Kitchengirl,

if you are coming to the DC area, the Miele Showroom in Tysons is a good place to see a lot of the Miele appliances and the ovens are hooked up. Gaggenau is another option in your search but the prices are discouraging in that they are a 30-40% premium over Miele. If you want to see Gaggenau operational, may I suggest ABW in Silver Spring? They have Gaggenaus installed. I believe they also have Wolfs hooked up but you may want to call to verify. They also have Mieles installed. They also have Bluestar and ELux hooked up the last time I was there.

Good luck!

Homepro: Thanks very much for these suggestions. I set up an appointment with Miele at Tysons, but did not know about ABW. I crossed Gaggenau off fairly early in my hunt b/c I live in a low-population state and also do not want to pay the premium you mentioned, to be frank. But perhaps I could do all my looking at one showroom, so I will see what they have live now. Thanks for the link!

Not a problem Kitchengirl. Best of luck on your hunt. I love Gaggenau but cannot justify the price although I am lusting after the 36" Miele oven that Chanop linked above. It is a very reasonable $13k Australian dollars:-)

Add another dollar, it would be 14k, double of the 24" model. If I am not mistaken, its widths, features, and interface are the same as those in Duel Fuel ranges 36", just a little bit less tall 3 racks vs 6 racks in DF ranges.

I also ruled out Gaggenau, Bosch, Siemens, Neff (basically all of BSH) and AEG/Electrolux in my hunt for combi steam oven due to the fact that those models are evaporative steam oven where steam is generated by the heated well at the bottom in contrast to Miele, V-ZUG (Wolf), and Asko (ATAG) ovens which have steam injected into cavity. Manufacturers claim more precise temperature and humidity control for steam injection method, as well as, easier cleaning of the floor and less lime scale build up in the cavity.

As for risotto in the steam oven, I have not cooked one myself yet, but did taste one at the demo cooking. It was pretty decent. At the end of the cooking you still stir the rice with extra butter, or oil, or cheese, together with releasing starch from the rice itself to get the creaminess. Even for stove top method, some chefs recommend no stirring, just small addition of liquid ladle by ladle and stir at the very end.

My self, I have been cooking risotto in pressure cooker which basically is similar to how it is cooked in a steam oven, just a touch faster, 7-8 minutes and rice to liquid 1 to 2 in volume. Steam oven uses the same ratio, but takes a bit longer 15-20 minutes.

His view was that the oven lining change-outs were mostly on the L-series, and much fewer on the E-series.

Why should this be the case? The interior design of both models is exactly the same! Maybe people who buy the E series use their ovens less? I don't know. Anyhow I heard about plenty of chipping issues with the E series. But, it sure is a convenient excuse, since the L series is now discontinued. As he said, the M series is a complete new design and I haven't heard about any chipping instances. If you go Wolf, get the M!

my sales guy really is against Elux: he said he has had no end of trouble in recent years with unhappy customers having purchased a kitchen full of Elux appliances

I bought mine last year, not long ago at all. And if anything the quality has improved since the line came out in 2008, since they have been making many engineering revisions since then. As I said before, you don't care about the experiences of people who bought an entire Electrolux kitchen, since you're just buying an oven. You have to look at it product by product. The Electrolux fridges and dishwashers have had serious issues, and those appliances are most likely the main origin of the problems the salesman was talking about. The story on their cooking products is much better.

hvtech42 wrote, in part: "... since the L series is now discontinued."

This must be very recent; the Wolf Design Guide.pdf that I downloaded from SZ/Wolf's website on 18 August still shows the L series on page 19 et seq.

kas

They were recently replaced by the M series. They haven't updated their website yet because plenty of dealers still have them in stock.

Chanop: I was re-reading posts from before I left on my trip and caught the part where you ruled-out evaporative steam ovens: I assume that Thermador uses evaporative steam (and Bosch and Gaggenau)? I did not know about this distinction. I have toyed with Thermador rather than Miele or Wolf, but the issue is the smaller steam oven with water canister on the side rather than the top (and I have now switched to the "two oven matching brand" idea, whereas when I started this post, I was thinking to choose steam-combi and wall oven brands separately and have them separated in the kitchen).

