University taste test rates hybrids over heirlooms!

15 years ago

In 2007 University of North Caroline conducted taste tests on three heirlooms (including Cherokee) and three "heirloom-like" hybrids (unknown to me). The three hybrids outrated the heirlooms. Apparently, the hybrids had other winning characteristics, such as less proneness to cracking.

This is all news to me. I would like to know more.

Can one get these new hybrids? Has anyone tried them?

See: http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/programs/ncorganic/research/tomatoes_organics.html

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Comments (28)

containerted
15 years ago
So, what was the criteria for the test? How much weight was actually placed on taste? And who did the tasting? Was the taster certified to make a judgement for everybody else on the planet? Where did the tomatoes come from? Northern latitudes, hot Southern latitudes, Rocky Mountain high altitude, Louisiana swamp land, California desert, Canadian short season??????

Where were the tomatoes grown? In what soil? How much water? How much fertilizer? Under what temperatures from seed to fruit? And there's a host of other variables that can affect the taste of tomatoes. Anytime somebody wants to sell a book or just say "Hey, look at me", they put out a report on something real gardeners know is nothing but "HOGWASH".

So, with that University report and a couple of bucks, you can get a cup of coffee.

If you want to know how something tastes, ask your nose and tongue. It's kinda like art. I just know what I like and it ain't the same as everybody else.

Cheers

Ted
carolyn137
15 years ago
I can't get your link to open so could you please name the hybrids and OP's that were tested?

Being NCSU I'm assuming they're some of the new hybrids bred by Dr. Randy Gardner.

Frankly I don't see it as much of a tasting/performance rating with three hybrids and three OP's. (smile)

Carolyn
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And I congratulate you on your discovery of heirlooms and the great taste of them. I feel honored if something that I posted may have help lead you to your trial of some of the heirlooms. Taste is very subjective and obviously not everyone likes the same thing, but you have already found one that you like very much. I am sure that there will be others, perhaps some that you like even better, and most likely some that you will not want to waste time and space on again. The trial and anticipation is a good part of the fun. Now, having said all of that, you must not forget those that brung you to the dance, your favorite hybrids. There are some that will always be among my favorites in my garden, for taste as well as productivity and dependability. Best regards Steph. Bill P.
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nordfyr315
15 years ago
The hybrids would have to do my law school homework for me before I would purchase any products from Monsanto. Pardon my prickliness, I know a very nice gentleman that works for the NSCU Crop Science Dept, but at the same time, I would not be at all surprised if certain agribusinesses noticed the seed saving/OP trend and decided to launch a stealth PR campaign to put the home gardner back in their pockets. Not saying this is you, or that the hybrids are Monsanto products; I am just a little paranoid.
Bob_B
Original Author
15 years ago
If you Google "Opportunities with tomatoes and organics" the first items that come up will take you to the site. Yes, Randy Gardner is involved.
RB
digdirt2
15 years ago
Here you go - yes it is some of Randy Gardner's work and the hybrid varieties are not available. NC # labels only against German Johnson et al.

Heavily "fruit appearance" oriented and note the bit on field prep and fertilizer use. ;)

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: study in question
HoosierCheroKee
15 years ago
Let's not get nutso here.

First off, Dr. Gardner is a well-respected tomato breeder who has developed many great hybrids. And shipping quality is important in the tomato industry ... as is disease resistance. And no, I don't see any "hobby" tomato varieties coming out of the NCSU program. But no reason to get fanatical about it ... because I don't think Dr. Gardner is a Monsanto pawn. Just a great tomato breeder, IMO.

Secondly, Mr. Stripey (one of the tomatoes thrown up against the 3 numbered NCSU hybrids) sucks big time. And I've never grown German Johnson (another of the 3 "heirloom" guinea pigs) but it's popular in North Carolina and I think Dr. Gardner has used it before for comparison or testing before ... so no surprise there. But for sure those 3 hybrids are gonna have to wow the livin' hell outta my taste buds to even hold a candle to Cherokee Purple. And if Gardner really wanted to give those hybrids some competition in both taste, production, size consistency, disease resistance, heat resistance, taste, and all else ... he shoulda ran Indian Stripe up against those NCSU hybrids!

