This was the first sketch but I thought the kitchen was too small and I didn't like that there was no table in the kitchen.

I think providing a little more background will yield better responses. Where are the entrances into the home-garage and day to day entry from vehicle...as well, guest and visitor entry... is it a family area with typical 3-4 bedrooms? are the bedrooms all upstairs.....can you anticipate a home office or study room for computer/homework activities? Don't see that here. In other words, kids who sit at islands as youngsters will soon want spaces "by themselves" on their tech gadgets...within proximity to mom/dad is a good concept....it could be something worthwhile to add into the mix. I might backtread a little and think about resale with the completely open plan yet lacking some differentiating spaces for medium to large sized family. Yet you haven't described the basement-maybe there is a finished area there. Just clue everyone in a little more.

I'm a little confused. Are you showing your entire first floor with 2 layout options? In other words, as you stated above ("we are gutting the entire house down to the studs so we can move windows, plumbing and electric"), are you willing to put the rooms anywhere on that first floor? By they way, you lost a powder room on the bottom layout. That would be a no-go in my book.

Using the 17 x 24' space, and guessing at the entry widths, this is a rough draft to fit in everything you mentioned. I don't think you have room for a peninsula, island with seating for 4, and a dining table:

1 square = 12" Click to enlarge.

New to kitchens? Read me first.

NKBA guidelines.

@herb. The main entrance will be to the left if the kitchen right before the mud room. There is also an entrance into the mud room which I am anticipating being the go to entrance. There will be a basement the size of the house as well. It might take a year to finish after we redo the house. I could also make the LR off of the family room a computer room/den.

on the first plan that the architect sketched I could also make the LR a computer room all the kids will have small bedrooms upstairs approximately 10x12 so they will have their own spaces

Which plan do you prefer?

Thank you for your input.

@ck. yes. I am showing 2 layout options that the architect sketched up. You are correct he didn't put in a half bath on one of the plans which I told him was a no go. I also said I didn't need a formal dining room but I would like a table or banquet in the kitchen.

Yes I am willing to put rooms anywhere. The only problem is I can't move the steps because the layout up stairs works with the 5 small bedrooms and 3 full baths.

with a pool and lots of activity in the back of home, I think I'd prefer the kitchen in the back..probably along with a great room concept. Leave the formal smaller living room in the front....I'd probably change the way into living/dining zone to come off main hallway......one opening with French doors or something like that.... smaller dedicated dining "area" within living area maybe with a separation created by built in serving hutch for large family meals or entertaining......space gained could be a smaller office/computer room coming off family room. Why does it say "new addition" over on left of sketch?? Trying to figure out how you want traffic flow I'd eliminate the 2 front entrances-you show one directly into living room and one into foyer.....stick with one nice large foyer main entrance....are you adding on as well?? Does the nanny co-mingle all the time.....you don't want a reading/resting room for her on this floor?? You can redo the kitchen and family room shown at back of house to get what you want as far as storage and the proper island for yourselves.....first I just think the overall delineation of spaces and traffic patterns have to be created. Bigger coatcloset...halfbath??

Here's the plan with a different layout, and more room for a table, but I think you probably want the kitchen open to the family room.

I agree with herbflavor about the location of the kitchen--with all the activity and entertaining in the back, the kitchen would be more convenient where you can watch the kids. Here's a rough idea for that, too (on right). If you leave out the optional wall, you can have a table that extends for larger groups.

One more quick idea, with the right wall m/l flipped:

@herb I love your idea of the kitchen in the back and placing French doors when you come in to the LR off the main entrance.

Where would you put the built in hutch? Where it says addition is where we are adding the new addition. On the right hand side we are going out 20 ft and on the left side we are going 16 feet. I eliminated the door coming into the LR. There is only one front door now on the left front siding entering by the mud room.