A brief report on my visit to Miele and Wolf showrooms: I was impressed by the interface of the Miele steam-combi and wall ovens, and was able to compare the M-touch and SensorTronic controls (swipe & touch technology vs. touchscreen). Both are nice and functional; the swipe + touch interface is certainly more up-to-date, like a smart phone, but the menus are close to identical. I asked a lot of questions about plumbed vs. unplumbed versions of the combi-steam and about the cleaning required. I also asked questions about the Moisture Plus feature on the M-Touch wall oven and asked when they preferred using the Combi-steam or the wall oven for different cooking applications. The Miele staff was helpful and frank. My overall impression was that I really liked the Mieles and their quality. I think that their engineering tends toward more complexity: the Combi-steam oven has a drain, a grease screen and a fresh water source/container + a waste water. The Wolf, by comparison, has only the fresh water container, no drain, no grease screen.

I did not get a good idea of how much the Wolf steam-combi functionality differs from the Miele. The showroom rep uses the oven, but doesn't lead cooking demos, as the Miele rep does, so I couldn't get an apples:apples comparison. I have read that the Wolf's menu can be tedious to work through, but I did not notice it specifically in my demo.

I got a good overview of the new M-series menu and its operation, and took a good look at the M vs. the E, bearing in mind hvtech's admonition to only consider the M. I really like the clean LOOK of the E's control panel, but the oven lacks the Gourmet options, and of course, has the history of chipping. The Gourmet settings do things like start your roast at a very high setting and automatically dials back the temp. at a certain TIME (I don't think it changes the time dependent on your rareness/internal temp. choice) without your having to return to the oven and do it yourself. The M has its probe receptacle in the ceiling of the oven without a cover, whereas the E has the receptacle on the upper side with an annoying cover (I could tell that was an annoyance for the patient rep) that might be very hot when you need to uncover it and insert the probe.

I likely omitted points in my summary, so please ask.

In sum, for myself, it comes down to preferring the Miele external design, but having a concern about more, and more difficult, cleaning with the steam-combi AND believing that the Miele wall oven will not bake quite as evenly as the Wolf; its Moisture Plus feature is a plus, however. On the Wolf side, I prefer the simplicity of its steam-combi (yet do not really know about the controls on it, and somewhat greater limitations on steam settings vs. the Miele) and while I do not care for any of the exterior designs of the wall oven (except the E-series, which I really like), I feel that it is well-designed on the interior (with nice "handles" on the fronts of the rack) and perhaps most importantly, I think that Wolf customer service is proving itself responsive to online issues.

To be fair, a week ago, I did hear back from Miele's East Coast customer service after my inquiry, and they have renegotiated/clarified their service contract for greater distance coverage, and therefore will service my potential purchase.

Clearly, I haven't yet made up my mind! It is always +s and -s, never just one or the other.

Did you cook in any of these ovens?

hvtech: Sorry, I had earlier written part of an answer and then delayed posting and somehow cut that part. No, I was so tightly scheduled on my trip and weather was bad driving 100 miles (4 hours) in a storm to the Wolf showroom, that I was not able to cook (and as I explained in the earlier cut post, I could not find the d**n cut and bake cookies or a supermarket en route to the showrooms. So I just used the functioning control panels and interviewed the reps extensively.

"I think that Wolf customer service is proving itself responsive to online issues."

I have always found them to be prompt in answering emails and very polite.

Thanks for the input, wekick.

kitchengirl: I ruled out the evaporative models based on sale pitches that steam injected models would be easier to clean due to two reasons, no steam bay at the bottom as well as there will be less (or no) lime scale build up in the oven cavity. Another pitch was that steam injected model would be better at controlling humidity level.

Plumbed Zug and Miele models that I looked at all had waste drain. Non-plumbed Zug and Wolf models on the other hand do not have drain as you have discovered. FWIW, Zug models that I looked at were of newer 2015 bunch which had colour TFT display and a bigger control knob. Wolf models are similar to the previous Zug generation which uses text display.

Search some youtube videos for V-Zug combi steam oven. Here is a video that describes its functionality and interface, for which it should be applicable to Wolf models.