Now lastly ... Dr. Gardner told a tomato buddy of mine who studied under Garner at NCSU that Sophya was a hybrid with "heirloom" qualities to try out. And I did on that advice. And guess what? Gardner was right. That is one fine hybrid tomato with a lot of "heirloom" qualities plus a great disease resistance package, great production, great looking fruit with good holding qualities, AND ... wait for it ... great flavor to boot!

Another Gardner/NCSU modern hybrid product, that like Sophya is tomato spot wilt virus resistant, that I tried this summer is Mountain Glory (TSWV-res. version of Mountain Spring) and it tasted better and had better color than Mountain Spring (IMO) and produced well (50 tomatoes per determinate vine) in two gardens in Texas to whom I sent seeds. And no, Mountain Glory was not marketted by Monsanto ... rather Rogers/Sygenta ... so no threat to your karma there, folks :::smile:::

So the dude knows what he's doing and knows what the heck he's talkin' 'bout. Maybe some folks should lighten up and enjoy this hobby in a more full way.

Bill
spiced_ham
15 years ago
Why do people just assume that because it is a hybrid it has to be inferior? What about these hybrids... Sun Gold, Ramapo, Momotaro, Purple Haze, original Rutgers, and several unnamed F1s like NAR x Brandywine some hobbiests around here are trying to stabilize into OPs? Many many heirlooms are nothing to write home about [if yellow pear was a round red cherry it would be universally disliked], and even great ones would be horrible if gassed and chilled like grocery store toms. If NCSU can do something to get decent tasting tomatoes into my grocerystore in January more power to them.
lee_71
15 years ago
The "test" was done by North Carolina State University. UNC is a liberal arts school that wouldn't know a tomato from a hornworm!

The taste testing of 3 hybrids vs 3 heirlooms is not at all conclusive. Plus, with all the false Cherokee Purple's floating around out there, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if
they didn't have the real deal.

I thought about inviting those folks at the Fletcher Research Station to come to Tomatopalooza[tm] to try >100 heirlooms, but didn't have time. Perhaps next year.....

So, to answer your question, the report is rather limited in
scope and I wouldn't accept any of their conclusions other than perhaps they are finally begining to consider flavor as a beneficial quality in developing hybrid tomatoes.
The mountain series Dr. Gardner developed certainly contains
all of the qualities that he intended to breed into them; but
taste isn't one of them!

Lee
carolyn137
15 years ago
The "test" was done by North Carolina State University. UNC is a liberal arts school that wouldn't know a tomato from a hornworm!

****

Lee, with all due respect Randy Gardner WAS at the experimental station in western NC and the folks there do know a lot about both hybrids as well as OP heirlooms.

And I say WAS there b'c he retired on June 30th of this year but was obligated to stay on to break in his replacement. He then planned to move back to the old family farm in VA and continue with his own breeding efforts.

We talked specific heirlooms this past June and I was supposed to keep touch with him in terms of sending him some varieties he might want.

My brother is located about 18 miles north of Asheville and the experimental station is about 15 miles south of Asheville. My dear brother wanted me to ask Randy to drive up and diagnose his tomato disease problems. ( smile)

I know about his interest in heirlooms from many years ago when I contacted him to ask some questions about FFF in the area and even back then he was starting to work with breeding some taste into some hybrids. But at that time he said the selections were too soft to have much shelf life.

I think it's important to have not only the tomato molecular folks, of which there are many now, as well as the hands on hybridizers such as Randy, and he's got a great eye for making selections.

As well as a long and distinguished career/

Carolyn
eltex
15 years ago
The "test" was done by North Carolina State University. UNC is a liberal arts school that wouldn't know a tomato from a hornworm!

*********************8

Lee, I am confused with this comment. You talk about NCSU, but then bash UNC. They are different schools, and I don't think they are related.

