I suppose it's too wet for bur oak? That would be the number one species for an oak savanna in wisconsin, right?

I like large projects like this, I plan on doing something similar my self. Probably choose two or three different tree species that work well together and fill up a larger area. Eventually complete it with planting some understory shrubs.

The site is quite wet, but Schuettes is well adapted for that. My conundrum with that type is finding something that's not from Virginia or someplace like that. That's where OIKOS says there genetics are from. Not a go for me.

And yes, bur oak is the premiere oak savanna species for areas to our south in this state. Swamp white also shows up in such situations. The Schuettes conveniently has both species as parents. I'm seeing something too called Sargent's oak, evidently, a cross between white oak and bur oak. That one is more an upland species, and this site could accommodate a few of those. Wouldn't mind getting some of that potentially great white oak look mixed into this project as well. It's all about sourcing, not just finding vendors who offer these items, but those who are attuned to the concept of local genetics. I'm not fanatical about that-anywhere from Michigan to Minnesota would work for me, but not Virginia, etc. That, in my opinion, would be asking for trouble. thanks.

+om

IME it's often hard to determine the original seed source of larger caliper plants like you mention. Not impossible, but they've often changed hands a couple times by that point.

Since it's not someone's backyard, why not use small seedlings? Your state nursery might have xschuettei, or you could collect your own seed next fall (probably too late now to get any good ones).

The VA stuff might do better than you think, FYI. It could be from higher elevations in VA and the climate not as different as you'd imagine.

State nursery would not work in this case, this not being a rural, forestry planting. So that's a no-go. As to size of transplants, yes, that is still in consideration. Anything is possible there, including seedlings. I've learned however, that in some of these wild and woolly places, a slightly larger plant can offer major benefits, not the least of which is finding them a year or three hence. We burn these prairie areas, and while I hold ultimate control on such factors, I need to plan around more than just my direct involvement. But mainly, as this search is in its infancy, I'm in no mood to settle for the very first item I run across, that being the OIKOS stock from Virginia provenance. I think I can do better, but appreciate your input all the same.

+oM

edited to add: anyone here ever deal with Morse Nursery in Michigan? They seem to vaguely know what's up with growing oaks, rootmaker systems, etc.

You could plant bur oak and swamp white oak and wait a hundred years...

This is why I like the New Hampshire State Nursery. Seed source generally in my area. I always wonder if trees used to the deep south will have trouble adjusting to our New England winters. Also, with bare root mail orders there are issues with when it is appropriate to dig trees up there vs. here. When it is appropriate to plant them there...They may send trees while my ground is still frozen...

Johnson Nursery is in your region and comes up in searches for your Scheuttes oak, but I can't get their website to work. Have you tried Cold Stream Farm? At least it's not in the south...

Yes Ed, Johnson's is an outright leader in such matters, but a bit towards the Cadillac side of the pricing continuum. We'd go broke in a hurry dealing with those guys, although I do know the propagators there and they are on the right wavelength. Thanks for looking. I'll be checking out Coldstream as I do hear about them from time to time. I'm also waiting on Dax to notice this thread, as I suspect he'll know more than a little about the quest I'm on.

We've got swamp white and bur already planted at this and quite a few other of our stormwater sites. They're fine trees and would work if all else fails. Right now though, I'm still in the hunt for the Schuettes and perhaps some others.

+oM

I have not dealt with Morse. Some googling reveals mixed reviews, however. Mostly saying stock was small in size for the price. Although if they're using local MI sources they'd probably be better adapted for you in WI.

I have mixed feelings about oaks from vastly different climates. I've got Q. michauxii seedlings growing from IN seed that are 2 seasons old and some from an AR source one season old. The ones from IN have lost about 60% of their leaves (had good red color beforehand), the ones from AR are still green, however, they're only one season old, so time will tell since seedlings often keep their leaves later than mature plants. Being in zone 7 I'm kinda "in-between", and AR spans zones 6b to 8B IIRC, but the ones from IN are native to zone 6a or 6b.

It'll be interesting to see over time how they grow and behave. This year I collected some seed locally.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I saw too. You know, the self-propagating route does have its attractions to me, but the reality is I'm way overbooked already with what I've got on my plate. Too bad-we've got the original item growing all over this town, many of which are 3 to 4 hundred year-old trees! Plenty of acorns. If this particular site was only just a bit closer to one of those older parks where all the big old oaks are, it would not be beyond the realm of possibility that I could utilize a herd of squirrels to do my bidding! Literally, just placing little patches of woodchip mulch on the ground, the squirrels would plant acorns like crazy in that stuff. So they do in those old parks where such is available. At least for this one site, the one in question, it's out too far into the new section of town to rely on any natural recruitment.

