actually...i had it all wrong. it is best to DECREASE N and keep P the same level during flowering to stress the plant a bit according to some posts by tapla and other sources.

i am trying to find out a product that has something like a 2-1-2 ratio with all micronutrients similar to foliage pro.

tapla are you still around here?

I generally solve that issue by reducing the amount of 3:1:2 I'm supplying and increasing the amount of K by supplementing with Pro-TeKt 0-0-3. I've never seen any evidence of an insufficient P supply using this strategy. Virtually everything I grow blooms & fruits abundantly with this regimen.

Al

Epic, I also looked for a 2-1-2 - I seem to remember finding one for orchids, but didn't get it - maybe it was very costly? I also tried finding, say, a 7 or 8-3-6 etc. It was very hard to search, however, as things such as prices or pounds also show up. It was several months ago and I don't remember what I did or didn't find, just that I didn't buy anything so either it was costly, it didn't have the micros, or it didn't exist. I seem to recall finding a lot about 2-1-2 in relation to lawns...

If anyone else has it or if you find it, that would be great info to share.

thanks for the responses to both of you.

@tapla great advice and that sounds like a great method. but i must ask, do you buy into the theory that slightly reducing N during bloom causes a bit of stress and thus causes enhanced bud production? i read an article from Lawrence Brookes (from GH) stating just this.

I have been looking at the DG line for months, especially the Foliage Pro because of the 3-1-2 ratio. Just recently I discovered that the Botainicare CNS17 coco grow is also a 3-1-2 NPK ratio. CNS17 is also way cheaper compared to Dyna-Gro believe it or not! The only problem is CNS17 does not come loaded with all the macros that foliage pro does. But this certainly can be fixed with another product - i have not settled on which one would be best perhaps someone could help? I have seen the product Micromax thrown around a lot - is this what I am looking for and would it work in coco?

What's more, the CNS17 Coco Bloom comes as a 2-2-3 ratio. I feel this is an excellent ratio for bloom. The nitrogen is slightly lowered, which research shows causes best bud production. Also, the P ratio is not ridiculously high, and not higher than the N (this is what i concluded from taplas high p post). Also the K is slightly raised as well, marijuana tissue samples done by AN (yea they did something useful!) shows that in bloom that not only do plants not need high P but while in bloom they use a slightly higher amount of K.

What do you think about this? CNS17 seems even more appealing to me because I would like to experiment with coco and they make a coco line.

sorry for the bombardment of questions...everything i wrote here has been the culmination of literally weeks and weeks of all night reading and research. this stuff fascinates me. although i will probably get just as good results running something simple i would like to learn exactly how to use my nutrients most efficiently.

I tried a Botanicare product last year - it was almost a 3-1-2, but with slightly less N - it wasn't the coco one, though.

Wait! I just looked at the site to see what it was and found a Power Blend 3-1-4! That seems perfect. It says it has trace minerals, but doesn't list them. It lists NPK, Ca, and Mg.

But, what I was going to say earlier is that I had to use more of the Botanicare per gallon, so it wasn't less expensive. It is the same with the Power Blend 3-1-4 or the 2-2-5 - you have to use a full teaspoon. With the FP, I use 1/8 t for my indoor flowering plants.

I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as others, but I'd be concerned about going to a 2-2-whatever because that's still a LOT of P. But, I certainly could be misunderstanding.

2-2 is still more P than needed but its not a huge amount. how many mls does foliage pro call for?

3-1-2 is said to be the "golden" ratio. not 3-1-4

I stumbled over FP 9-3-6 a few years ago & tried it. I think I might even have suggested it as likely an excellent fertilizer, even before I tried it, based on the analysis. I mean - there might be brand names of chemicals like phosphoric acid and potassium nitrate, but who really cares? Potassium nitrate is potassium nitrate ....... If the RATIO of all the nutrients to each other is favorable, that's all that is important. We can alter the dosage as we see fit; and the fact that FP contained all the essential elements plants normally take up from the soil in the right ratio was a no-brainer, as far as I was concerned.

There may be other fertilizer brands that are available as 3:1:2 ratios and are as good as FP 9-3-6, but we just haven't found them - at least I haven't. That might be partly because I'm well-pleased with FP as my 'go to' fertilizer, and I'm not looking all that hard; but I would surely share with you if I stumbled across another fertilizer that looked equally promising - especially if it was less expensive.

I wonder if we should be blaming stress for the increased number of blooms that a mild N deficiency can induce. Greenhouse bedding crops generally start out under very close to a 3:1:2 ratio. At some point, the N is reduced to something like a 2:1:2 ratio. This inhibits vegetative growth and forces the plant to channel energy to reproductive growth - blooms/fruit. Though it probably isn't germane to this conversation, 'finishing' is usually done with nitrate fertilizers, which tend to promote smaller leaves and shorter internodes. The result, through nutrient manipulation, is a stocky, sturdy little plant that is sexually mature and appealing to the eye because it's in bloom.

