opened to receive its newest occupant the older coffins, except one, were again in a jumble, but the sand was undisturbed. I recall there was some speculation about whether some kind of seismic activity was shaking the coffins around like dice in a cup. Typical of me, I can't remember the conclusion, but in this case there probably wasn't one.

Oh, about the significance of such tales as the 'Vanishing Hitchhiker' and why they are perennially popular: According to Brunvand and others, it seems to be "wonder at the inexplicability of such things as disappearances". Humph! I thought it might be something profounder than that, analysis-wise. ;-)

Frieda, Scholastic Books is still around! The preschool at my church gets mountains of catalogs from them several times a year. :)

Donna, I'm happy to know that Scholastic is still spreading the joy! I remember how eager my classmates and I were to get our hands on the catalogues, to fill out our orders, to anticipate the delivery, and the triumph of receiving the books. It was special and I hope it still is for school kids. ("My Weekly Reader" was special, as well. I was a teenager before I let go of that subscription.)

I still have some of those SBS paperbacks, some of which cost 25 cents fifty-something years ago. I always liked the mysteries, ghost stories, and "true" tales of the unexplained best (Strangely Enough wasn't the only one they offered). One year my teacher read out loud to the class a nifty little mystery called Sea View Secret. I liked it so much that I got my own copy and reread it until it fell apart. I searched for a replacement for years, until the late 1990s when I found AbeBooks and went on a tear of ordering every book I could recall reading that I didn't have a copy of already.

Here's something: Ghost Lights. Practically every region has folklore about these; some have been quite well documented but are still unexplained. The ones I am most familiar with are the "Marfa Lights" because I've actually seen them. As a young reporter for the Lubbock Avalanche-Journal I was given an assignment 'to get the story' on them. The lights appear between Marfa and Alpine, Texas. Do you all know stories of, or have you seen, ghost lights in your areas?

Thanks for your good wishes. Oh yes, everywhere I have lived there have been ghost lights seen. There still exists an interest in the ones seen on the railroad tracks near Williamsburg, VA where I once lived. I believe they were also seen on the Yorktown Battlefield at night. Various ones of the old plantations in Tidewater VA had "ghosts" seen by tour guides and watchmen. Often these were ladies dressed in white.

In present-day downtown Charleston, I live near the old jail. It is now occupied by an architectural school, part of the College here. Nevertheless, at night, various ghost sightings have been spotted, unexplained even under intense investigation.

I remember "The Weekly Reader" vividly! I also recall being a subscriber in my youth to a junior magazine that had interesting stories and supernatural tales. Can anyone recall the name of this one? My favorite of its offerings was a tale of a Russian witch, Babi Yaga, who traveled about on a "mortar" instead of a broomstick. Oh, the oddities we recall from childhood!

Mary - are you remembering the Jack & Jill magazine? That's where I read my first Baba Yaga stories! I had no idea what a mortar & pestle was, and had to go look it up. Even then I wasn't quite sure, because all the spices in my life 'til then arrived ground up already in little bottles. :)

Jack and Jill magazine would be my guess, too.

I knew what a mortar and pestle was because my daddy was a pharmacist in the days when druggists still used them to crush and grind the bulk products. Not all prescriptions and preparations came pre-packaged. The logo on the front door of his drugstore was a mortar and pestle. I can't quite picture Baba Yaga flying around in a mortar (a bowl). I don't think I ever saw it illustrated.

Just to toss this in. Johnny Appleseed, Jonathan Chapman, was as real as Judge Roy Bean and Marie Laveau. He traveled the midwest giving out starts of apple trees, sowing seeds, and distributing Swedenborgian literature.

Interesting thread this.

And re Babi Yaga. She lived in a house on chicken legs called Ishbushka, and I remember her too from Jack and Jill magazine.