I do think the test is very inconclusive, based on the varieites tried. However, I also think that you can make some exceptional hybrid's by using good breeding stock. Sometimes, the seeds from those hybrids won't breed very true, and othertimes lots of them will. I would never knock a hybrid just for being a hybrid, but I would argue that this experiment might have had different results with some different heirloom selections. It might be that they picked the heirlooms based on what they expected the hybrids to be, to try and match the appearance. Just a thought....
carolyn137
15 years ago
It might be that they picked the heirlooms based on what they expected the hybrids to be, to try and match the appearance. Just a thought....

****

And a good thought at that b'c I know he's been using MR Stripey in his breeding program.

It wouldn't be that the hybrid construct would look like Mr. Stripey, rather, there are other traits that he found desirable.

Spiced ham wrote:
Why do people just assume that because it is a hybrid it has to be inferior?

That's a pretty general statement and I don't doubt that some feel that SOME hybrids are inferior, primarily in the taste attributes, but almost all of my tomato growing friends grow both hybrids and OP's/

And I sure could list some other hybrids that I personally like, but won't b'c there's no reason to as I see it.

I also think it's great that so many folks are now doing directed crosses, such as the NAR X Brandywine one, and there are others as well.

I don't condemn any variety off hand just b'c it's a hybrid, or an OP, as far as that goes.

Carolyn
containerted
15 years ago
You know, I raise tomatoes because I was born with a constant "lycopene low lite". I just love the taste of tomatoes. This year, I raised both Hybrids and Open-Pollinated types. I loved the taste of all of the OP's (the Cherokee Purples were like ambrosia), but the Hybrids came as a mixed group. Better Boy is a great taste. SuperSteak did okay. Supertasty was mealy and bland. Sunmaster was almost a spitter. Heatwave even turned off the wife who is much less tolerant than I. And Talladega was a very pleasant surprise. So, I don't care about all of these "surveys" and "tests". I care about what tastes good.

This year, as in years past, I gave away a lot of tomatoes. But I never give away the "spitters". So, if you want me to sign up to your "TEST", come to my world and walk a mile in my shoes. Otherwise, go ahead and have your test and make your claims and I'll take them all with a grain of salt and still do "my thing".

I didn't mean to get off on a rant, but I'm tired of these tests and people making claims that only serve to enhance their own image. I call it "feathers". If you look at the "birds of paradise", you'll see critters that dress up and shake their feathers to be the best looking thing in town. Too many times, people are like that. Pretty colored feathers with only ugliness, hidden agendas, and no real substance underneath.

Hmmmmmmm....... I guess I'm just gettin' too cynical. I'm tired of tests that make outrageous claims that suck away our riches and give nothing in return. I guess I don't want opinions so much as I want true facts. But that's something reserved for Utopia, now isn't it????

I hope Randy will continue to develop new "tastes". I wish him well in his retirement and offer this advice. Retirement is good and "relax", this is the time for those younger folks to show THEIR stuff.

Good Lord, I just got serious for a minute.

Okay, who knows a good joke about tests????
lee_71
15 years ago
Apparently I need to clarify....

UNC = Univeristy of North Carolina = Liberal Arts, Public school of Michael Jordon/Dean Smith fame

NCSU = North Carolina State University = Agriculture/Technical , Public school of Jim Valvano fame

Dr. Gardner worked/works for NCSU at the research lab in Fletcher, NC. It is in no way related/funded by the Univeristy of North Carolina.
The original post pointed out the study was from UNC, which is wasn't, thus I was clarifying.

I went to NCSU and UNC is our rival, so the "bash" was intentional! Heck, they seem to like calling us Moo U....

