Do you really need 3 seating areas so close to one another?

I would second Carrie and look at your aisle clearances. Not sure if the seating at the island runs into the seating at the table when chairs are pulled out. I also second the taking the range and hood off the island.

I have the GE range but with a single oven (duel fuel) and love it. I also didnt want wall ovens but decided against the double oven model you're showing here because the lower oven is just so so low and I tried it out in store and it was really uncomfortable using it esp with a heavy dish. The single oven 30" model I can fit 2 or even 3 cookie sheets and with convection it heats evenly - I did 3 trays of roasted veg for thanksgiving.

1. The range in the island is a problem. Why have a big hood, which won't suck up GOSS (grease, odors, steam, smoke) as well as a wall-mounted unit blocking that nice window over the sink? I would switch sink and range and have narrow windows on each side of the wall hood which should still be 6" wider than the ranage. Definitely don't go with a downdraft.

2. I love your ceilings and suspect you're right about needing a soffit but I don't have much experience and expertise in moldings and such. This might take some googling for photos of other kitchens with coffered ceilings to see how they've done it.

3. Move the hood and range and this problem is solved. You will want a good hood and there are a lot more options for wall mounts. My only experience with a quality hood is with Zephyr. I'm pleased.

4. Overall, I really like your plan. However, I am concerned about your traffic flow. Things look too crowded to me. How much space do you have where I put the red lines? You need 60" between table and counter seating and minimum of 48" between back of chairs and table chairs. However, 60" would also be more comfortable there. You may have to give up the ottomans or go with a narrower table or nix the island seating or some other tweak to ensure there is room for people to be in these spaces and have room to move around. Since there is an eating nook and dining table, I would nix the island seating myself. I just really don't see any room for people in the current set-up. (Click on both photos to see whole picture in bigger view. For some reason, they're cut off.)

I think it would make it feel more open and easier for people to converse with the cook if the wall behind the nook was moved back and there was an open shelf behind the people seated on that side. This way the cook(s) could see the person sitting in the seat by the window easier. I think it would be cool to put outside storage under that shelf. It could come in handy.

I flipped the counter/sink/WD in the laundry room. I would prefer the sink closer to the door in case someone was working in the yard and needing to wash hands before entering the house. And easier to pop something in the sink to soak before washing.

You also might want to consider having the powder room door swing out. If someone should have a health issue while in the bathroom and fall to the floor, it would be hard to access them if the door can't be open fully because they are in the way.

ETA: I agree with Carrie B and lenzai about aisle widths and not having range and sink back-to-back unless the aisle is minimum 48" but, preferably, 54".

You might want to consider raising the counter in the laundry room and putting the washer and dryer under it to gain more work space. Electrolux and Frigidaire both make full size units that are designed to go under counters and can be pushed against the wall and each other. The Electrolux are a little nicer and bigger, the Frigidaire are a little smaller and not quite as tall or deep.

I've added aisle dimensions to the floorplan as requested:

I agree that the space between the sink and range is too little. I think I can add 6" by reducing the overhang (for the seating) at the island.

I don't expect the dining room table to be used much. I think most meals will be in the banquette or out on the covered porch. I don't expect people to be sitting at both the dining room table and the island simultaneously. Of course it could happen, but it will be so rare that I'm not going to give that unlikely scenario additional square footage.

The big issue is going to be coming to terms with the consensus opinion that the range should go against an exterior wall, and that the island should be one-level. I *love* two tier islands! And I love being able to look out a window when you're at a sink. And I'd hate to lose wall cabinet space by putting the range against an exterior wall.

Please give me more feedback and opinions about this. Thank you!

With the range on the island even with the hood whatever your cooking will smell up the whole lovely open concept place. With the sink at the island you can do all your prep there and chat with people and only turn occasionally to the range. Most likely unless you do a lot of stir fry, you will spend significantly less time at the range than the prep area. I think you can manage with upper cabinet space even with giving up 36" or 42" to the hood over the range.

You can also do a drawer microwave next to the fridge and have a full size upper in there.

Agree with everything said so far.