This is such an interesting thread! I've been reading and enjoying -- Frieda, you have the best ideas :)

My kids enjoyed the Rick Riordan books, all based on Greek and Roman mythology. I think we had all the Percy Jackson books at one point. Riordan has now expanded to Norse mythology with Magnus Chase and the Gods of Asgard, though my kids are too old for these now.

Another mythology-based book that sprung to mind was Neil Gaiman's American Gods, which I've been meaning to re-read for quite some time.

Laceyvail and Sheri, I'm so glad to see your input! I'm pleased that you've found this thread interesting.

Sheri, my older son, the reading one, says that American Gods is among his favorites -- it may be his most favorite.

Hmm, I've had several of my posts disappear. Perhaps that's a hint that I post too much. The gremlins are mucking with my words, too! :-(

Does this happen to anyone else?

Keeping my fingers crossed that this post will appear -- and stay visible.

laceyvail, yes, that's the one: I remember the chicken legs, too. It was "Jack & Jill". I think a lot of those stories shaped my formative years.

Glad to see you posting here again.

Mary, you mentioned the lights seen near, or on, the railroad tracks outside Williamsburg, VA -- are they of the will-o'-the-wisp type, do you know? I think those are usually associated with swampy or marshy places but people who have tried to explain them as a natural phenomenon say they can occur anywhere there's decay happening (usually of wood or other dead plants). The "Marfa Lights" I mentioned above are in a desert region, not wetlands, but they seem to 'act' similarly to ignis fatuus -- one theory is that they are gases released from decaying wooden fence posts or old railroad ties that were left to rot after the rails were removed and the railroad line was abandoned. Others say the likely cause is reflections of car headlights (there's a highway nearby), but since the lights have been seen since the 1870s, long before automobiles, that can't be the complete explanation. Some think temperature inversions are the cause since it's not unusual in the region for the temperatures to fluctuate 50 to 60 degrees in a single day. (How that would cause or affect lights, I am not sure I understand.)

When I think about it, I am quite amused that some people go to so much trouble to debunk myths and folktales while most lovers of these type stories will ignore a logical or psychological solution -- they don't really want a solution; they want good stories!

Question for everyone: Are superstitions 'mini-myths', so to speak? One site I've been reading -- maybe Wikipedia -- says that superstitions are inextricably linked to religion. All right, they may have been originally, but what about those people who aren't religious but who are still superstitious? Like the old superstition about spilling salt so a pinch of the spilt part has to be thrown over one's left shoulder -- or is it the right shoulder?

I knew this was a wide, wide topic, but I'm beginning to comprehend that it is also much deeper than I ever realized. :-)

Frieda, I'm not sure superstition can be wholly linked to religion, or if it can, as you said, the origins of a particular superstition have become murky or forgotten and the superstition passed on simply through popular culture. How did the salt thing originate? Why is walking under a ladder unlucky? Or Friday the 13th? If there is a religious component to these three in particular, I've never heard of it, but that might just be a gap in my education. I would guess a black cat crossing your path would link back to fears of witchcraft which in turn links back to Christianity, but I can't really think of anything else off the top of my head. Guess I'm not very superstitious (or religious).

Frieda,I think both sites of the ghost lights in VA were near swampy areas, so your thesis is possible. Actually, the ghost lights in VA were seen near West Point, the home of a large paper mill, if that makes any difference.

Sheri, I 'cross my fingers' and 'knock on wood', both ways of wishing that something will come true, but I never really considered why I do those things. Probably I just saw someone else using those gestures and phrases and I imitated them.

