Hi Bill, It is so nice to hear from you today. I hope y'all got some rain this week. We did! I agree with you that over-loving one's tomato plants is counter-productive because it gives you lots of watery, underflavored tomatoes. A term commonly used to refer to overwatering and overfeeding is "loving your plants to death". I am really careful about not overwatering (which, considering our droughts here, is not that hard as long as I don't turn on the soaker hoses too often) and not overfeeding. I've also noticed that plants that are overfed and overwatered have incredible pest problems and more disease issues as well. Bill, my absolute worst tomato year ever in my whole life was here in southern OK in 2004. I remember that I got the plants into mostly raised beds (two rows were at grade level in only slightly amended soil) with well-amended soil and I got them planted pretty early. By the end of May I had nice, tall sturdy plants covered with ripening fruit. In June, 12" of rain fell. Twelve inches. That was the end of what had seemed to be a promising tomato year. All the tomatoes had poor flavor and texture and most were spitters. I hope we never have 12" of rain in one month again during tomato growing season. The rain finally stopped falling sometime in July, but I didn't have tomatoes with good flavor until late August or early September. The next two years were drought years also plagued by wildfire, and in 2005 and 2006 we had really, really good-flavored tomatoes and a pretty decent harvest considering the drought and heat. For us, as for most of OK, 2007's spring and early summer was excessively wet and the tomatoes were late and poorly-flavored. Once again the rain stopped in July, and we got decently flavored tomatoes a month or so later. Last year's drought gave us tomatoes with great flavor, even after I completely stopped watering the garden when the water bills became unbearably high. So, I don't really want to "hope for drought", but it does give us our best-flavored tomatoes (and our hottest peppers too). Even though we had over an inch of rain this week here (1.7" to be exact), that only brings 2009's rainfall up to about 50% of normal, and the drought is forecast to persist or improve only slightly, so I am expecting a good tomato year here. This year I am going to grow about 30 plants in containers so I can control the moisure a little more for them than I can for in-the-ground plantings. I can't wait to see how you like SunGold. The only people I've ever known who didn't like SunGold were, perhaps, picking them too early or maybe overwatering them. You have to let them get a deep golden-orange. Sadly, the SunGolds split pretty easily and don't hold for a long time after being harvested which is why you don't see them for sale often in grocery stores or farmer's markets. If you like SunGold, though, and want to grow it to sell, there is a very similar improved variety called SunSugar that doesn't crack and holds for a longer period of time. The flavor of SunSugar (at least to my tastebuds) is identical to the flavor of SunGold. I get the best tomatoes when I give them only organic tomato food that is low in the necessary macronutrients. I like Espoma Tomato Tone which is a 4-7-10. (For anyone newer to gardening, that's 4% nitogen, 7% phosphate, and 10% potash.) What I really like about it is that it contains all the micronutrients tomatoes need: calcium, magnesium, sulfur, boron, chlorine, cobalt, copper, iron, manganese, molybdenum, sodium, and zinc. I give each plant a handful of Tomato Tone at planting time and then I don't necessarily feed them again unless they are showing signs of nutritional deficiency. I don't water any more often than I have to in order to get the plants to a decent size by the time flowering begins, and I water as little as possible once they are setting fruit, especially as fruit begins to ripen. I like to describe the effect of stress on tomato plants to new gardeners this way: The purpose of a tomato plant is to produce seeds to perpetuate itself. If the plant is living a cushy life and is not in danger of dying, it doesn't get in a big hurry to make seeds and, if it is an indeterminate tomato, it just keeps getting bigger and bigger. Why shouldn't it? The plant, after all, is living the good life and has reason to think that life will end any time soon. On the other hand, if a tomato plant is a little dry, a little hot, and a little thirsty and hungry, it tends to produce more seed, and earlier, because it is hurrying up to make seed to replace itself in case it dies. So, stress (up to a point) is good since it gives us more seeds (inside our fruit). For most of us here in Oklahoma, it isn't too hard to see to it that our plants get the stress they need--Mother Nature sort of takes care of that for us! LOL Dawn

2009 HEIRLOOM TOMATO LIST Abe Hall OH/KY Ace 55 Amish Oxheart Amish Paste Amulet Arkansas Travler Aunt RubyÂs German Green Australian Heart, ÂJoe Thieneman KY Barnes Mountain Pink KY Barnes Mountain Yellow KY Bear Claw Beefsteak Black Cherry Black From Tula Black Krim Black Master Black Mountain Pink KY Black Pear Black Plum Black Prince Black Truffle Black Yum Yum Brandy Sudduths Pink Buckeye Yellow KY Bulgarian Triumph Red Butler Skinner KY CalfÂs Heart KY Caspian Pink Champagne Cherry Cherokee Purple Chris Ukranian Clustermato Cows Tit Creole Depinto Depp's PinkFire Fly KY Dr. Walter Dr. WycheÂs Yellow Dwarf Champion Early Girl FrankÂs Large Red KY Fresh Salsa George OÂBrian German Johnson Giant Belgium Giant Italian Paste Giant Sicillian Paste Gift from Woodland Grandfather Ashlock KY Grandma VineyÂs KY Granny CantrellÂs German PL KY Green Grape Green Zebra HaleyÂs Purple Comet Hasting Mildglobe Hazelfield Farm Red KY Hege German Pink Hog Heart KY Indiana Red J.D.ÂS Texas Special KellogÂs Breakfast Kentucky Striped KY Khaborosky King Umberto Kosovo KY Heirloom KY Ky. Beefsteak Ky. Light Yellow KY Ky. Pink Stamper KY Ky. Plate KY Ky. Wonder KY Large Red Cherry Lenny & GracieÂs Red KY Lenny & GracieÂs Yellow KY Lichi Cherry Lime Green Salad Lincoln Adams KY LinnieÂs Oxheart KY Livingdon Globe Lumpy Red KY Mama Leona Marglobe MariannaÂs Peace Matina MaxÂs Large Green KY Mikado Ecarlote Monk KY Moraviqua Del mercato New Jersey Championship New Yorker Old Kentucky KY Opalaka Paste OpalÂs Homestead KY Orange Strawberry Ozark Pink Pale Perfect Purple Palestinian Pan American Pasture Cherry Peacevine Red Cherry Persimmon Pike County KY PikÂs Yugo Pink Climber Pink Ice Cherry Pink Ruffle Plum Lemon Polish C Pink Potato Leaf Cherokee Purple Pritchards Scarlet Red Topper Purple Dog Creek KY Red Calabash Red Grape Red Kimberly Red Lightening Red Robin Red Russian Riesentraube (Red) Riesentraube (Yellow) Romeo Roma Rose Beauty KY Royal Hillbilly Rutgers San Marzano Santorini Salad Sicilian Saucer St. Pierre Striped Roman Sungold Cherry Sweet Baby Girl Sweet Meat T.C. Jones Yellow KY TappyÂs Finest Pink Thessalonia Tigerella Tondina Maremmano TonyÂs Italian Paste Uncle Mark Bagby KY Kentucky Heirloom Viva KY Walzer KY Wes Williams Striped KY Winsall Winter Grape Yellow Pear Cherry Yoders German Yellow KY/TN