I am in the same situation as you. Building our "last hurrah" house on the west coast of FL. We decided to eliminate the extra table and go with just a dining table and counter seating because like you we figured if we're entertaining, we'll be mostly doing so outside on the lanai. My space between my island and my dining table are also tight but the difference is my great room is a separate room from the kitchen/dining area so when entertaining we have the full great room to use.

As for the cooktop on the island, I think you're looking for trouble. Most of your time is not spent in front of the stove, but by the sink prepping. By moving your sink to the island it will allow you to interact with any guests, and/or watch tv or look out your lanai. Plus you won't have the problem with capturing grease, fumes etc. I put my cooktop on the perimeter and put windows on either side.

Additionally if you do all drawers, instead of lower cabinets with pullouts you'll discover how much more space you'll have and how little you need for upper cabinets. If you'd like to see the discussion for my kitchen HERE it is.

If you make the seating overhang at the island too narrow, it will just be uncomfortable for people to sit at and the stools will stick out and still take up space. That really doesn't resolve anything. And if you stick with the bi-level island and reduce the overhang, switch to plastic so glasses and plates that get pushed off the narrow ledge don't break.

Kitchen Numbers: Breakfast Bars and Islands | 64 Important Numbers Every Homeown · More Info

You said "I don't expect the dining room table to be used much. I think most meals will be in the banquette or out on the covered porch. I don't expect people to be sitting at both the dining room table and the island simultaneously. Of course it could happen, but it will be so rare that I'm not going to give that unlikely scenario additional square footage."

So, clearly, the solution is to not have a dining room table inside the house. Seriously. We know people with spaces crowded with furniture like you are planning and they are not pleasant homes to visit. For those of us who prefer more personal space, it can be downright annoying. I have been known to go for walks in the middle of visits at such places, even in the pouring down rain, just to get some breathing space and calm down my flustered insides enough to go back into the chaos. I love visiting with people, even in large groups, but I don't like having to move every few seconds so someone can slide passed, getting poked with elbows, jostled, and all the other goings on in such crowded places.

I would do something like this. Look at the nice, wide aisle you have in-between sink and range. And the green lines illustrate the clear paths for walking space without crowding people who may be sitting. The attached seating counter to the island can be table, counter or bar height, whichever you prefer and feel is more comfortable for your guests. Whatever height they are, you can prep meals or clean-up at the sink and visit with them. Just remember that the older we get, the harder it is to climb onto higher seating.

Ignore all the shapes and such off to the right that I forgot to delete, lol. And I forgot to type it in but I figure the red arrow is closer to 60" giving you plenty of room before the two work spaces.

I also feel that your proposed living area seating is cramped too close together. Especially between the chair/ottoman and couch. I'm not clear how people will get in and out of the seating area. It looks like only the chair/ottoman and the other chair have a space big enough for comfortable entry. Eliminating the dining table will give you space to pull those seating areas just a tad farther out from the wall so there is more breathing space and more points of entry.

Funky Camper: LOL! My guests will be fleeing my parties!!! Thanks for the feedback and for the good laugh. I recognize that more space, and more defined spaces, are desirable, but I'm reticent to give up an actual dining table, or the ability to sit at an island, or the open plan. Everything is a trade-off. I appreciate the candid feedback: it helps me challenge my assumptions and make better decisions.

CP Artist: Thanks for the link to your own kitchen thread. Very informative and great information there. Sarasota?

Updated plan and renderings are below. Here's what I did:

• Swapped range and sink. Range and hood are now against exterior wall, sink and dishwasher are now in island.
• Staggered sink and range: they are no longer back-to-back. I decided on a single, larger window to one side of the range, instead of two narrower windows flanking the range.
• I read another thread about how great microwave drawers are (under the counter) and I'm going to try to do that somewhere, but I haven't placed it in the plan yet. Can anyone recommend a location for this MW drawer?
• I replaced the base and wall cabinet (and original MW) to the left of the frig with a floor-to-ceiling pantry cabinet.
• I added a soffit over the wall cabinets which the coffered ceiling ties into.
• I kept the island as two-tier, with the bar-height seating. Now that the sink is in the island, we'd like that 6" height difference to hide the dirty dishes which accumulate on the counter near the sink. I reduced the bar overhang to 16". This is 4" more the recommended overhang in Funky Camper's post, above. This gets the aisle between island and wall cabinets to 4', and maintains the 4' 3" between island counter and dining room table.
• Any suggestions on the best place to work a small TV into this layout? Preferably so that it is viewable from both the island and banquette?