Some of the sites give the religious meanings, including:

• Crossing the fingers was once (still is?) a Christian sign of faith, as the crossed fingers look very much like the Ichthys symbol, a stylized profile of a fish
• Knock on wood - apparently this is an old, old gesture (sometimes said as "touch wood") going back to pagan times when spirits were thought to dwell within the trunks of trees
• Walking under a ladder -- a ladder leaning against a wall forms a triangle; a triangle represents the Holy Trinity, thus 'breaking' the triangle by walking through it indicates disdain for the Trinity and sympathy for the Devil!
• Spilling salt -- perhaps this is considered unlucky because Judas is believed to have spilt salt at the Last Supper
• Friday the 13th -- this seems to be a conflation of two superstitions: Friday is a bad luck day (to sailors and others) and 13 is an unlucky number which seems to have been a common belief even in ancient cultures such as that of Egypt and was certainly thought to have been unlucky in Norse mythology. On October 13, 1307 -- a Friday -- King Philip of France ordered a raid to be carried out against the Knights Templar. The Templars were rounded up and many were tortured and later executed. The KT were a religious order in the beginning. Didn't Dan Brown in The Da Vinci Code make much of the Friday the 13th connection? ;-)

I knew of the Friday the 13th belief as connected to the Knights Templar, because of my first set of in-laws -- he was a something-or-other degree Mason and she was a Grand Worthy Matron of the Eastern Star. Their son, my DH, had been in DeMolay, the youth part of the Masonic organization named after Jacques de Molay, the last Grand Master of the Knights Templar. One of the first things my future in-laws asked me when I was introduced to them was, "Are you a Rainbow Girl?" "Am I a what?" was my mystified response which of course indicated that I wasn't. They were kind enough to forgive me for not having that qualification.

What about Old Wives' Tales? How many of these are familiar to you? Some but not all have been debunked. Many are still widely believed. Some of these are so old that the younger generations may not have heard of them, but don't worry that you might be giving away your age if you admit to knowing them. We'll keep it in this thread. ;-)

• Chocolate and cheese cause acne.
• Women should not cross their legs, except at the ankles, because crossing causes the hips to spread.
• Don't sit in a draught because it will cause you to catch a cold.
• Women should not lift heavy things; to do so might cause the womb to tip over. (Does this include lifting their toddler children?)
• Women should not sit directly on the bottoms of bathtubs. Sit on overturned basins or pots instead. (One of my Home Ec teachers gave this bit of sage advice.)
• Not wearing a brassiere will cause the breasts to sag. If at all possible, wear a brassiere while sleeping.
• Once you start shaving your legs, the hair will become coarser and you will have to continue for ever.
• Dandruff is contagious. Do not use another person's comb or hairbrush.
• Sleeping on one's stomach is dangerous.

What are some others? I didn't include any of the cautionary advice given to young males because, frankly, I don't know how offensive it might be to some. Being the mother of two sons, I just want to groan with disgust or howl with laughter when I read or hear some of it.

Frieda, many of those OWT are new to me! Why not sit in a bathtub?

Donna

Actually there are medical reasons for not crossing ones legs: it can cut off the circulation.

Germs, Donna. Apparently the bottoms of overturned basins and pots were thought to be more hygienic than the bottoms of bathtubs. It might be true in some cases. There was something of an obsession after the turn of the 20th century with women exposing their private parts to bathroom fixtures, especially if those fixtures were also used by men. Errant spermatozoa were something for females to worry about!

I had another teacher who was very, very concerned about girls' short skirts in the 1960s for the same reason. She suggested to us girls that we sit on one of our textbooks or at least on a page of notebook paper. We sometimes did -- in her class only. :-)

Might be some truth in women not lifting heavy things, especially if they are pregnant but more for care of their backs and in not sitting in draughts 'though it wont give you a cold it could make your bladder rather uncomfortable.

And as for combs. . .

Many years ago I was asked to accompany a group of kids on a bus to a swimming lesson (and as I swim like a brick the lesson was nothing to do with me). On the return journey I noticed the girls were passing a comb between themselves and in a very general way I said "Don't use other people's combs, just use your own."

That was a big mistake! The comb-owner produced her Mother, a small and amazingly aggressive harridan. She pinned me in a corner and threatened, among other painful things, to pull all my hair out. While this verbal assault was taking place a passing adult ran to get help from someone in authority. But Authority, on hearing who the woman was, locked himself in his office and only came out when the coast was clear!