Micromax is an excellent product, as is STEM, the difference being one is water soluble the other not. I haven't investigated the fertilizers you mentioned yet, so I don't know if the cost incentive is there to use the other fertilizers along with Micromax or STEM. I'll leave that to you. I still do use Micromax when I make my soils, BTW. I don't know if it's overkill or not, now that I've switched to FP, but even with someone like me, that tries to be as forward thinking as possible, old habits die hard.

Availability is the main issue. You'll usually only find MIcromax and SREM in 50 lb bags, at around $90/bag. If you DO find them in smaller volumes, you'll usually pay up to 10X the original purchase price. A little goes a LONG way - a cup of Micromax will treat 60 gallons of soil.

Unless the 2:2:3 ratio fertilizer you're talking about is significantly more appealing than any of the commonly found 20-20-20, what advantage is there in paying extra for the added pinch of K? Why not add a tsp of potash/gallon of soil, or use the 20-20-20 with the Pro-TeKt supplement and gain the added advantage of its silicon content? As you'll read later, if you're using coir or CHCs, the added K will be unnecessary.

Lots of ways to look at it I suppose - just dribbling ideas to see if you want to steal the ball. ;o)

FWIW - I went to look at the CNS product line.

All coir and CHC products are VERY high in K, so it would seem that if the CNS17 product was really developing a product specifically for use with those products, they would have lightened up on or eliminated the K content. As I reviewed the label, I honestly didn't see anything at all that would set this product apart as being any better than other 3:1:2 ratio products when using coir or CHCs. It does lack many of the minors, and you need to use 3X as much of the 3-1-2 as 9-3-6 - 8X as much 3-1-2 as 24-8-16 to get the same bang. I actually think MG 24-8-16 or 12-4-8 would be better choices.

Al

"I still do use Micromax when I make my soils, BTW. I don't know if it's overkill or not, now that I've switched to FP, but"

Al what do you mean by this? What are you putting your micromax into? The gritty mix or 5.1.1? If so how much and should I be doing the same?

Is it possible that I could eb improving the health of certain ones of mine even more, the ones I have come to you with in private? I have never used this Micrmax in any of my mixes ,and I wonder if yours are a bit more vibrant than mine in some ways, in my eyes..
This Micromax hardly ever comes up when making my soil mix.
Mike

epicseedman said "3-1-2 is said to be the "golden" ratio. not 3-1-4"

Yes, I should have been more clear. I was thinking that this might be equivalent to what Al was doing by adding Protekt, which increased the K. You don't get the increased P that way, but the N is less than the K.

If a 2-1-2 existed, that would be supreme, I think, but other than the lawn food and orchid fert (expensive), I couldn't find one. I am going to try adding the ProTekt to a few adult plants and see if I notice a difference.

tapla, you say you use pro-tekt to edjust the K level during bloom. does this mean you dont use it during veg? i would think you would want to use it during veg as well.

"But when the trigger comes of day-length shortening, the plants are being told by nature that the winter is coming and the end of their life is at hand. And so, at"
Here is a kicker.. What triggers flower to produce flowers in the spring? It can't be that they think they are dying..They produce flowers whether they get food or not..My cactus do for sure and my citrus are loaded with blooms just supplying a quarter teaspoon of FP at almost every watering with no K increase..I think by nature, certain plants are going to produce flowers at anytime of the year without fear of dying or feeling threatened..

Mike..:-)

I forgot something besides,

The nutrients necessary to produce the blooms for the spring is generally prepared before their rest period for many plants, no?

For example, liken it to a the polar bear..What does it do before it hibernates?

Many will tend to agree that not all plants produce offspring with just the feeling of being threatened..Therefore, the reason I feed my plants all year long, and in lower doses when their rest period arrives for some..

At any given time a healthy plant will produce offspring in a happy state.

Just some thoughts to confuse the heck out of ya..:-)

In a nutshell, I think that each plant has their own genetic make up to flower when they should when they are suppose too under normal circumstances if they are healthy....

Of course, we could expose them to fear, an unreasonably high amount of P, drug them up or use steroids as nurseries do, make their feet uncomfortable, almost drown them to death, cause some near death experience , or subject them to cruel and unusual punishment to produce blooms....

The last time I did any of this, I lost my plants shortly after a few weeks worth of abundant flowers flowers and fruit..I just feed them the right ratio of nutrients that they use, and they do better than ever before while in a secured mode..

Ok, anyone's turn..:-)

Tapla, what an incredible post. You really nailed it! So, if I understand correctly, in bloom you are giving a lighter dose of foliage pro and supplementing with the pro-tekt, thus lowering the total amount of N and raising K? Sorry if I am missing the blatantly obvious.