@mama i love the first plan. Do you think I will be able to get my kitchen table there. It is 7ft by 3ft? Also could I make the peninsula where the DW is bigger? Maybe to where we start the addition start the peninsula make the dining room end where the LR starts making the LR a little smaller? Does that make sense?

in the FR what wall would you put the fireplace on? The wall facing the kitchen or a see through one on the back wall facing the patio?

thanks again everyone.

you have a broad scope of what is going on here. I would definitely post the whole nine yards of this on the building forum or remodeling forum. People post their plans here for kitchen details and particulars, and the other site for layouts and plans in general ... might be wise. Do you have an inspiration picture or two...people get that from HOUZZ website---enter a search phrase like "kitchen and great room"....." open kitchen with island.".....or "living/dining room" ......people actually collect pics in a folder and study options that way for a while. Also, knowing about a STYLE that you desire might drive some of the decisions you have to make...have you done your own personal style assessment ...either something already that the home possesses as far as character....or a way you want it to evolve?? people do anything and everything these days...I think it's good to have a direction/theme, however-it will help and guide you.

is the 'addition' space already included in your layout as shown above? if it is in 'addition to' your layout above, where will it be opened into the old part? what will that space be used for?

Many do post here to get the kitchen area defined. I wouldn't trust 'building' anymore than an architect to lay out a kitchen for function and form. That will include how it flows with the other rooms around it.

@desertsteph the layout includes the new addition. The kitchen and LR on the picture posted is the new addition. We are adding 20 ft on the right side and 16 ft on the left. It's very early for you to be commenting lol. I usually wake up and see your comments.

@herb I posted in building forum last week and just now posted in remodeling. Thank you for your suggestions. I did do a personal assessment. I am pretty good at knowing what I want. My last house with my ex husband was dark and traditional but this new house I want white bright and clean. I am using gray polished concrete floors on the whole main floor and white kitchen cabinets. I'm going towards that be achy, shabby chic look.

" It's very early for you to be commenting lol. I usually wake up and see your comments"

what? lol! Is that because I posted before an evening meal time? what time zone are you in? (so I know what time you are 'waking up' in). I have been sleeping late lately so not functioning much before late afternoon - early evening. (but then I'm usually still awake at 2a.m. AZ time!) some might say not even functional after that - lol!

Are there other things that you want (that you didn't already post)? If so, post them so they can be considered for space. Have you thought about 2 dwashers? Do you think you'd have the need for 2?

I certainly understand the going from 'dark' to light and bright. When I was married we lived in a very wooded area - sort of on a cliff on 2 sides (with a bit of land below and a creek). My X would never cut (or even trim) any of the trees. When I moved, I went to more open, light and bright - eventually to AZ where there is lots of sun!

Have you thought about keeping the front area for a nice seating area (for visiting with other adults right off of the foyer) with another large table on the end closer to what you show as the FR, putting the kitchen in the FR area with your eat in table and using the LR area for your family tv area?

the 2nd table would be a good place for kids to do homework (close to where you'd be fixing meals) or work a puzzle or play a board game. That would keep those things off of your 'in kitchen' table so it's clear for meals. As your kids grow and have friends (boyfriends/girlfriends) over for dinner or a holiday meal, you could just expand into that area w/the 2nd table.

It'd also spread out people if you have company over, give a space for the kids and another space for a few adults to sit and talk a bit - and still allow a large kitchen area for your family.

Here's a plan with a 7' table, wider peninsula with seating, but no island. Since you'd have generous floor space in this plan, you could make the counters on the the right side of the room deeper, to close the gap between the fridge and oven wall, and to provide more counter space. The big disadvantage is the pantry is off in the corner, and another negative is the lack of landing space for the oven. If you left out the peninsula, a pantry could be where the oven is drawn, and the oven could be at the end of the right side run.

********************************

"@mama i love the first plan. Do you think I will be able to get my
kitchen table there. It is 7ft by 3ft? Also could I make the peninsula
where the DW is bigger? Maybe to where we start the addition start the
peninsula make the dining room end where the LR starts making the LR a
little smaller? Does that make sense?"