Would love to here more feedback/suggestions on this revised layout. Thanks so much!

Note: With the single, larger window to the left of the range, there is still a sense of symmetry, as both the range/hood and window are within one of the coffered ceiling "sections", and together they line up with the island.

Most people recommend having the microwave near the fridge/freezer as that is where most food that gets popped into the micro comes from. You might consider putting it in the end of the island facing the fridge or in the pantry cabinet to the left of it.

Since you said empty nesters and Florida, I think you should at least consider the thought that at some time, some one will need more room to move around be it with a walker, chair or cane. This could be a benefit when it comes time to resell. We are an aging society. All it takes is one slip or fall or bunion (ugh) to see the value of just a few inches.

Yes, Sarasota. :)

Have you considered making the eat in area in the kitchen larger instead of having the separate table in the living room area?

Additionally, have you thought how much more difficult it would be to get in and out of bench seating in your dining area if one of you needs a walker, etc? Maybe instead of built in's on either side, do a built in at the back wall, widen the width and have regular chairs instead on the other walls.

Additionally, you mentioned about the higher bar seating. At some point you may have to change that out too. I know my mother, once she developed parkinsons would never have been able to get up and down off a bar stool, but she would be able to manage a counter height stool. My Dad is frail now and no way he could manage a bar stool.

The problem I see is you have the large table which is fine for now, and you have the built in eat in area in the kitchen which is also fine for now, but if something happens, you won't have enough room to maneuver around the table, won't be able to use the bar height stools and won't be able to maneuver in and out of the banquet seating.

Personally I would put the microwave on the end of the island in the last cabinet. Switch it to a 24" cabinet and the sharp MW will fit fine. BTW: All the drawer microwaves are made by sharp so not worth spending extra for a fancy name.

As for hiding dishes, have you considered a farmhouse sink instead?

No my setting is open but I'll message you right now.

"remember that the older we get, the harder it is to climb onto higher seating."

this is true. I quit getting up on higher seating about 15 yrs ago - at age 50 because of a disability. It makes me a bit unsteady, so I don't take a chance on it. Better safe than sorry... and you never know when something like that will appear in your life or that of a loved one (including friends). I like my feet on the ground - or close to it.

I also thought of the table up against the outer side of the island for this kitchen. It would solve a number of wants w/out the problems. I also don't like 'booth' type seating anymore. It's ok once in a while at a restaurant but wouldn't want it on a regular basis.

I've made some further changes to the kitchen based on the advice above, namely:

1. I'm now going with a single-level, counter-height island

2. I've moved the clean-up sink to the exterior wall, under the window, and I've added a prep sink in the island

3. I added a microwave drawer in the island on the side closest to the frig. I see the counter top above the microwave being the main landing area when taking things out of the frig, with the prep sink immediately next to that.

I'm keeping the banquette for now. The above advice is that it is unnecessary/redundant and perhaps cramped seating. It's a feature that I've always wanted. It's designed to be cozy (in this case cramped = good :). But depending on the cost to build it could be omitted. Game-day decision.

The drawer-microwave is in the island to the left of the prep sink (closest to the refrigerator). I plan a pull-out garbage cabinet to the right of the prep sink.

Revised great room floor plan with key measurements (from above comments) shown in red:

Looking at kitchen from dining area. That's a 42" wide window over the clean-up sink. The island is about 9' wide, such that there is a solid 5' of counter space to one side of the prep sink:

Looking at refrigerator from banquette. That's a 21" wide x 24" deep floor-to-ceiling pantry cabinet to the left of the frig:

Looking at banquette from refrigerator:

Questions:

1. How did I do? Am I listening to your feedback?

2. If I put a garbage disposer in the prep sink (in the island), where does the on/off switch go?

3. Do you agree that the best place for a pull-out trash cabinet is to the right of the prep sink? And the best place for the microwave drawer is to the left of the prep sink?