Were there to have been a next time I would have called for the nit-nurse.

Oh, my, Vee - that sounds very scary!

Frieda, thanks for the info!

Donna

Frieda, thank you for the background on the ladder, salt, fingers crossed, etc. I had never heard of the ladder representing the trinity -- gracious! There are definitely gaps in my education. I figured the Friday the 13th superstition had deep roots, I just wasn't sure what they were.

Regarding the old wives tales, I've heard the ones regarding shaving your legs and not sitting in a draft, and as a child I was firmly instructed not to use other people's combs and brushes -- but that was due to the danger of head lice, not dandruff. I'd never heard any of the other ones, but I grew up in the 70s when many of the adults around me were busy discarding tradition (and also their bras), which might explain my unfamiliarity with some of these, especially regarding the dangers of errant spermatozoa ... (Ack! Sorry, I'm still laughing!)

In the spirit of myths, folk tales, etc., I once had a friend who is Jewish ask me about Christmas wreaths. She had been told the wreath represented Jesus's crown of thorns. I was raised Catholic and I'd never heard that before, and had always understood that Christmas wreaths were simply another pagan symbol (trees, wreaths, yule logs) of eternity/light/renewal that had been swept into holiday tradition by the Christian church. Has anyone heard this before? Is it actually a common belief?

Yes to the non-shaving of legs. When I was 14, two aunts and a cousin two years older than I stopped by for a visit. One aunt remarked that I was not shaving my legs and should not, and the cousin repeated the "grow in thicker" advice. Just as soon as they left, I went straight into the house and shaved my legs with my dad's razor.

Hadn't heard the one not to sit in a bathtub or the dangers of errant spermatozoa but many, many times not to sit on public toilet seats because of catching a horrible disease.

Also, there was one about not eating fish and drinking milk at the same meal. When I asked about that, my mother said, "Oh, someone somewhere started that after getting sick following eating a fish meal and drinking a glass of milk."

Sheri, I haven't heard that about Christmas wreaths representing Jesus's crown of thorns. An 'Easter' wreath would do that, but not for the Christmas season. The wreaths displayed before Christmas are really 'Advent' wreaths, traditionally, as they symbolize the coming of Christ -- his birth.

Wreaths of various plant materials (leaves, pine cones, vines, flowers, ears of wheat -- and maize in the New World, etc.) have been used with symbolic meaning since history began and probably long before as there is evidence in Neolithic graves of wreaths. As you thought, Sheri, pagans used wreaths in various ways.

I grew up in the Lutheran church where I heard that Lutherans began the tradition of the advent wreath -- in Germany, of course -- in the 16th century. I thought that might just be a Lutheran legend, but I looked it up and found that historians nearly all agree it is true.

Ach! Vee, some people seem to be looking for something -- anything -- to get incensed about. I don't remember lice being a problem when I was a child in Iowa, and I was lucky that I never got lice in my travels, but when my older son was about seven years old, he managed to pick them up at school. When I was notified by the school nurse, I was mortified, but she waved it off as such a common occurrence that it was no more shameful than a kid getting a cold. She told me matter-of-factly what to do. However, when I told my mother, she said she was hanging up the phone and she would be right over. In typical Hausfrau fashion, she directed an all-fronts attack: DH shaved son #1's head and dunked him in a bath of "Rid' while mother and I threw out all son's possessions that couldn't be cleaned and we washed all his bedding and clothes in hot water and dried them on high heat. We even hauled away his mattress set. When I triumphantly told the school nurse what we had done, she only said, "You didn't have to go to that much trouble." Nevertheless, for several weeks after, I think all of us were sure we had lice every time we had an itch. Dear son learned the lesson to not share combs or anything else that touched his hair or head -- we think he got the lice from sharing headphones.