Lee
eltex
15 years ago
I get it now Lee. I bleed UVA orange through and through, even though I have moved to Texas now. I think everyone in the ACC hates UNC, though I was always pretty indifferent to NC State. Go ahead and keep bashing the 'heels, they deserve it!
tomatobreeder
15 years ago
I am Randy Gardner, and I enjoyed reading the posts. The heirloom type hybrid that beat the op heirlooms in taste tests in 2006, 2007, and 2008 has been named 'Mountain Magic'. This hybrid results from the cross of a large fruited early blight/late blight resistant op tomato line x a long shelf life op grape tomato line with high sugar and early blight resistance. 'Mountain Magic' is indeterminate and produces deep round fruit that are 1.5-2oz. in size. The plants are resistant to early blight and late blight and have shown good tolerance to other foliar tomato diseases. This hybrid was released to Bejo Seeds. Commercial seed, both conventional and organic, should be available for sale in 2010 through Seedway and several other seed distributors in the U.S. Why don't you folks give this hybrid a try when seed become available and see how it stacks up against the best heirlooms you grow? I am working on other hybrids that incorporate the flavor, desirable texture, colors, and other traits of the best heirloom tomatoes along with disease resistance and improved fruit quality. We will be testing these tomatoes over the next few years, so stay posted for what is coming down the pike. Let me know if you have any questions about how we conducted our taste tests.
carolyn137
15 years ago
Delighted to see you posting here Randy and thanks for the above clarification.

And I'm wondering if you ever got the e-mail I sent you a couple of months ago about the heirloom varieties we talked about last time we talked.

I was told by David Francis that your e-mail address was still the same, so that's why I used it.

If you have the time/interest and would still like to receive some germplasm it's best to reach me at cmale@aol.com

I'll offer to exchange germplasm for your driving up to Mars Hill some fine day and setting my brother straight on what he says kills all his tomato plants b'c I've given up trying to help him from a distance. LOL

Carolyn ( Male)
trudi_d
15 years ago
Welcome to GardenWeb Dr. Gardner, I hope you'll join the conversations here or at many of the other forums.

Kindly,

Trudi Davidoff
WinterSown.Org
USDA/NAL/AgNIC
fusion_power
15 years ago
Randy, Nice to see you post here. I've read up on several of your hybrids that are under development. I think you have a very good possibility of significantly improving tomato flavor in your lines. I strongly disagree with the varieties you are comparing with. The only really good tomato you used was Cherokee Purple and it is not quite as sweet as some people would prefer. German Johnson is not really a tomato and neither is mr stripey. They just look the part until you taste of them!

DarJones
containerted
15 years ago
Randy, I'm also glad to see you here. I have always wanted to let you know how much I enjoy the taste of some of the "mountain" varieties. Mountain Fresh is a favorite.

I spent the first 22 years of my adult working life testing things and the last 25 years testing, monitoring, and qualifying/approving the testing of things. Taste testing is completely subjective. So, I remain in the mode of "I'll decide that one for me".

That said, I again wish you well in your retirement. Enjoy the moments. If Mountain Magic is half as good as Mountain Fresh, I'll be looking forward to your newest "baby" with saliva flowing.

Ted
atascosa_tx
15 years ago
I'm not a horticulture..nor am I even an expert on hybrids or heirlooms..
But what I do know is I trust my taste buds...and I know what tastes good and what does not. I love the flavor of BHN 589...a hybrid..and I dislike the flavor of some other tomatoes..heirlooms included..
but guess what...that's my opinion. I don't need a panel of experts to sit around and give hybrids an A+ for taste and heirlooms an a- or what ever the score may read..that's great for those that wish to grow them. It is interesting to read though.
I'll quote conatinerd "HOGWASH"....amen
corrie22
15 years ago
I have yet to figure out the big deal with heirlooms in the first place.

All heirlooms are hybrids.
All heirlooms are are hybrids that reproduce more or less true from seed.

And no different.

Both are the same and both can be good, great, or crappy.

Corrie
fusion_power
15 years ago
Corrie,

I respectfully disagree.

A hybrid can be crudely defined as a plant that results from crossing two parents each having significant genetic differences. While the genetic differences between the parents may be small in terms of the total genome, the effect of that difference in the offspring can be major. Maximum hybrid effects occur in the first cross with diminished effects in subsequent generations.

Tomatoes are natural self pollinators that typically produce 5% or less naturally crossed seed. This means you can save seed from a hybrid and each subsequent generation will become less diverse on an individual plant basis though the entire population of seed retains the complete inherited genome of both parents.

The bulk of hybrid tomatoes were selected for 'commercial' traits. These traits include firmness, thick skin, specific form, etc. There has been relatively little selection for flavor with notable exceptions such as Ramapo.