I think you mean this plan?

@mama. You got my head spinning! Lol. I keep going back and forth with both of your plans. There are things I like about both. I really like an island bc I like to roll out cookies with the kids. I like the banquet seating in the corner. I like the fridge and freezer on the back side of the bathroom to open that doorway up to the FR. I also like all the cabinets on that right side wall. It looked like I had more counter space that way. I did like the FR and LR separate so I don't have to listen to the kids all day and night but I'll send them downstairs or outside when it's nice. This building stuff is a lot of work. I feel the kitchen in the back of the house just is too small for us.

All your work is so appreciated you have no idea! I see your postings on a lot of boards. You really enjoy doing this and it shows. Thank you again.

@desert I'm in NY on Long Island. I don't sleep so much so I'm up usually by 5 and check in on my post and you usually have just posted 3 hours earlier. Scary I know this. Haha. I'm just eager to finish these plans. It is a lot harder than I thought. I thought I would go to the architect and he would come up with everything I wanted. Not the case. Thank goodness I found GW! It is beyond useful . And I'm meeting great people like yourself.

i don't like the idea of 2 dishwashers. I don't want to waste floor space on two seating areas that won't be used all the time. I'd rather send the kids downstairs when we have company or outside when it's nice. I'm not sure that I love the FR next to the LR but it's loo like I don't have A choice. I'll make the LR a computer/homework room for now until they get bigger and don't have to be doing homework near me. Then I'll make it a real LR.

thank you again.

Can the addition be changed at all or is that footprint set in stone? Sorry if you already addressed this.

@benje it is pretty much set in stone. We don't want to go for variances. Our architect worked for the building department so that is what he told us.

@mama thank you. I used to do soduko but this forum has been taking over. I am going to print out a few and play around

I likely missed important details, but a gave it a shot. (Gardenweb is my Candy Crush, you could say.)

I think if your back door was on that short wall perpendicular to the backyard it would help a lot with space planning and traffic patterns. I played around with an island that seats 5 kiddos plus a stool for mom:

"I'm in NY on Long Island. I don't sleep so much so I'm up usually by 5 and check in on my post and you usually have just posted 3 hours earlier. "

yep, that makes the timing about right with me being up til 2-3 am here. I've gotta work on getting my days/nights back on track. You'll see this post when you get up - hey, good morning you!

you'd be surprised how 2 tables can come in handy. We were always having to clear the table to eat dinner... or have the island in the kitchen and table in the DR. and thanks!

btw, what's in the basement for the kids?

btw - those young kid bodies will grow a lot bigger in a few yrs when they sprout up! you'll be glad to have space and options for them to go to. island, DR, FR etc.

benjesbride - you and mama g have both posted great LOs! your 3D is awesome - love that window area and island. wonderful options.

@desert Goodmorning, when you told me to post in kitchen I would get help, you were so right! mama, benjesbride, herb and yourself have been wonderful. Now I have too many choices and decisions to make! Benjesbride gave me an island and a table. Do you think that will give me enough seating now? After dinner the kids can go in the LR and adults can go to FM. I will play around with the floor plan later at work and post later for you guys!

@benjesbride I love it because it gives me everything I want. I am just wondering if I got rid of the pantry and made the opening bigger would I not have enough storage space? I hope I'm not asking too many questions I just want to make sure everything will work before I agree to a plan. You have been great! Thanks again!

IMO, that wall between the kitchen and dining room is going to be your best friend. You may even want to put a door on it. With five children and two adults plus guests, that main floor is going to get LOUD. Putting a wall--expecially with freezer/fridge/pantry there will absorb a lot of noise.

If you like to listen to music or podcasts or have a conversation in the kitchen without competing with TV noise or kid noise from another room, you'll appreciate that buffer.

A narrow entry with a door will also better direct traffic around the kitchen to the main hall.