Carolyn, hee! I did the same thing -- the first time I shaved my legs I used my daddy's razor with one of those single-sided blades. I managed to take off as much skin as I did hair and I had to plaster Band-Aids on my ankles, shins, and knees. Mama, who had told me that she thought I could probably go without shaving my legs indefinitely because my leg hair was blonde peach fuzz, just shook her head in resignation. It's funny: I swear that my leg hair did get thicker and darker after I started shaving. But when I lived in Europe I stopped shaving because European women didn't usually shave back then and the hair reverted to its previous softness and was hardly visible except in bright sunlight. When I moved back to the U.S., I took up shaving again, bowing to peer pressure I suppose.

Carolyn, our school cafeteria nutritionists in the 1950s and '60s must have believed the OWT about not having fish and milk at the same meal. On Fridays when we were served fish sticks, tunafish sandwiches, or tuna casserole no crates of the dinky-do cartons of white and chocolate milk were put out for the kids to select. We had to drink water on those days. That didn't bother me because I loathed milk.

I think there were a lot of food taboos in those days, as well as food recommendations that made later nutritionists blanch. My mother shudders every time she remembers the doses of cod liver oil that were thought to be necessary for the healthy development of every child. She didn't inflict the cod liver oil treatment on my brothers and me. Neither did she subscribe to the belief that children needed regularly scheduled enemas. But she really put her foot down and refused to get our tonsils removed when doctors were routinely extracting, on parents' requests, even perfectly healthy tonsils to prevent their kids' potential sore throats. Turns out mama was right! Mama is 93 and we 'kids' are 72, 67, and 65, and we all still have our tonsils.

I think we still have just as many wacky beliefs nowadays about food -- and probably just as many OWTs about different notions.

I decided to get my D's tonsils removed as she used to get very feverish sore throats when she was small. She was so badly affected that she couldn't hold her little cup without her hand shaking.

My SiL was a qualified Children's Clinic Nursing Sister and warned against the operation.

MiL was split between my gut feeling and SiL's superior advice! After the operation, my D never had the sore throats again! SiL also lectured new mothers about the use of dummies but sheepishly admitted to using one when she had her own baby!

I always wipe public lavatory seats if I have to use one and I believe that the British Royals and others have paper covers to put on them. We were warned about catching STDs from them and you could get pregnant if you sat in an uncleaned bath after a man had used it! Well that was the excuse made when an unmarried girl "fell" pregnant!

Re head lice . .. and read no further if you are of a delicate disposition or have just eaten a meal . .. but for me the absolute worst thing brought home from school by my children was thread worms. Even to write this makes me squirm.

The treatment had to be 'taken' by the whole family and repeated a couple of weeks later. A revolting powder that was mixed with water and swallowed. A few short hours later terrible stomach cramps were followed by diarrhoea (nb. UK sp) Older son/second child, the first one with the symptoms locked himself in the bathroom for several hours rather than face the torture. Of course he finally had to come out and be 'dosed'.

Frieda, co-liver oil was available under the early National Health system, but as my Mother (who it was not designed for) didn't like the smell we were not forced to take it. A product known as National Dried Milk was a similar promotion and came in big tins (apparently my M-in-L used to eat it by the spoonful . . .in its 'dried state' ;-( ) Concentrated orange juice was also provided. My youngest brother was 'young' enough to qualify and we used to take surreptitious sips of it. The above were to supplement the 'rations' available during and after WWII.

'Free' milk was provided at school until the 1980's. it came in one third of a pint bottles and was given out at break-time. It was my first experience in sucking through a straw (the waxed type) and didn't go well.

Also a pint of 'free' milk a day to all expectant and nursing mothers.

Carolyn, 'dummies' were heavily frowned on over here. I know they can keep a baby quiet but I have seen mothers pick up a fallen dummy from the street, spit on it and shove it back into the baby's mouth. Not a pretty sight.

My children were thumb-suckers . . no doubt despised by the professionals!