Heirloom varieties have been kept over the years because they met specific needs including flavor. I will be the first to say that heirlooms can be VERY unproductive by comparison with hybrids. Heirlooms tend to have significantly better flavor than hybrids.

Given my choice of tomatoes to grow, I will grow heirlooms that I have carefully chosen to meet my flavor and production preferences.

DarJones
justaguy2
15 years ago
Heirloom varieties have been kept over the years because they met specific needs including flavor.

Then how do you explain Mr. Stripey? ;)
fusion_power
15 years ago
Then how do you explain Mr. Stripey? ;)

It meets a specific need for novelty, not flavor. Note that Mr. Stripey can be a very sweet tomato and for that reason is grown by people who like sweet fruit. Same thing for German Johnson. It meets a need for a very productive tomato.

:D

DarJones
mulio
15 years ago
They make pretty pictures in coffee table books

Here is a link that might be useful: like I said here
archerb
15 years ago
"Why don't you folks give this hybrid a try when seed become available and see how it stacks up against the best heirlooms you grow?"

DING-DING-DING-DING-DING-DING-DING-DING!!!!!!

We have a winner!

Really folks. Don't knock it until you try it.

First, we are talking about taste tests. Tastes are an opinion only. Everyone has their own opinion. For example, I can fart on an elevator and not be bothered. The other passengers on the car probably won't agree.

Of course, these are subjective and are based on the experiences of the testers. These testers may have been NY City residents who have never tasted a heirloom or anything other than what they purchased at the grocery store. They may have based their preferences on what they THINK tomatoes are supposed to taste like. Also, tastes change over time. Some things require an acquired taste. How many people do you know that enjoy the taste of beer or scotch or any other alcoholic beverage? How many people do you know liked whatever alcoholic beverage the very first time they tasted it? I know I didn't, but after years of being of being a college student, I learned to appreciate the taste of a good beer. I would really enjoy a good, dark, Shiner beer today if I still drank, but thought it tasted like flat dirt the first time I had one. The same goes for tomatoes. You guys may have not seen anything special about your favorite heirloom the first time you tasted it, but now it may be the best thing since (and on) sliced bread.

Finally, we are talking about taste tests for tomatoes that were grown in a particular area under particular conditions. In your area, with your own style of care, you may get completely different results than what these growers were able to achieve. In other words, YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary).
trudi_d
15 years ago
Arch, I'm not getting on an elevator with you. EVER.

Also, you're kinda clueless about NYC. The people are remarkably savvy about their food, they're also remakably savvy about heaps and plenty of other things.

Here is a link that might be useful: Farmer's Markets in NYC
archerb
15 years ago
Re: Trudy,

Arch, I'm not getting on an elevator with you. EVER.

Probably a good idea :-)

Also, you're kinda clueless about NYC. The people are remarkably savvy about their food, they're also remakably savvy about heaps and plenty of other things.

True, as I've only been to NYC a few times. However, the point still remains that everyone who has not grown their own are beholden to what their produce department manager or farmers market thinks that people will like and will sell. For example, I've read that Costoluto Genovese made some people want to vomit and others really enjoyed it. When someone at a farmers market gags after tasting a tomato, you don't expect to see it there again, meaning that you will never get to taste it unless you grow it yourself or know someone who does. (and yes, I'm growing it this year because I want to try it). If I want to vomit after the first time I try it, I won't let it stop me from trying it again. Like a fine scotch, it is probably an acquired taste and someone who has grown to enjoy such a strong tasting tomato will certainly judge tomato tastes differently than someone who has only eaten what others produce for the sole purpose of selling. To look at it another way, there are some great barbecue and burger joints around my town, but the best kept secret is that very best barbecue and burger is made in my own back yard.

Of course, your opinion my differ, but that's the whole point of the discussion, isn't it?

Note: I meant no offense to New Yorkers. They've got enough issues and don't need some know-it-all southern wannabe pointing them out. :-)

Here is a link that might be useful: Costoluto is a pool boy?

University taste test rates hybrids over heirlooms!

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