First, I tried to answer the question about the definition of OP using the same genetic terms that pennyrile used. So that's an attempt to defione an OP based on genetic issues alone. What Trudi posted is a definition based more on a functional basis. Here's what Trudi quoted from her source: (In addition to their long history of use, the heirloom vegetables that are routinely grown from seed are open-pollinated, meaning that they set seed "naturally," often aided by wind, rain, or pollinating insects, and can thus be renewed by sowing the seeds harvested from each generation of plants. Known also as standard or non-hybrid, open-pollinated varieties tend to be stable and true-breeding. They differ from F1 hybrids, which in usual practice result from deliberate crossing of two distinct, highly inbred parent lines. (The term "F1" to describe the hybrid offspring indicates the "first filial" generation, with respect to the parent lines.)) Trudi, I know that definition well and used to use it when asked, but a couple of things about it started bothering me. (are open-pollinated, meaning that they set seed "naturally," often aided by wind, rain, or pollinating insects, and can thus be renewed by sowing the seeds harvested from each generation of plants. Known also as standard or non-hybrid, open-pollinated varieties tend to be stable and true-breeding.) Possible Problem #1; if cross pollinated by pollinating insects a variety is no longer genetically stable, as in true brreding. Possible Problem #2; nothing was said about spontaneous mutations which can also alter varieties. Possible Problem #3. What about all the varieties that were bred by individuals and done so deliberately? Would then one still consider all of TOm Wagner's varieties such as Green Zebra, Green Grape, Elberta Girl and on and on, as OP's b'c they didn't come about via natural means? Same comment for all of the ones bred by joe Bratka such as Snow White, Super Snow White, Ghost, Rabbit, Marizol Purple, aka Marizol Bratka, and all the Sara thises and that's that he bred. Since they were bred are they to be considered OP? s And what about all the ones bred by Joe's father, such as Box Car Willie, Mule Team, Red Barn, Great Divide and Pasture. Are they OP's using the "natural" definition? And there are more examples. ( They differ from F1 hybrids, which in usual practice result from deliberate crossing of two distinct, highly inbred parent lines. (The term "F1" to describe the hybrid offspring indicates the "first filial" generation, with respect to the parent lines.)) The purpose here is to produce F1 seed for sale whereas the deliberate crosses made by Tom Wagner, Joe Bratka, his father, Tad Smith and others is not to produce F1 seed, rather, to dehybridize the F1's that they create to develop OP's from selections at the F2, F3, level, for instance. I guess what I'm saying is that I've know that functional definition of OP for a long time and that goes back to the late 80's. But in more recent years we do have lots of folks making their own crosses, so it seems maybe a bit problematic now to say that an OP can only arise by natural means, forgetting the comment about X pollination by insects. Just something to think about. Carolyn

"Why don't you folks give this hybrid a try when seed become available and see how it stacks up against the best heirlooms you grow?" DING-DING-DING-DING-DING-DING-DING-DING!!!!!! We have a winner! Really folks. Don't knock it until you try it. First, we are talking about taste tests. Tastes are an opinion only. Everyone has their own opinion. For example, I can fart on an elevator and not be bothered. The other passengers on the car probably won't agree. Of course, these are subjective and are based on the experiences of the testers. These testers may have been NY City residents who have never tasted a heirloom or anything other than what they purchased at the grocery store. They may have based their preferences on what they THINK tomatoes are supposed to taste like. Also, tastes change over time. Some things require an acquired taste. How many people do you know that enjoy the taste of beer or scotch or any other alcoholic beverage? How many people do you know liked whatever alcoholic beverage the very first time they tasted it? I know I didn't, but after years of being of being a college student, I learned to appreciate the taste of a good beer. I would really enjoy a good, dark, Shiner beer today if I still drank, but thought it tasted like flat dirt the first time I had one. The same goes for tomatoes. You guys may have not seen anything special about your favorite heirloom the first time you tasted it, but now it may be the best thing since (and on) sliced bread. Finally, we are talking about taste tests for tomatoes that were grown in a particular area under particular conditions. In your area, with your own style of care, you may get completely different results than what these growers were able to achieve. In other words, YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary).