I need roots that "go down, not out"

==>>> no such thing ...

and ten feet is awful close ... especially in hard clay ... if that is what you have ...

have you ever done a perk test ... to find out.. how bad your clay is??? ..

if it were really bad.. i dont know how the weep field would even function ... so i think this variable might be important ...

ken

It is not suggested to plant ANY tree within 20 feet of a septic drain or leach field, even those smaller growing ones with less aggressive root systems. But there are many different types of septic systems and conditions can vary. I have seen septic drain fields installed here in the midst of large existing native conifers that have hugely wide root systems that stretch for hundreds of feet! It depends entirely on the septic design.

It is always best to check with the designer/installer of your septic system to get their recommendations - repairing root damage to a septic field can be a very costly operation! Generally the recommendation is to restrict any plantings to shallow rooted herbaceous plants - perennials, grasses, bulbs or groundcovers.

gardengal48 is certainly correct that the type of septic system and its overall design are crucially important. Two other factors that come into play, however, are the composition of the native soil as well as the usual rainfall pattern. Any good sized plant will send its roots into the areas where moisture is most abundant - under large rocks, into cellars, etc.. When the leach field is the area of greatest moisture because the native soil drains particularly well and/or there are regular extended periods of low rainfall, roots will quickly fill and clog the drain field. A good design does take these factors into consideration, but in the absence of specific local ordinances, many designs do not. The expense of septic system repair, as gardengal48 noted, is often huge. Having the whole system back up into the living area with the attendant damage and mess is a joy no homeowner will ever forget. No tree is worth the risk.

Well that is a disappointment! Yardvaark over in landscape design drew me a perfectly lovely front landscape...kinda hinges on the trees tho. -sigh. I have never had any soil test. People tell me it's clay, tho the clay I have had in other places is hard but also moldable in a way. This is rock hard when it dries out- i jump and jump on a shovel and it only goes in an inch or two,but the top is like powder. Like ash almost. I am sure the septic is not designed for this kind of endeavor, it is a drip system, which basically means a grid of pipes with holes drilled into them placed just inches below the surface. My grass looks great...in rows about 6 inches apart! Is a crape myrtle size shrub-y thing too much too?

I have clay soil and a 96' x 106' oak near and over my drain field. The field was installed in 1957 and last replaced in the late 90's.

The tree will not help your drain field. It isn't a death sentence though. I figure it will hasten spending $10,000 to replace the field though.

https://pubs.ext.vt.edu/426/426-617/426-617_pdf.pdf

Have friends who own/operate a private arboretum in IL. Septic leach lines run out through a heavily wooded area - and have for 30+ years. Twice yearly flushing CuS04 down the toilet has limited root incursion; they've never had to replace tank or leach field lines.

http://www.almacity.com/assets/Forms/Tree%20Root%20Control.pdf

Willows/maples seem to be the worst offenders, IMO. First home we had...red maple roots had grown under the septic tank lid, formed a huge mat inside the tank and grew in through the septic pipe, into the house and up to the tub and toilet. If I'd known then about CuSO4, it might not have happened... but in a 40 year old house that we bought 4-5 years earlier, I don't know how long it had taken for them to get to that point

I have a Q. Velutina and Q. Prinus/Montana near our septic field, also a macintosh apple tree. I am not expecting anything bad to happen. I have a raised up area near the leach field that should (hopefully) help for the moisture to settle there. I am not worried about those 3 trees making me any trouble, there is about 20 feet from their current branch spread to the leach field. Poaky1

Okay, The Q.Velutina and Q. Prinus/montana are about 50 feet from my house. However they are too far away to shade my house very soon. I have sowed 2 Q.Alba ACORNS about 6 ft from my homes brick exterior. So when mature the Q. Alba could likely have a trunk circumfurance of 12 feet and be okay. I am thinking I should sow these 2 acorns a wee bit farther from the house. I have a full basement in my house. I can;t go too much further over to the east as far as sowing these acorns, because I have a greenhouse there. I just may try and grow a faster growing hybrid oak there. I must also remember that a seed/acorn grown White oak will grow faster than a dug up seedling. I should perhaps try and sow the acorns a bit further out from the house, and then if the acorn/seedling doesn't grow well, I can plant a larger transplant of an oak or other tree. poaky1

poaky1: Your trees, your leach field, your choice, but... 20 feet is not very far and tree roots will seek the area of greatest moisture, despite expectations to the contrary. Root invasion is slow and subtle. One day everything seems to be fine and the next day you're calling the guy with the backhoe. I'm also pretty sure I'd avoid eating any apples from a tree that close to a leach field..