Mike, really interesting point about flowers during spring! I have no idea how they know when to flower. Perhaps they live on an opposite clock as those who go into flower when days get shorter? Spring flowers go into bloom when days get longer?

I used to give my Plumerias high P fertilizers in order to induce blooming. It didn't work, at all. I switched to a standard 3:1:2 ratio of N:P:K and now they bloom like crazy. I don't believe that high P fertilizers have any place in the garden.

I think I would say it like this: To promote blooms, one strategy is to reduce the o/a fertilizer supply (3:1:2 ratios) as a means of reducing the nitrogen supply so vegetative growth is inhibited, thereby causing the plant to direct its energy to reproductive, rather than vegetative growth. Since there is still adequate P available if we reduce the ideal amount of N supplied by 1/3 (they go hand in hand) but K is likely to be deficient, we need to find a way of supplementing K. We can do this through the inclusion of some potash when we make the soil, or by beginning to us a K supplement at the time we reduce the dosage of fertilizer.

Al

Ok...

Al, we here at my home are missing something, because if it is that easy to understand this thread, then we are feeling pretty dumb right about now.....

We are feeding our plants at every watering, 1/4 teaspoon of FP to every gallon of water...

Are you saying just to add Pro-tek into the same water and that lowers the N ratio?
Are you saying to use just Pro-tech and withhold the FP at times all together or to use a fertilizer with less N?

What is confusing?

"to reduce the o/a fertilizer supply (3:1:2 ratios) as a means of reducing the nitrogen supply so vegetative growth is inhibited, thereby"

It sounds like you are with holding Fp all together and using a lower N fertilizer.. It doesn't sound as easy as just adding Pro-tek to our regimand with FP. This time my mother, sister and I are stumped.

Please tell us here what to do, easily put with "our" regimend to induce flowering without hurting our plants? Like I said, we use 1/4 strentgh FP at every watering..

Sorry if we are not understanding completely on this one.

Mike

If you reduce the amount of 3:1:2 ratio fertilizer you supply in order to reduce the N your plants are getting, you're reducing everything - N,P,and K. There is a little cush built into the amount of P supplied, but not so much the amount of K. So, if all of a sudden you reduce the fertilizer you're supplying by 1/3 - so you're supplying the same amount of N you would be getting in a 2:1:2 ratio, you need to guard against a K deficiency.

You're putting much more emphasis on perfection than you need to. You may or may not end up with a K deficiency if you don't supplement. We really can't tell if we would even notice anything amiss by theorizing, and it will vary by plant(ing). Remember - lots of people raise healthy plants using just the commonly available soluble 20-20-20, a 1:1:1 ratio.

Basically, if you're using a 3:1:2 ratio fertilizer and you want to reduce the amount you're supplying to slow vegetative growth and promote blooms, it's a good idea, if you want the bases covered, to lightly supplement the amount of K your plants are getting.

I'll start another thread for those who really want that 2:1:2 ratio.

Al

Al,

Never mind..This is way over our heads for us today..

Thank you anyway for your kind offerings..

Mike

Mike,
imagine a bowl of Spaghetti and meatballs.
You've got the noodles, the sauce, and the meatballs.

If you remove some of the noodles, to cut carbs, you're going to lose some sauce and meatballs, too.

Because you like meatballs, you want to add a few back onto your plate to keep the noodle/meat ratio happy.

I don't know how well this analogy works, but maybe it'll help.


Josh

I have followed this thread to the headache stage. What happened to Liebig's Law of the Minimum? If you feed a plant too much of a food, it simply does not eat it. So you waste money providing food not required. Too bad people are not so selective, we could solve "childhood obesity", which actually goes beyond childhood! Al

Hi guys..

We understand the whole analogy..

Simply put, how do you lower the N if you are using Foliage Pro? Strain it out?

It is being suggested here to to reduce the N ratio, simply put.
What does withholding the fertilizer by 1/3 mean? How much FP per gallon then and how often?

I would like to completely understand how to withhold N when I am using FP which is 9 3 6..That is all...TO simple to get a simple answer I guess..I guess we here at my home are missing the blatant obvious too.

Honestly, I don't think anyone here can give an example using FP as I do...

HOW DO YOU LOWER IT USING THE FOLIAGE PRO?

Use Foliage Pro and add Pro-tek at every watering to encourage blossom?
Like, use a drop per gallon, 1/3 of 1/4 capful and that's it..?
Like, separate the FP and lower the N content in a science lab?

Please keep it simple..Does anyone get the point?

Josh I know how to remove meatballs, and add more pasta and how carbs work..You don't remove N with a spoon out of FP to make less of it..

Look, I do not how to do it?

I understand what withholding Nitrogen causes, and what more P causes, and what more or less K causes.