This play list should also be a good start.

I have also been to V-Zug cooking demonstration class during consideration and learnt some differences to Miele ovens. Zug's approach to oven control seems to be to give user simpler interface that would just work. Those Auto Steam Bake and Gourmet programs (Bakomatic and Profesional baking in Zug's terms, I think) are fairly simple to use. Miele programs on M-touch are as east to use, but it has a lot more categories that user has to navigate through.

For pure steam mode, they are pretty much similar in both interface and behaviour in that that you can control steaming temp to varying degree.

For Wolf convection humid, I am not sure if there is a direct correspondence with Miele mode. This mode does not have any steam injected, but a valve on the top of the oven is closed so that humidity from food is retained within the cooking cavity. For Miele, you probably can do this by setting humidity level manually.

For convection steam, Wolf does not seems t have any user control for humidity level. Perhaps, it is programmed to be temperature dependent or something along that line. For Miele, you can control humidity from 0 - 100% (not sure what unit is for %) in 5% incremental.

For the rest of oven functionalities, they are pretty much similar, except for broiler element, top and bottom heat modes in Miele.

There are a few more differences that I have learnt. Wolf has a steam reduction button that you can use at any time. Miele has a steam reduction that would only work at the end of steaming program. There is no user override button.

For accessories, Wolf food probe is a wired probe while Miele M-touch model is a wireless probe which is also dishwasher safe.

Wolf comes with 4 level racks, Miele 3. Usable internal volume is a touch bigger in Wolf as there is no broiler element to get in the way of the top most rack.

Wolf has a full size thin solid stain steel tray which is good as a drip tray in steaming program. Miele does not have a thin solid stain less tray. A universal baking tray or a cookie tray can be used as drip tray, but they are thicker than stainless steel tray and absorb a bit more heat.

On the other hand, Miele has half size solid and perforated trays that are quite handy with smaller amount of food to be steamed. Miele also has a rack that allows you to use standard two 1/3 GN trays, one 1/2 GN tray, or one 2/3 GN tray. Wolf does not have any smaller size tray that fit to the rack.

Despite all the differences that tip me over to Miele for one combi oven to rule them all case, I think I would be as happy to have a Zug combi steam oven and a pyro oven combo. So for you kitchen girl, you probably will be happy with either Miele DGC 6805 and H 6880 BP combo or Wolf M-series (or E-series) combo.

Also have a look at vzugcombisteamqueen.com, steamcookinguk.net and felixhalter.com for some Zug specific sites to combi steam oven.

Chanop: Thanks SO much for your comparison of Miele and V Zug / Wolf combi-steam controls and functions! I REALLY appreciate it. I have begun reviewing all the links you provided, and I am learning a lot more this way. I really do not have the right brain to compare systematically, deliberately, as many features and differences as appliances have these days when at a showroom — embarrassing to say, but true. Yet, I don't want to just give up and buy a simpler appliance. All your comments and suggestions really help define the differences.

"For convection steam, Wolf does not seems t have any user control for humidity level. Perhaps, it is programmed to be temperature dependent or something along that line. For Miele, you can control humidity from 0 - 100% (not sure what unit is for %) in 5% incremental.'

This point -- something I read before on Gardenweb Appliances -- is one of my key concerns for the Wolf model; I will try to contact Wolf to see what they think about this. I'm not sure how important it is when using the combi function.

Does the Wolf steam reduction button potentially benefit when there is no humidity control for convection steam??

'FWIW, Zug models that I looked at were of newer 2015 bunch which had colour TFT display and a bigger control knob. Wolf models are similar to the previous Zug generation which uses text display.'

I've wondered about the little knob on the Wolf control panel, as it doesn't seem very ergonomic… I bet Wolf will be changing to the new version in 2016 sometime… AFTER I purchase!

Oops, I think that's my mistake thinking that Wolf has a steam reduction button. It appears to be a V-Zug combi steam xslf's feature, specific to fixed water connection model.

Such feature is very useful when you are cooking multiple food in steam mode where each one takes different amount of time. The one taking the longest time goes in first, then other foods later. Without steam reduction, you get facial pamper from the oven every time, for which it could be a feature.