I've told this story here before, but here goes again: So, perhaps twenty or more years ago, one of these giant old oak trees in the oldest park in town got hit by lightening. As you all know, a lightening strike does not always kill the tree outright, but in this case, it fried it right where it stood. We took it down some time later and after dropping the stub, counted the rings. We got lost in that center heartwood, where you can't really count rings anymore. But at that point, we were at 350!

+om

I have about the same experience with oaks from different climates as hairmetal. You might get lucky, but you might get unlucky as well. There are some english oaks planted along the highway not far from where I live. I don't know where they found them but they leaf out several weeks later than english oaks growing in the wood fifty yards further from the road. They look awful with lots of dead twigs after being hit by the frost every fall. I'm actually a bit surprised they still live after ten years.

Yeah, I can see that, Hug. Kind of the luck of the draw at that point. I'm not purist about anything really, but I do want to find local-and by this I mean within perhaps 500 miles!-genetics for this one. I'm not always that way about everything, but oak savannas were a common feature of the landscape, if not here, a little to our south and west, and I'd like to at least be in the ballpark in terms of genetics. We're even pickier about our prairie vegetation, using only that seed which is thought to have come from within 200 miles originally. That bit is not my doing-I alone here seem to realize that that very plant community-prairie-is not what was here before European settlement-but can't have your way about everything! As it is, we have two excellent stormwater engineers-these are the people I work with every day-that had done much good work before I ever had this dumped in my lap. As such, these people, while far more aware of plants than the typical engineer, were still easily led astray into the prairie bible, as I call it. But it's all good stuff anyway, and I just nibble around the edges with some of my initiatives, like all the "tree pods" we're installing consisting of two tree types that were common here at one time-tamarack and northern white cedar (Thuja occidentalis). Nobody-and I do mean nobody-would have come up with those kinds of ideas had I not been moved into this domain a few years back.

+oM

Hair, I've found numerous instances of where the USDA Plants Database is, just as you say, way too conservative in terms of a given species' range. Too many instances to count, but just for an example, I was on that bigtooth aspen kick here a couple weeks ago, and took a look at that map. Ridiculous, to be kind, the map only showed that tree to be present in this state in a handful of counties. I'd be willing to bet there is not one county in Wisconsin where there's not at least one resident population of bigtooth aspen. It's not a rare tree! But you'd never know it by those maps.

In their defense, if one is willing to offer good documentation, they will indeed update their maps. So it was with tamarack-they had it shown as not present in a county here that I drive through on the way to my land frequently, Shawano, pronounced shaw-no. Shawano county is loaded with tamarack, and I was able to give them some coordinates and indeed, an entire river basin that is loaded with the tree. These were far, far from isolated examples, but the USDA guys did change the map based on my input. But you're right, those maps are useful but not 100% accurate.

As to the range of Schuettes and indeed, of its parent species, if that map could in fact be believed, that would give one pause, but as it is, I don't think we can do so.

+oM

Maybe poke around here for some cheap bulk somewhat local seedlings.

Good luck with your project!!!

Thanks j0nd...taking a look now. so far, no Schuettes, but I have contacted them. I do like the range of size classes they offer.

+oM

I've ordered from them before. I only have experience with their smaller sizes, but what I have received has been good quality

Would you like to call them yourself to find the details and take me out of the loop? Just mention that "a friend called for you" and they'll know it is me.

920-927-3291

Dax

+oM,

Anothet example of the range maps being off a bit. Black Maple, Acer nigrum. There is a population of this species in Fairfax County, VA, including the state co-champions...yet the range map doesn't indicate it being native. FWIW, these are on/near the Potomac, so seed could have traveled downstream from the NW. Still, since they were not planted and arrived there by natural means (and didn't grow or naturalize from seed of nearby planted trees), I'd call them native.

If +oM was in a solid zone 5 I'd of recommended Q.lyrata or Q. x humidicola. The fall colors of both are wonderful.

lyrata is being more and more recognized as a tree for residential purposes among landscapers and is also being more recognized by foresters. It's my second or first favorite oak to floodplain macrocarpa (large caps/seed.)

On another note for +oM if he doesn't mind using macrocarpa - MO State Nursery has them as 100 for $32.00. I've been so impressed with what they send that I wouldn't hesitate to order anything they list. They're seedlings are outrageously large and very inexpensive and for 100 the shipping cost out of state is only $10 dollars.