4. How many pendant lights should I have over my 9' wide island? Three, as shown, or just two? (assume they'll each have a single 100 watt incandescent bulb on a dimmer)

5. What else? This forum is awesome - please keep the feedback coming! Thank you!

One more - Here's looking out across the great room from the kitchen:

I would want a bigger island sink than what is pictured and trash at both sinks. (I can't see if that is already planned or not.) Will you have enough kitchen storage? I love seating and all the seating options you have. But, if you think you could use an extra drawer stack, you could easily reduce the island seating by 2 for a few extra drawers or a cabinet. Also, for the banquette, I have seen some great ideas for storage under the bench seating.

I would live in your space tomorrow though! Very nice.

I think there is a pic on houzz of a banquette seating area in which they added storage drawers under the seats and maybe thin cabinets inside one wall. I bet if you do a search you will find it. I thought it was a clever use of wasted space. I also think you have made really valid improvements to the plans.

I know you seem set on a dining room but if you look at future trends, they are like dinosaurs. I have one and it gets used a couple of times a year but the way things are set up it can take the overflow from the media room. Many people want to keep certain aspects of their life the same when they relocate to FLA and I understand. I grew up where you are planning on settling down. I still have family there and no one uses their dining room. Just remember that it is a very much relaxed life style. People go to church in flip flops for pete's sake. Much more entertaining goes on outside or in the great room of kitchen/family area than a dining room. But I do understand and see your point. Did you or can you see if you can have a regular sized doorway to a bathroom?

Garbage Disposal Switch...you use an "air switch" that's embedded into the counter. See it in the picture below - in the upper right corner of the sink.

If the boxes are 1' x 1', you don't have a 48" aisle b/w the island and perimeter. You have more like a 42" to 45" aisle - even less in front of the range.

The banquette will be cramped when sitting across from each other - lack of sufficient leg room for two adults. However, if you like it, you have the DR table b/w the Kitchen and the Great Room, so you should be fine.

I would not eliminate the DR table there - that's much better seating for meals (I'm assuming that's the DR someone was referring to as "they are like dinosaurs").

The only DRs that are "dinosaurs" are those that are never used b/c there's sufficient seating elsewhere - you don't have that sufficient seating, so yours is necessary!

It's the isolated, out of the way DRs that are less popular right now. Ours is used every single day - it's directly connected to the Kitchen and we don't have a separate nook. I'd rather have that than a nook. A DR can be dressed up/down, depending on the occasion, a nook is just a nook - informal. (In our case, there used to be a wall b/w the DR & Kitchen, but we removed most of it and put in a peninsula so there's some separation.)

A storage option for your banquette - "morgue drawers!"

Morgue Drawer Banquette Question/Help

KitchenKelly's banquette "morgue drawer" storage.

Here's a classic GW thread:

Oh Nooooooo! Someone left the morgue drawers open.

In the latest version I think the clean-up (big) sink and the range are too close together and no matter whether you have 1, 2, or 3+ adults/kids trying to work in the kitchen you'd want more separation. Try adding one more foot between the two. I think this would also help you get double door uppers on either end of the wall rather than the dual triple doors you have depicted now.

It would look better if there were cabinets on each side of the sink and range.

Move the range down and put a cabinet b/w the window and hood. The closer the uppers are to the hood, the more effective your venting will be b/c the uppers will help corral the steam/smoke/odors/grease/fumes/etc. to the hood.

Now, you have more workspace b/w the range and sink and you won't have a competition for floor space b/w users of the MW and the range or even the island sink and range.

Is your hood at least 6" wider than your range and 24" deep? While 6" wider is always recommended, it becomes more important when the upper cabs next to the hood are not pretty much butted up against the hood.

You really need at least 60" b/w the table and the island. That is potentially a busy aisle (depending on the path people take to the porch). I know you don't plan to have people seated at both the island and table st the same time, but your plans don't matter - it's what actually happens, and you will have them in both places! Many people find raised seating uncomfortable (even counter-height) and the banquette (b/c it's so tight) will not be comfortable for anyone who isn't very agile/flexible. Those people will gravitate to the DR table if they want to stay inside to visit with you while you're cooking

Follow-up questions and comments for buehl, meyerk9, Stan Z, nightowl:

The banquette: Why does everyone think it's so small? It's 6' 6" wide (78"), with two benches flanking a 36" wide table. I've based it off the following recommended measurements:

Island Prep Sink: I currently have a 24" base cabinet designated for the island prep sink. What size prep sink would you recommend, and would I need a larger cabinet to accomodate it?