Quote: " I have sowed 2 Q.Alba ACORNS about 6 ft from my homes brick exterior.
So when mature the Q. Alba could likely have a trunk circumfurance of 12
feet and be okay."

Did you mean to say that you thought it was OK to have a tree with a 12 foot circumference, (3.5 feet in diameter) 6 feet from your house?

If so this is way to close. Assuming the tree has a 40 diameter canope then the closest you should plant it to the house is about 20 feet. Then when mature you may have to trim some to keep the tree out of the house.

Well, Knuttle, I figured if it grew out (trunk) 6 ft out on each side, it would then be (just the trunk) a 12 foot wide trunk. But I never would think it would actually EVER get that huge anyway. I am going to likely move those acorns a foot or 3 out from where they are, because I kept thinking about it myself being too close. But I can't plant it exactly where I want it. We have a septic system that is in the way of me putting the acorns in the perfect spot. I have seen pictures of large Q. Albas near homes from the Victorian times, and they had basements much shallower than mine. I may be replacing the Q. Alba with some other acorns of an oak that MAY be a hybrid of BurrXChinkapin. That is a big MIGHT BE. I am going to put the acorns out a bit further. I have in the past done this, and then culled them out of fear, but, if I can move them out a bit further, and the tree not being in the way much, I will. But, When the tree gets huge it would need to be about 16 ft wide(trunk only) to hit the house. If there has ever been a mature oak (besides Q. Virginiana, or Fusiformis) that is 16 ft or as originally mentioned 12 ft wide, let me know. What I mean by how wide, I mean, if you cut the tree down, and measured the stump leftover from one edge to the exact opposite edge, could an Q. Alba, Burr or Chinkapin for that matter ever have a measurement across the trunk (single bole) of 12 ft? This isn't how most folks measure trees so I get the reason you seemed unsure what I meant. As far as the branchspread, that isn't a big deal, just limb it up till it is above the sides of the house, people do it all the time. To the OP sorry I am taking over the thread here a bit, but it is on topic "sorta". We just got a new metal roof, we do have a few vents, but, even a tree 20 ft away will be a launching pad for varmints. I already have a tree that is about 25 ft away that shades the house in the late afternoon, early evening. A Pin oak, in a few years it will be varmint trampoline, maybe is already. But I want something for the worst heat of the summer. I know that roots grow past the limbspread, but, acorn grown trees roots will adapt to their situation, (well in my mind they do) I have seen ruins in photos of old (ancient) temples, and there are tree roots everywhere and the ruins haven't moved a bit. I am going to move any acorns there out a few more feet. I can likely do that. I will need to research our Pa Big Trees website, to see what to expect. I hope I have made sense in my explanation. I don't know of any roots penetrating good condition foundation blocks(cement, not clay) with brick on the outside of that. Not an oak anyway. If I can I will sow the acorns 9 ft from my house, the tree will go towards my house at the most,6 feet, and 6 ft out from it on the other side, IF the tree gets 12 ft wide, meaning JUST the trunk. The limbs can be pruned, and will likely not want to grow towards the house anyway, with no light source til you get over to the roof level. Hope I explained good enough. Poaky1

First from your above message, I assume when you say 12 feet, you actually mean 12 inches (30.5 cm) It will take about 20 years for the tree truck to get that large depending on the tree. When considering the placement of a tree you can not consider the trunk diameter but the diameter of the canopy.

I have an Nuttal oak that was planted 4 years, ago, it was about 12 feet tall when it was planted. At that time the trunk diameter was about 4 inches. and the canopy was about 6' (extended 3' from the trunk) Today the canopy is about double that or 12 feet in diameter and the trunk 6 inches in diameter.

I planted the tree about 25 feet from my house on the assumption the canopy of the mature tree would be about 40 to 50 feet in diameter. or nearly touching the house at maturity.

Some 15 to 20 year old trees have canopies that are 20 to 30 feet in diameter. so if they were planted 6 feet from the house the trees would be tearing up the siding and eaves as the moved in the wind. Point the tree canopy expands quite quickly and will be in your house much sooner that you think. As an example look at some of what could have been beautiful trees if that had not been planted to close to the line of the power and telephone lines.