The MO provenance of macrocarpa I would pinpoint as zone 4 and up. They're selling "large capped" seedlings to boot.

Dax

Thanks much Dax. I will indeed place a call to R.Ridge. I thought I'd looked them up already, but maybe not. In any case, that's a solid lead and I thank you.

This being a stormwater planting, we tend to use only native plants. As such, the lyrata et al, while interesting to me personally, would not fly. I will however study up on them for more general use, where the natives-only thing is not in play. And that Missouri stuff sounds good too, albeit not quite what I'd call local genetics. Truth is, I'm so convinced that x schuettes is the right plant for this job that I could conceivably soften up on that provenance thing.

Hair, I always think to myself, don't these trees know enough to read the books, look at the maps, lol! When offering an updated bit of range info, the USDA guys typically want some pretty detailed info. They would like GPS coordinates, etc. Me, I'm kind of a luddite...not really, but not very advanced when it comes to tech, so I just wrote in to them with the river drainage (within the county in question), the county roads that crisscross the given tree's range, etc. and they were good with that. I can't remember the species now, but I also sent in corrective data on some wild mallow I found growing on my land, and which, once again, was not indicated in their maps to be growing there. They picked up on that one too, although I myself can't remember what it was now!

+oM

Dax, I did just leave a voicemail with the R. Ridge guys. Thanks again....I knew you were going to be of help in this quest.

+oM

You're certainly welcome, +oM, anytime.

That Mallow is likely Napea dioica.

Dax

What are tree pods?

Oh, that's just my term for smallish groupings of trees within stormwater management practices. So for instance, we did a stream restoration, taking what had been roadside ditch and reconfiguring it to more closely resemble the original, meandering stream. Wetland depressions were a part of this mitigation-required by the fact that some minor wetland areas were disturbed in the project. So, even though all such practices are based on models, typically the 100 yr. flood map, no woody plants are allowed within the actual flow lines, since they would tend to both impede flow directly but also, hold onto floating debris, creating ever-greater blockage. We "work with nature" but at the end of the day, priority number one is flood control. So these pods are usually sited just off line of the projected 100 yr. flood. I've been using tamarack and white cedar as they represent plant community types once much, much more common in places like here. It's a way, among other things, of increasing the overall diversity of the sites, beyond mere plant species diversity, towards what I view as the more legitimate need for greater plant community-type diversity. In other words, much of these sites is planted in prairie. hey, that's just fine and dandy, but this area was never big on that plant community type. It offers some practical benefits, such as, like IO alluded to above, the ability of forbs and grasses to lay down flat when big flows hit, unlike the trees and shrubs that would have formerly been in place. Can't have it all, but I do derive considerable satisfaction in being able to design and foster these various items. I guess it would be fair to say that this city-for which I work-is quite a ways ahead of the pack when it comes to stormwater management. Many communities just dig stormwater ponds, with cool-season (all non-native_ turf grasses right up to the shore. We're literally miles beyond that.

+om

ps....I like to visit S. Florida and man, I got to tell you, those folks don't know a darn thing about any of this! Very primitive, for a state, which like Wisconsin, is full of water.

On the project where I want to use the oaks, the stormwater engineer with whom I work closely is requiring that we honor the 500 yr. flood zone! Different site, different conditions. But not to worry...that project is going to happen!

I like your squirrel-as-minion idea. I've been experimenting along those lines this fall as a way to influence plant communities along unclear borders...

I tried-and mostly failed-to have our Parks Dept. adopt this as a purposeful strategy in some of our older parks that are still full of legacy oak trees. As horticulturist, I had plenty of opportunity to notice how readily the bushy-tailed rats would bury seeds of primarily oaks and hickories in any mulched bed, be it a shrub bed, a ring around an existing tree, one of my flower beds, whathaveyou. Planting nice nursery-grown trees is just fine but you can't beat retaining the actual genetics of the original forest. Most couldn't wrap their heads around what I was suggesting, then later still, I got moved into Engineering-a division of Public Works-so don't even have much to do with those parks anymore. Luckily for me, this changeover has been a new lease on life for me in terms of new challenges and obviously, opportunities do do some cool stuff.

I would highly recommend that wherever valuable nut-bearing trees are still around, that squirrels be employed in the fashion I outlined. They bury far more than what they will later dig up!