Dining Room Table: I agree with everything said. That's why I did an open-concept dining "area" vs. a dedicated dining room. And, like buehl, I intend the dining table to be a multi-use space: for folding laundry, sewing, puzzles, games, computer, etc... What fun to be in the center of the great room and being able to see the TV and be near people in the kitchen when doing those things.

Exterior Wall Cabinets, Hood, Window: It sounds like the consensus opinion is to have more space between the sink and the range, and to add cabinets between them, and to have the cabinets go right up to the hood on both sides. Do you think the cabinets should go right up to the window casing (trim) as well?

Thanks!

Here's what the kitchen wall looks like after implementing above feedback. Each end has a 36" double cabinet. That's a 21" single cabinet in between window and hood. 36" hood over 30" slide-in range. Sink in 36" base cabinet. Made window larger than it was before for balance and symmetry (now a 60" wide window). There will be white plantation shutters over it. Dishwasher is to the left of sink because person who does the dishes is left-handed!

DW...the left makes the most sense functionally b/c your Prep & Cooking Zones are on the other side and your dish storage will be on the left - near the banquette & porch dining as well as a clear shot to the DR table w/o having to cross into the Prep and Cooking Zones.

Note that handedness doesn't really apply to DW location. I'm right handed and have had it both ways - no difference whatsoever! (MY DH agrees and he does most of the dishes theses days!)

Aisle b/w island and range wall...b/c you have two prep zones and the Cooking Zone on the same aisle, it would be best if the aisle is at least 48" wide. Looking at your grid on your layout, I don't think that aisle is that wide.

DR table and aisle b/w table & island thoughts...

• Instead of having a 42" wide DR table, consider a 39" wide. You'll gain 3" in that aisle.

• Since the DR and Great Room are close to being one room, if you find the aisle b/w the DR table & island is too narrow, you can always shift the DR table a few inches toward the Great Room when someone is using the DR table.

Dining room table:. I'm trying to position exactly in the center of one of the coffered ceiling sections. I'll play with the ceiling and/or can shift the table when we have company.

Personally, I'd prefer the cleanup sink on the island. I know others don't prefer that but I hate prepping and then having to shlep the stuff across the floor to the cooktop. Seems like more work and more crossing over. The first is your current layout. I numbered the steps from fridge to water, to prep to cooking to cleanup.

In the second version, dishes can be stacked over the mw, but any overflow after dinner can also be stacked on the island.

With the cleanup sink in the island, dirty dishes are front and center/on display on the island.

In addition, anyone sitting at the island will have dirty dishes in their faces.

It also means prepping is going to be facing the wall, something most people would rather not do - that's one of the reasons so many people put Prep Zones in the island instead of on the perimeter. Most people would rather take an extra step or two to have a better view.

Remember, 70% (or more) of the time/work done in the Kitchen is prepping. Cleaning up is 20% or less - why put a less-used work zone in the prime location?

Putting a large sink in an island also reduces its usefulness for large cooking/baking projects, staging food, etc.

We will have to agree to disagree.

I guess it depends on what you consider the better view and the prime location?

I have a window with a great view above my prep area which I only look out when I need to pause for a quick break from chopping or to figure out my next step. I don't like to talk much or gaze at views much while prepping after I almost lost the tip of a finer once while doing that. My brain can't handle visiting while prepping because then I either leave out ingredients or just plain keep forgetting where I'm at. It takes 2-3 times as long for me to prep if I'm visiting or window-gazing. I'd rather focus on the prep and get it done. Family knows to limit interactions with me while prepping beyond quick statements. That's simply not a good time for me to chat. If we're entertaining, I choose menus that don't require last minute prep/cooking just to avoid having to prep and visit at the same time.