To direct traffic in a way to keep them out of the work zones, wouldn't it be better to flip that wall so the entry is over to the left?

Hi, desertsteph--good to see you! Thank you. :)

benjesbride, great 3D drawings.

qtcandi (Is that a reference to an on-line game? ;), we widened the doorway between the kitchen and DR, and I wish we'd done it when we first bought the house 21 years ago. I love the feeling of one large room for kitchen and dining, but I like the LR separate, as benjesbride suggested. We also had the circular traffic pattern going on--with a fairly recent addition, it's now a figure 8. When my kids were young it was the roller derby track, and with the grandkids, we found plasma cars. But we're pretty casual, so kids zooming through the LR is just part of life. ;)

ETA, good idea, funkycamper. qtcandi, my kitchen work aisle is protected by an island, with no appliances on the traffic side, for the reasons I stated above. Tweaks:

With that doorway from kitchen to dining, I was thinking of avoiding a blind corner cabinet, providing a more direct route from the cooking zone/dishes for serving and an easy route to clear dirty dishes to the clean up area. also, I thought a powder room was opposite the stairs.

@Mama so are you saying I should keep the kitchen and dining room open and close off the LR? I could put pocket glass doors between the DR and LR to close it off but still have it open when the kids are at school and still get that open feeling that I'm looking for. I am playing around with all the LO's. On your layout with the mobile prep cart do you think I could add a island if I got rid of the counter seating and added another 18 cabinet on that right hand wall run? Making that cabinet run a little longer or are the fridge and freezer not going to have enough room to open? Or should I not put an island because it will mess up the triangle? I really like the island though! If that would work then I would be able to keep the kitchen and DR open and close off the LR.

@Benje I still am liking your LO just trying to figure this all out. It is so overwhelming.If I made the pantry smaller it would give me a little larger opening. I like your plan of the opening on the right side closer to the sink. Easier to bring food back and forth.

Thanks again

"I hope I'm not asking too many questions I just want to make sure everything will work before I agree to a plan"

no, that's what you need to do. Some LOs have been worked on for yrs. You probably need to speed it up from taking yrs tho - lol! (or your kids will be grown and gone) but do take time to let them gel a bit. Ask questions. Think out of the box too. If you ask too many questions, your replies will begin to be 1 word - 'THUD''. Then you know gw'ers have fallen over in exhaustion... you're not near that point yet!

Think about how you cook, the steps you go thru when preparing a meal. You might want to pay close attention to that for a week and see if there's a pattern to it. How do you bring groceries into the house? (besides having all the kids help). You might want to consider putting dishes in drawers too - so the kids can reach them easier and put them away easier (no climbing).

It might be a good idea to put doors between DR and LR and between FR and KIT - like pocket doors, sliding barn doors etc if the budget allows it.

" It is so overwhelming. If I made the pantry smaller it would give me a little larger opening"

yes, it's overwhelming. It's also a lot of work and expense - so you do need to spend some time to work it out where it'll be best for your family to make it worth the time, effort and $s - and ease on you when working in it.

Do be sure you'll have enough storage area for your family. For food and misc small appliances, cleaning items etc.

I'm busted--I've been drawing the layouts, but I don't really know the dimensions of your fridge and freezer (I was going to say 'twins', but I think you would have thought of something different ;). I was using 36" width, and maybe 30" depth. You can check the specs to find out the exact measurements, and the depth of the open door.

My preference is to have the kitchen open to the DR, and separated from the LR, but I have a country/cottage/vintage style home, and a casual lifestyle. I don't care for open concept, though. Country kitchens and tables seem to go together, but my kitchen is too small for a dining table (many would say too small for the island, too). The table is about 8' from the fridge, and when the kids were young we ate all our meals there. That was when I had only a small work-table in the kitchen. The island can seat 4-5, and my DD, her husband, and young son, who live with me, seem to prefer the island for meals. I really like my island, which is work-table height, 34", and I make the sacrifice of narrow aisles--if I were building new, I'd make the aisles wider, of course. Neither fridge or range opens completely to the island, they just overlap, so I have plenty of room to step back on one side, if I need to. The DW opens into the long aisle, but because I couldn't move it, it's on the wrong side of the sink.