I doubt the Royal Family ever has cause to use a 'Public Convenience' . . . but of course One never knows when One may be taken short.

Vee, I read somewhere that Ladies in Waiting to the Royals carry these lavatory seat paper covers. Also that one King's advice to his son was to take advantage of any chance "to go"!

I pick up the oddest things in my varied reading material. That was probably in a waiting room magazine as I never buy them.

My mother also couldn't stand the smell of cod liver oil so we were spared that but enjoyed the free orange juice and school milk. We tried putting a boiled sweet into the milk to flavour it but this annoyed the dairy because they got stuck on the bottom of the bottle and had to be hand washed as the machine didn't shift it. We were told not to do it any more.

Ann, I went to a very small just-out-of-town school more like a Dame School and the Dame aka Head Mistress, rather than take the third of a pint milk bottles, used to get quart bottles and pour the milk into small plastic beakers . . . and probably used what was left over in the school lunches.

As these beakers were washed-up by the 'big girls' ie ten year olds they got little more than a swish in cold water. The lingering taste of sour milk used to haunt me at break times, not helped by my Mother's refusal for us to take a small snack to eat with it. Other children used to munch on a biscuit or a solitary 'sweetie' but not us 'deprived' kids. At least none of us was fat or even chubby in those far off days.!

Frieda, my mom and her brothers were regularly dosed with castor oil. She's about to turn 90 and still shudders over being made to take it!

My parents were going to have my sister's tonsils removed when she was 10-12 years old. She got tonsillitis every winter and missed at least a week of school. Back then (early 70s) you checked into the hospital the night before surgery. She was all settled in her room then apparently my brother told her a lot of surgery horror stories and scared her so badly that they didn't do the surgery. I think she still has her tonsils. Mine have never been any problem.

Donna

I am one that had her infected tonsils out at age 5. I still recall being in the hospital and the ether, believe it or not!

I am another who was dosed with cod liver oil daily. Actually, I got used to it, and rather came to like it. There is no accounting for taste!

I seem to recall a belief that it was unhealthy to swim while you were having your period.

As a first-grade teacher, my mother regularly had pupils with head lice. She said her head would begin to itch at the first mention of it. My own experience was when someone in my class had them, and the teachers looked at everyone's hair. I wore Shirley-Temple-style long curls at the time, and the teacher who inspected me knew my mother. She picked up my hair curl by curl messing them up and saying, "Your mother is going to kill me." Fortunately, I wasn't affected.

Mary, I remember that about girls/women swimming when having their periods. In P.E. classes, girls could bring a note from their mothers saying something like: "Please excuse Jane from P.E. activities this week as she is having her 'time of the month'." Probably every day there were several girls who sat on the gym floor with their backs leaning against the wall watching the rest of the girls doing calisthenics, playing basketball or volleyball, or trundling around on those wheeled scooters (while lying on our backs using our arms and legs to propel ourselves like spiders; remember those?).

There were some girls who, I swear, must have had two periods every month because they participated so sporadically. I don't know if our gym teachers (we had two every year) tried to keep track of how many days a month each girl either participated or sat out. I suspect they did, but maybe it was just too much trouble. I never sat out because 1) my mother would not have supplied a note, and 2) I was a tampon user almost from the very beginning and never found it necessary to avoid such things as swimming class.

My mother says that women during her time and earlier were also told that washing their hair and taking baths should be avoided during their periods. Right at the time when they probably needed them most. Can you imagine the body odor? Maybe people's noses weren't as sensitive back then, though.

While reading through the collections of Old Wives' Tales at various sites, I noticed that the preponderance of admonitions in them have to do with menses, pregnancy & childbirth, and 'change of life'. Whew! It's a wonder women have ever managed to accomplish anything! From banishments to 'red tents' to thinking that 'hysteria' is a propensity of females (the derivation of the word, in fact, is from 'uterus') to some of the more modern notions, such as PMS.