And, like cpartist, I prefer to wash, slide food to prep, then slide food to cook. I don't like carrying prepped food across the floor either

Someday, my clean-up sink will be on my peninsula facing my dining table. This was the best place for me to be able to keep my DW open while cooking. Since I tend to plop things in when done with it while prepping and cooking, most dirty items will already be in the DW before sitting down to a meal. After eating, I'll be able to stand at the dining table and just pick up plates, turn and place them next to the clean-up sink without walking anywhere. Quick and easy. Then dishes will immediately be scraped and put in the DW. If the DW is full, it will be a quick scrape before setting them in my 32" wide, 9" deep sink. I figure this will hide them pretty well from any visitors until the DW is free. And I can scrape and load while visiting without losing a finger or trying to remember what needs to be done next. Clean-up is pretty much an auto-pilot activity. Prep is not. At least not for me.

So I totally get what cpartist is saying and tend to agree with her. I also recognize that this is an YMMV thing.

I shifted the coffered ceiling, and slightly changed its grid pattern, so that I could shift the dining room table and island resulting in better/recommended aisle clearances:

Really starting to come together as I see it. As for a TV in the kitchen it won't work well unless you are planning on not having the other TV on. Noise carries too much with an open area like you have. Almost seems like it would be better to have the TV on in the great room and then just put a speaker somewhere in the kitchen so you can hear it without having to turn the volume up so high in the great room. With a large TV in the great room I'd think you'd be able to see it about as well as a small one usually used in the kitchen.

Is the patio outside covered so the banquet area won't get direct sun? I'm in Texas and I'm thinking that area will be pretty uncomfortable even if it doesn't get direct sun. Make sure you plan your HVAC well so it doesn't get too hot in there.

I like that you now have 5' between the two seating areas. It will make traffic flow through there much easier. 4' is good behind the living room, too.

I like your nook and don't think it's too small.

I don't have the expertise many others here have but, to my amateur eyes, it looks like it's going to be a fantastic home.

Do you have anything cool planned for your outside living spaces like an outdoor kitchen?

Your dining areas seat about 14 people, but your living area seats 8 (with one each on the ottomans). You could have a sectional, which would help. During a big gathering, some people will have to remain in the dining areas or wander off onto the back porch. Nothing wrong with that, if it's your intent.

It also means prepping is going to be facing the wall, something most people would rather not do - that's one of the reasons so many people put Prep Zones in the island instead of on the perimeter. Most people would rather take an extra step or two to have a better view.

Or you can move the window to in front of the prep area which is what I did with my kitchen. Either way is fine. It's a matter of personal preference.

When I have company, most of my prep is done well before company arrives so for me, I'd just as soon look out my front window.

Cleanup is done as I chat with people after dinner so it gives me time to put dishes in the DW while chatting.

Before I didn't have time to read through the threads after beuhl but I do things exactly like funkycamper. I too clean up as I go. (Actually as I prep, DH is helping clean up so for us, the fact I'll be on the perimeter while he cleans up at the island is even better. I'm not crossing past him and he won't be crossing past me. :)

Additionally as we age, it is easier to not have to carry as many things while prepping. My DM was using a walker but could still prep and then throw the stuff into a pot. However there would have been no way for her to carry it across the aisle.

Keywest, have you considered using pocket sliders for the back of the house? Instead of two separate sliders, one large one that pockets into the wall? You can see it on my house plan. It's what I'm planning on doing.

"...My DM was using a walker but could still prep and then throw the stuff into a pot. However there would have been no way for her to carry it across the aisle."

That's a good point CPArtist, especially if this is intended to be a "forever" home. I think the best of both worlds is to have two prep zones - one on the island and one on the perimeter!

With the range moved to the right, KeyWest now has just that!

I like all the changes very much! I would keep that cozy nook for sure. Love that!

The only thought I had is that I would maybe shift the range a little further down to the right. Basically about center to the coffered ceiling beam above. Then I would make those two cabinets on either side of the hood equal size and opening out away from the range. This was something my KD suggested for my cabinets flanking my range hood. It makes it so easy to open them and grab your oils or spices or whatever, while standing at the stove. The cabinet doors not opening in your face if that makes sense. Plus it give you a little extra space if you are using the bigger sink for prep.

Anyways, just my 2cents, but really, I think it looks pretty great as is. This is going to be a fabulous space. Congrats!