My concern about including a prep island, even with adequate aisles, was that it would be a barrier between the fridge and cooktop, and if you need to make frequent trips to the fridge for ingredients after you start cooking, walking around will get old fast.Even if you opted for a prep sink on the island, which would make a nice prep area, it's still a barrier. You could put the prep sink on the end by the pantry, but then you'd be prepping in the traffic aisle, and you'd have to shove the prepped items across the counter, and walk around to work at the cooktop.

(Another confession: I don't care for peninsulas in general--if given the choice and equal function, I'd choose the island.)

@mama

@desert

@benje

what do you think of this?

I like the idea of a closed off living room rather than a closed off dining/living, however, isn't your front entry in the living room? I think it's best that traffic enters the house straight back from the front door; straight to the proposed closet. If you direct traffic from the front door around your living room furniture to get through pocket doors and then left to the closet it just seems a bit wonky to me. It just depends how you envision using the spaces.

I'm kind of sight-line police around here and I'd caution you against a sightline from the front door straight back to the kitchen clean up sink and prep area. I don't like that, but you may not care.

I'll always opt for a swinging door and nice picture window over a sliding glass door; I really dislike sliding glass doors. That said, with all those kids in and out the back of the house, I don't think you have enough clearance between the pantry and the island to get to the back yard.

Are you skipping a prep sink? Why? I have two kids and like to be ALONE in the kitchen so I understand thinking from a solo cook perspective, but if you want any of those kiddos helping in the kitchen, I'd think a prep sink in the island would be used a ton.

You'd appreciate having a hutch on the backside of the powder room to help with muffling bathroom sounds. Trust me on this.

If you don't have a prep sink in the island, you should put the dishwasher on the other side of the clean up sink to keep it out of the prep zone.

I was working on one, too, but trying to keep the seating on the peninsula, with a prep island. Here's a (messy, sorry) plan using benjesbride's suggestion to put a
single door in the bump-put corner. I put the fridge/freezer on the top
wall, with a prep sink in the island. It makes a nice work area, but
it's on the opposite end from the DR--nice for the cook, but a bit of a
trek if someone needs milk or salad dressing. I added shallow pantry
storage on the left wall, and made the corner across from the peninsula a
MW/snack center. You could have a small under-counter fridge there, for
milk and drinks (and salad dressing). The UC fridge and snack area would also be convenient to the family room.

I couldn't find wall space for the oven, so it's on the island--you could opt for a range instead. I also moved the peninsula down to use all of the kitchen space.

ETA, I forgot to remove the deeper counter stretch on the right side--without it you have 6" more floor space.

I'll post your plan again, so we don't need to scroll (so many plans my head is spinning ;).

I thought the entry was to the left of the LR, into a hall?

I agree with benjesbride about the DW (calm down, funkycamper ;), and I'd switch the fridge and freezer--you'll need filler for the one in the corner, so that the door will open fully. It will be easier to use the island for landing space for the fridge, too, if they're switched.

The island is wider than it needs to be--you need 25" for cabinets and overhang, and 15" for seating overhang--40" will be sufficient. The wide island also interferes with traffic from the slider. You could have the shallow pantry storage that I drew, giving more room for the traffic aisle.

If you keep the double doors, you have room for French doors, without smacking the cabs on either side, but I'd make the right one stationary, to funnel traffic to the left.

Oops, sorry, I meant to address the built-ins in the DR. When I drew the windows in the bay, I was imagining tall windows, but I love the idea of bungalow-style built-ins! I think you could have them, more like bookcases, though, at 12" deep, and then make the china cabinet the same depth, maybe 14". That way you have a barrier between the PR and DR, but you get all the storage. I think the dining room is going to be beautiful. I like the idea of the pocket doors, too.