No Knuttle, I do indeed mean 12 feet. I have a single floor, (besides the basement) home with brick siding, the basement has cement block, with the brick on the outside of the cement block. The tree which now will be a Deamii oak, ChinkapinX Burr oak hybrid, grown from acorns, (no longer Q. Alba) and it will be about 12 feet from the brick house. The branch canopy can be limbed up about 18 feet, or less, and will be able to get as wide as it wants to. THose branches will not be growing towards the house (no light) anyway. I said 12 feet from the house, because I wanted to allow for the oaks bole, diameter to be WAY LARGER than could be expected. And to allow for the roots to get some "GRAB" on the side towards the house. If I would only allow 12 inches for the trunks width on the side, the tree would get much bigger. I allowed 12 feet, so there would be an outrageous amount of room for that trunk. I hope I explained it good now. I am sure that the trunk will have plenty of room, I sowed the Q. Deamii hybrid acorns 9-10 ft from the house. There should be at LEAST 4 feet from the house, and those roots will be initially a taproot and some surface roots. I am not worried.

With the tree over hanging the house you are constantly going to have leaves and acorns on the roof and the problem of limbs dropping on the house.

The oak leave will stain your roof and the shade will prevent the roof area from completely drying out.

The taller the tree gets the less of a factor light will be in determining the shape of the canopy. The tree itself will be the one shading out other plants and trees not visa versa.

It is never a good idea to have a tree over hanging a building. There are people who advocate cutting trees down if they even look like they or part of them will fall on a house.

"It is never a good idea to have a tree over hanging a building. There
are people who advocate cutting trees down if they even look like they
or part of them will fall on a house."

This is really a matter of opinion or personal choice rather than a firm 'no-no' :-) And it depends a great deal on the species of the tree in question.

I will go so far as to say overhanging a home was more desireable pre air conditioning era. Now electricity cost and tree trimming costs seem competitive to me.

In my poorly insulated 1950's ranch my electric bill is probably $75 a month higher (inflation guestimated adjusted) with the 3 overhanging ash and the rotting silver maple removed. Say 6 months of A/C use to ~$500 ish a year is what it cost me to go from as fully shaded as anyone could be with Ash branches grown over the centerline of my home. Now maintaining those trees even w/o EAB was going to cost me SOMETHING. Eigher I had some climbing to do or I had to pay someone $$$ to prune and inspect my trees.

To me this means there is now minimal savings to being fully shaded.

Especially if (unfortunately for us tree lovers) home insurance companies start charging extra (like they should) for trees over a house.

Toronado, I remember you had ASH trees over your house. I had seen them listed on an article of "Trees to never plant in your yard" these Ashes were there among several others: Poplars, Silver maple , Q. Aspen, Willows, Eucalyptus and some others. I know you are trying to give good advice that people will not die or be injured by fallen trees. I however believe that a Q. BurrXChinkapin oak hybrid about 10 ft away from my house now, and about 25 ft from the lid of the septic tank, and many more feet from the drain field, will give us shade on our STEEL roof, with it;s gutters with gutter gaurds on it. I am seeing to have cheaper air conditioning needs, I am GUESSING that the existing attic will be a good buffer in the chance of roof collapse SEVERAL YEARS LATER if that would happen, nobody should get hurt. Not to diss you Toronado. But, you do indeed believe your Shingle oak is fine to leave intact, I would IMAGINE because it is an oak, tree you know isn't likely to fall apart and kill someone. No bad mojo to you Toronado, but, would you NOT have more faith in an oak? Especially, a WHITE oak, versus RED OAK? With them being a bit tougher and longer lived usually. Poaky1

I am not sure my acorns are indeed BurrXChinkapin oak acorns, they may be Sawtooth oak acorns, a garbage oak. But, anyway, I know we now in this day and age have air-conditioning etc. But, If I can plant a quality tree to shade the south side of my house, and I don't have to pay that huge electric bill, I am all for it. In the situation of confusion of the location of the acorns/trees from the house. I was allowing for a super large distance from the house, so 25 inches assumed, really meant 25 feet etc. Sorry for any confusion. I will be removing the previously thought Q. Deamii acorns, they are likely Sawtooth oak, a garbage tree. Poaky1

I have mature pecan trees that have grown around the perimeter of my leach field for over 30 years, never any septic problems. I did use some copper sulfate last year, but just as a preventative.