+oM

My strategy was more to buy hickory nuts in bulk and gather acorns on hikes...then give them to squirrels near the weedy scrub area along my parents property line, toss them into the swampy areas behind my significant other's fence...hopefully add oaks and acorns to areas mostly filled with descendants of front yard maples...

I read somewhere that blue jays are more effective at dispersing acorns then squirrels, so I tried putting some in bird feeders. Message me in 20 years to see if this worked...

Ideally I'd want beach nuts...more likely to survive in the shade of the maples, but they aren't available in enough bulk to make this inefficient strategy practical.

Sorry to to hijack this thread, but I figured you were mostly waiting to hear from gardener365.

No, all good stuff Ed. thanks.

+oM

Heh, Reeseville Ridge must be busy. Left voicemail early in the day yesterday. No respondo. Oh well, I'll get back on it next week.

+oM

Right..... let us know.

Dax

Hi Dax,

Back in 2012, I was in contact with Will Forster in E Illinois and he mentioned sending you some Quercus lyrata acorns he had collected. He also had found a mature Quercus michauxii tree that I had him search for from herbarium records near Hutsonville in the Wabash River area, but no acorns were available that year. That would be at the northern limit of michauxii range and possibly be hardy to Zone 4b-5a since it was in a river bottom area with cold air drainage (nearby Palestine Illinois has recorded -23F in the recent past). I have not been able to contact him with the email address he was using at that time, so I thought I would see if you have any contact info.

Thanks,

Larry

Tom, check windbreaktrees.com

They do sell what they call swamp bur oak. They are in Iowa but I do not know where they source their material. They have stock in many sizes.

I messaged you, Larry.

Dax

The "Swamp Bur Oak" is a fancy way of saying Schuette's Oak...IMHO.

Thanks Icadem. Will do.

+oM

Monday morning, and still no response from R. Ridge. Hmmm, most strange. Usually, no matter how busy, nursery folks will respond to someone potentially needing 100 of the plants they sell!

+om

If it were me and that's just me, I'd call again. Maybe there was a death in the family or someone is ill.

Dax

Any confirmation on whether "swamp but oak" is Schutte's oak, or what seed source windbreak trees uses? I'm following this saga with baited breath.

Did do just that Dax. We shall see. This time around, via the site's "Contact Us" option.

Ed, I've got a message into that outfit too-Windbreaktrees.com...so we'll eventually learn what they have to say. I have little doubt it is one and the same, albeit no two such hybrids are necessarily alike. I was able to generate quite a list of sources to look into late last week. I'm at the point in my working year however where, if this doesn't fall into place quickly and relatively painlessly, it will have to get shunted off to 2016. I don't really have enough time left in this year to necessarily get all of my projects into play, but I do have those items which must happen. So honestly, I'm already starting to look at this as a project for next year, which would essentially mean a spring 2017 planting. We have things like budgets, etc. lol. Can't just shoot from the hip all the time! If I don't line this up basically this week, I'm putting it aside for next year, which again, would actually mean 2017 planting. So it goes. Have to admit, it was kind of a sudden inspiration on my part-not something I've been planning for months.

+oM

So, in the end, it is or will most likely be Johnson's after all. So, as I said, I know those guys well and have much respect for their business model. They do tend to run towards the higher end of the pricing continuum, but in this case, it turns out they have exactly what we're after, at a price that, while considerable, is not a deal-breaker. So, local genetics-they're SE Wisconsin, we're east-central Wisconsin, close enough...#5 Rootmaker pots-good stuff, and 3 to 5 ft. plant height. It's all too good to pass up.

Don't have my actual numbers tied down yet, but will try to free up some time to go over the site with lath or stakes to mark and get the count. Thanks to all who contributed to this search.

+oM

Well, +oM, you do usually get what you pay for, as they say.

I just wish there were a Johnson's-like nursery near me (with the rootpruning pots and all). There are some that grow local provenance, and some that use rootpruning pots, but not both.

There are good nurseries, don't get me wrong, but nothing quite like that, unless I haven't discovered them yet.

I get you, Hair. Can't these folks just get caught up...to 1990! Things do seem to change slowly in the nursery industry, not on the research end, but in practice. Johnson's got way out ahead of the pack in terms of seed sourcing, growing techs, etc. and I do appreciate that. They're also the host of the annual Southeast Wisconsin Invasive Species Consortium, which I try to attend. Above average in terms of knowledge, impact, foresight, all the things that tend to make a workshop valuable. Plus, head grower Mike Yanny typically begins the event with either a poem or a song he's written special for the event. Yes, it's just as goofy as it sounds, but in a good way.

+om