Is this too shabby?

More beachy:

The LR should be open to the R when coming in front door (unless it's been changed), then the closet and then the PR. on the L is the laundry and then the stairways. The front hall should go straight back to the FR.

I like the idea of being able to close off the LR from the DR if needed too. I'm not so sure about patio doors on the back tho. I didn't like those so much when my kids were young. Of course, that's what we had to enter into the front of the house - and the back. 2 sets of sliding doors. In the Midwest in winter it allowed a terrible blast of freezing cold to come in every time someone went in or out. The chill could be felt all thru either room (LR in the front and kit in the back).

you also don't want the island to be a barrier from the fridge - but I think that's been changed too.

All in all I think it's progressing nicely. You've seen lots of options and will have to decide between some of them. Do you want a peninsula and an island? Just the island and the cabs to dead end on the R run? More windows / glass on the back wall or the fridge/frzr? I think something like Carrie's door would look great on that kitchen wall. transom and all! I also liked the door in the left corner - keeping the in/outs along that wall. Could still have lots of windows on the back wall.

Think about dish storage and dw placement in relationship to the table too.

How wide will your fridge and frzr be? (I freak at some of these humongous appl - my fridge is 28"W, but I don't have kids here to feed anymore). What about your sink? single or double? Do put in a prep sink - those kids will need space to help you. more than 1 of them could be a future chef of NY!

@benje that door in LR will not be there anymore we are moving the front door to the left of the LR and it opens into a hallway. You won't be able to see straight to the back of the house then. I don't like that either. I am doing a prep sink in the island I agree that it will be used a ton as well.

@mama I love everything you are doing! The fridge/freezer is 79" with the trim kit so will it still be ok at the top wall? I don't love the idea of a range bc if their are 2 of us cooking usually 1 of us is using the stove and it becomes a PIA to keep moving. I really like the snack/coffee station with the uv fridge. I also like the shallow pantry on your plans I don't see any hanging cabinets I don't see any room for them but that is ok to me I'm only 5 ft and can't reach them now I could only imagine how much shorter I will be in the years to come. Ohhh and I love the first hutch. Your starting to know me ;)

The entrance is to the left of the LR. You are correct.

@desert the front door opens to a hallway and to the R is the DR to the L is the mud room and stairs with the hallway to the FR. If that makes sense?

I like the idea if pocket doors going from the DR to LR so it gives us some quiet if the kids are watching TV. I do like sliding doors because it brings a lot of light into the house but I'm fine with the single door in the kitchen I will just add a slider in the FR.

What is a carries door? I don't need a peninsula and seating at the island. Do you think I could put a pass throug on that peninsula with overhead glass cabinets it would separate the kitchen from the DR. Looking at too many pictures. I like a double sink. Also one in the island. The fridge/freezer is 79" with the trim kit. I need it bc we cook at least 4 times a week and the kids eat like animals and it is only going to get worse when they become teenagers.

I am so impressed with the great talent and time everyone puts into helping other people. What an exceptional talent you all have. I wish I could visualize like you all. In the past week I have learnt so much but I will never be a pro. Keep up the great work everyone.

"@desert the front door opens to a hallway and to the R is the DR to the L is the mud room and stairs with the hallway to the FR. If that makes sense?"

are you closing off the opening to the LR from front hall?

"the kids eat like animals and it is only going to get worse when they become teenagers"

that's it exactly! When our oldest hit the teenage yrs, I couldn't keep enough bread in the house for a week ... we bought a freezer. I started making jelly/jam in quart jars... and remember they will do a humongous jump in size... there'll be BIG kids running around in your house!

"What is a carries door?"

I'll look for a link to it...

here's the LINK to it. it was on p13! there are a few examples at the top of the thread. A bit more than half way down is Carrie's door at the back of her kitchen.