Alabama, I am sure there are lots of trees around homes in the south. You guys don't have basements I hear but, I think that only the worst of roots in a dry foundation should be trouble. I have seen many pics of huge Live oaks around homes in the south. I think Pecans have a habit of putting down long taproots and rootsystems before they will get large aboveground. I will likely get rid of the acorns I've sown, because they could be Sawtooth acorns. A live fast die young oak. I want to plant a Compton's oak there, but they are out of stock where I got mine. Bama, would the copper sulfate just prevent roots from going further? Your sure it won't kill the tree? Poaky1

Well, I have nearly decided on which tree to grow near my house and septic field. I am not totally sure, but, I just may dig up a Compton's oak I have planted, and plant it near my house. But, I just ordered 5 Q. Robur seeds from Seattle, Wash. From ebay. The Q. Robur would'nt put out those wide out spreading limbs over the roof. But, would shade it from the upwords growth which would be on the southern side of the tree.. I was gonna go Sycamore, but those seedballs would get stuck in my leafgaurds, since they are small particulates. There are some beautiful european oaks (the European Turkey oak) but I think I already have a Cerris oak, If Cerris oak is the European Turkey oak, as one source on the internet says. So anyway. I am likely to either plant the Compton;s oak a bit further out than I sowed the Sawtooth acorns, or Sow the Q. Robur acorns where I want the shade tree to be. I am not sure which way to go. Maybe, the Q. Robur would be better near the house. The Compton;s would be sorta like a Live oak tree near a house. My Q. Robur (from acorns a few years ago) just got about 3 acorns this year, no more than that so far. But, Anyhoo. Anyone have a acorn or 2 of a nice european acorn, I haven't thought of that would be a good oak to try to grow near a house? If no new news, I would love to see some peoples nice shade trees that are doing great near your homes foundation, or side of your home that is doing fine, with no problem to you, etc. Paoky1

I must say that the "Cerris oak" seems to look different as far as leaf ID's of the European Cerris oaks, online compared to the one I have in my yard. I need to just post later, no more today. Poaky1

Okay, I am going to try to get a quick opinion, Compton's (large spread of foliage) or the Q. Robur with a smaller limbspread than the Compton;s oak.

The copper sulfate will just kill any roots that come into contact with it. I had a pipe installed so I can pour it straight into my leach field, bypassing the septic tank.

Okay Alabama, I likely don't need to worry for a while. I am going to plant another Compton's oak near the house. I was able to order 2 more and also a Q. Pagoda from the Mossy oak nursery. They had a small number of them in stock, but not enough to show on their website that they were "in stock". I am still on the fence about whether to plant the Compton's, or the Q. Robur (acorn) on the south side of the house. I already have a Compton's oak about 40-50 feet down in line with where the Compton's or Q. Robur will be. It will be more uniform if I go with the Compton's. I'm hoping they will resemble a couple Live oaks (kinda oak alley" looking) but they aren't Live oaks. Alabama, when you say "some" copper sul, how much is enough, but, not too much, just enough? I have a Rock chestnut oak and Q. Velutina kinda in the drainfield. But, I may treat in a few years, not yet.

I used a whole bottle like this...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BQWKUQ/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_2?pf_rd_p=1944687522&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0009X8P28&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0X0QSXDYC80SCN0W8Y6E

Well when it leaves the septic tank it goes to the leach field. My trees haven't noticed it one bit.

alabamatreehugger: Very small amounts of copper sulfate may enter the leach field from a septic tank, but the vast majority of it will settle to the bottom of the tank in the area known as the sludge layer along with other solids. What enters the lateral lines and from there the leach field comes from the middle layer which consists of clarified liquid. By introducing the chemical directly into the leach field, you're vastly increasing the amount of copper sulfate in the soil of the leach field and quite likely beyond it. What the long term cosequences may be depend heavily on the soil type, natural patterns of drainage and a host of other factors. Two things are certain: You are using copper sulfate in a way it was not intended to be used and you are adding large amounts of a relatively toxic chemical to your soil.

I have a Silver Eastern Redcedar (Junipers Virginiana 'Glauca') 17 feet from my leach field and there is zero root intrusion. Granted, I put it 17 feet from the END of the line, where there is less moisture (I recommend this). Closer to the line, you could try something like a Steed's Holly for evergreen or a dwarf/miniature crabapple type tree for deciduous. I live in the middle of a forest and there are trees and bushes all around my lines. The idea is to follow logic - don't plant something that gets big closer than 20 ft...and NEVER a maple or a willow. EVER. I chose Eastern Redcedar because they can tolerate extreme drought so they won't be as likely to plug up a drain field, and because it is native to my area.