I challenge anyone to to tell me how to do it and put it simpler terms using FP as an example..What routine do you suggest for someone like me who uses it faithfully if I want to "promote" blooms..No one has thus far..It makes me wonder..

Mike,
Instead of the 1/4 tsp per gallon of foliage pro that your plants usually get, just give them 1/3 of the 1/4 tsp. per gallon. Maybe use a dropper and see how many drops are in a 1/4 tsp, then figure out how many drops 1/3 of that would be. However many drops that turns out to be, add in the same amount of pro-tekt.

This is what I got from the discussion, but Al and anyone else, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Kashu:

Thank you for trying..

At that dose in the mixes I use, my trees would starve to death and decline all around..They would fail me before ever putting out any blooms..I don't think it is that easy, and that Al would deliberately dance around such a simple answer...

We, my family, consider Al a very good friend and respect him very much and I personally want to thank him for everything thus far..

I also know he cares very much about my plants and my succeess and wouldn't deliberately let us be frustrated by not supplying an answer as easy as that to many who are new to this forum or can not grasp the meaning of some of his explanations..I beleieve that he will start a new thread explaining in more detail for those who choose to manipulate their plants to do what they want, to "promote blooms if they choose too..

Looks like another thread for those who really want that 2:1:2 ratio,what to use, and how to with the fertilizers I and many others are using will be explained it more precise instructions... We will patiently wait and hopefully find what we are looking for there....

I am confident Al will be here for those of us that still have yet to walk away with confidence in what we need to do and the know how.. I had over a dozen people read this thread, and they all agrred that it was not something they could understand..Many got headaches...Being as humble as he is, I am sure he understands what we are meaning here..

Sorry for causing any discomfort on this thread with my questions and all the concerns my friends have prodded me to ask here....
I just wanted to make sure I got it right with the fertilizers I have been using and how to tinker with them to achieve the lower N theory correctly with my routine which I know Al is fully aware of....

I walk away completely disatisfied andn yet completely appreciative unless Al invites me back to this discusiion or decides to help me privately in which I would consider an honor...

Mike

Hey, Mike!

Sorry that my spaghetti analogy was so vague!
Hopefully I explained it better in the e-mail I sent ;)

Here's the short answer, I think:
You don't strain out or filter the Nitrogen from the FP itself.
You simply reduce ALL of the nutrients, and then add back a bit of Potassium.


Josh

Josh , we are still scratching our heads..

I will e-mail you..:-)

Mike

Let me try again ;)

1. Fertilize normally.

2. When you reduce your FP fertilizer per gallon, add Pro-tekt to the water.


Josh

Josh,

Once I know how much FP and Pro-tek it takes per gallon of water at every watering to promote blossoms if I and my friends choose to do so, then I will get this whole thread and put all things together...How can I help others if I can m=not be made to understand..I think Al knows where I am coming from..

Mike.

E-mail sent, Mike! ;)
I think we're getting closer....

Josh

Oops, I meant to say give 2/3 of your normal fp dose instead of 1/3 in my post above. You want to reduce N by 1/3.

Let's say your regular fertilizer program is 3 parts of 9-3-6 in a gallon of water.

To reduce the N supplied and slow vegetative growth, you start supplying 2 parts of 9-3-6 per gallon.

By reducing the CONCENTRATION of the solution to 2 parts per gallon, you cut the amount of all the nutrients by 1/3, not just the N.

This reduced concentration still has enough P to keep your plants happy, but not quite enough K, so you need to add a little more K by adding potash to the soil, or by supplementing with Pro-TeKt or another K-containing product to be sure all the bases are covered.

**************************

This is more about theory than anything - for those who want to manipulate the growth habits of certain plants by reducing the N supply and still be sure they are not inviting a K deficiency along with the planned deficiency of N. It's nothing to get frantic about.

Al

Ahhhhhhhhhhh!

Mike..:-)

Decided to search on different combinations of a 2-1-2 or thereabouts. Look at the link below and find the Hydroponic formula- 10-5-10 formulas with micros.

Here is a link that might be useful: Click here for QuickGrow Nutrients

There you go - issue solved. Strong work! ;o)

All I wonder is why the chlorine content is so high?

Whew!

Al

I ordered a packet to try it.

Al, if my memory serves me, didn't you once say switching a 10-10-10 would accomplish this cheaply?

Larry

Yes - a 1:1:1 ratio just has twice the P of a 2:1:2 ratio.

It should be pointed out that it's not the fertilizer that changes the N supply, it's the grower. You can apply as much N with a 1:1:1 ratio as you can with a 3:1:2 ratio if you're using leaf color as a guide. You need to have a combination of experience and understanding about how nutrition works to effectively induce and manage a N deficiency to get the desired results. Changing fertilizer ratios is just a tool that helps you keep from over/under-supplying the other nutrients.

Al