I am not worried about clogging my drain field lines really. I am slightly worried about roots growing over our septic tank lid though. But, when it needs cleaned we can just cut through any roots over the small area where the lid is. About 3x3, is about the size. There isn't much soil covering it anyway, I just ride over the indention in the ground with the tractor. I am using RIDX to prevent the need to have the tank pumped. I went for a ride today and noticed some trees very close to houses, but they likely had sewer hookups. But, as johniferous mentioned being surrounded by woods, up in our "laurel highlands," there are tons of small plots with houses with many many trees right up to the homes and they surely have sand mounds or septic tanks. Well, anyhow, I am going to plant a Compton's oak where I was gonna plant either the Q. Robur or Compton's. I was originally going to plant the Q. Deamii. But it is (after help from Dax and others) not really a Q. Deamii, but is a Q. Accutissima. Which doesn't last long, it's a live fast die young tree, like an 1980's metal band, some of them at least. Poaky1

Planting a wrong tree can clogged or damaged drainage lines. You can plant trees less likely to damage your septic system such as cherry, white and red oak, pine and sourwood etc.

I'd be real careful planting anything with substance near your septic tank. Look how a Dwarf Hinoki, Chamaecyparis obtusa 'Nana' grew next to my tank after 30 years. I was lucky I caught it in time. That was about to do some real serious damage. When I planted the 'dwarf' I had no idea it would get as tall as the gutters are high.

Those tanks aren't very strong. My first one broke on the bottom as soon as they lowered it into the hole and broke completely broke apart when the tried to remove the rest of it. All they saved were the lids.

Mike

There has been a huge interest in both composting toilets and water filtration systems over here - we have what is essentially a huge latrine hole in our wood which we have surrounded with the sort of trees which thrive on removing toxins from soil and will also deal with human waste prime amongst them are various salix, especially the smaller shrubby osiers, as well as perennial sunflowers (these are being used in soil reclamation areas for phyto-remediation). The willows, especially Britzensis and Chermesina, daphnoides and green viminalis, look gorgeous all season, but especially in winter - dogwoods are also suitable (but only the shrubby sanguinea or c.alba). As I understand it, this is what a leach field is...and yes, there are plants which can be planted practically on top of the latrines (although I draw the line at phragmites australis).

Red Horsechestnut

Vera, I agree with your examples of good trees, except the Cherry, unless you mean a dwarf cherry. My Grandma had a beautiful Cherry tree, but it did a real number on her cement walk and carport, it was a big Cherry variety however. My choice in trees near my septic area, are white oak tree varieties. I may remove one of them, because of the mature size of those white oak family trees I have. I will never see the mature size myself though. I have 2 Compton's oaks, a Q. Alba and a SW Chestnut oak on the south side of my house, one of the Compton's is kinda far from the house, the other 3 will shade the house eventually. I may remove the Alba, it is a rooted acorn right now, and the easiest to remove.

Go with some winterberry Ilex verticillata. Not really a tree but you wont have to worry about them invading your septic tank itself and they put on quite the show in the winter when they are covered with berries. They are also native and provide wildlife food. They love wet crappy soil.

Hah, funny Treebird, "wet crappy soil". I have decided to remove the Quercus Alba "rooted acorn" MAYBE,. If I remove the Q. Alba acorn/future tree seedling, I will have no trees RIGHT INFRONT OF MY HOUSE, ON THE SOUTH SIDE. So if I then keep the seedlings I have planted previously where they are, it will be a small wait, perhaps 5 years before the trees I have planted near my house, on the south side, will start to shade some of my house from the southwest to the southeast. To be clear in what I am saying, "I have 2 Compton's oak seedlings, near the eastern exposure of my" house".. On the "Western exposure, there is a " Swamp Chestnut tree" several feet from the Compton's oak seedlings. But, it is best to be able to possibly be able to keep tree tissue and plant regeneration possibilities going straight ahead with the trees I ,have. I am now depending on my 2 " Compton's oak" seedlings. Which eventually will be wanting to "host" some seedlings. As far as my homes southern "light exposure", there are "energies", that can be used by "whatever force" is using our post ideas.

Quercus Alba