For fine grain humidity control, it helps controlling browning and many other things. I am still learning and experimenting with the feature. Most, if not all, commercial combi ovens can control humidity level in combi mode. As far as I know, Miele has the most finely grained user control over humidity level compared with the rest of domestic units.

Wow--what a comparison of models! I just submitted my cabinet designs, and Monday is my last day to make any changes. I'm wondering if I will be happy with a CSO or if I should just go with double ovens. I like the versatility of steaming and I figure it will add a new dimension to how I cook. I may even take up baking!

I selected the Wolf combi along with the M-Series transitional 30" dual convection oven. I like the Miele CSO--it has a few more features than the Wolf, and Miele is one of the most reliable brands in the industry with the fewest repairs. I was concerned about the crazing of the Wolf. I've decided to take my chances. I would not compare Electrolux to Meile or Wolf. I'd put them in the GE category, which I wouldn't purchase.

What I like most that Miele has and Wolf doesn't is the broiler. But I figure I can finish anything I might steam then want broiled in the large oven or the grill top. Plus, clean-up with a broiler will be greater. Plumbed would be easier, but I don't think it is a big deal. A drain would be nice, but there is a drip tray and the steam may help with cleaning the oven. Those ovens were much pricier and never having used a CSO, I couldn't justify the extra cost considering I've never used a steam oven!

The biggest reason I decided to go with the Wolf CSO over the Miele is that I was purchasing many other Wolf/Subzero items including the 48" gas range top with the infrared grill, and SZ 36" freezer and refrigerator. I like the look of the Miele but not next to the stainless SZ and I didn't have one more inch to go with paneled refrigeration, and it was slightly more expensive. I didn't like the integrated Miele refrigeration--it is very high with the compressor on the bottom. I, too, am only 5'1". I like that the CSO will heat more quickly than the 30" large oven, and while the Wolf/SZ promotion isn't anything great, I will also get a 24" counter top oven if I need a second electric oven plus other appliances/cookware. We will have a microwave drawer, but I generally dislike anything reheated in the microwave, so I look forward to reheating using the steam oven instead of a microwave. I often re-heat in the toaster oven now over the microwave. I'll just have to learn how to keep it clean! My appliance dealer tells me many manufacturers are introducing steam to their regular ovens. It may be great for baking, but it won't offer all the CSO will and it will still take longer to heat up than the smaller oven which still holds quite a bit. If steaming is extremely important, the Gagg or Miele may be better options, but I think I'll be perfectly happy with the mid-priced Wolf.

I would not compare Electrolux to Meile or Wolf. I'd put them in the GE category, which I wouldn't purchase.

Could you elaborate on this?

Hi, I personally didn't care for the way the racks slid in either the GE monogram oven or the Electrolux Wave Touch compared to the Wolf and Miele. I have heard mixed reliability on the Electrolux appliances, not speaking directly to the ovens, but the brand. The service manager at our appliance shop which also services appliances was disappointed with an entire kitchen of Electrolux appliances--and this was coming from the owner--and I did not get the impression he was trying to sell me Wolf. He said if he were to buy a full size W/D, he would buy Electrolux, but he had a small size Asko due to his space limitations in his historic home. Looking at a GE range top, the metal grates were thin and one was cracked. While I'm planning on purchasing Electrolux W/Ds, the Electrolux ovens and even refrigerators were not comparable to me to a the integrated/built-in Wolf or Miele. Wolf generally prides itself on service, as does Miele, which has one of the best service records, but Electrolux seems to have more of a mixed service record and I was unimpressed by GE.

I also preferred the look of the M-series Wolf (the Transitional--I'm not a fan of the Professional model with the red plastic red knobs that don't match the range knobs, which I'm ordering in stainless.) I'm not saying the Electrolux ovens are not good, I just don't think they quite comparable to the Wolf or Miele, but I've read on Houzz many who have been happy with them. But the overall look and general quality were not as good a match for me with all of the other appliances I was planning. I did seriously consider the 32" fridge and freezer since most refrigeration issues had to do with the ice makers, but again, compared to Wolf/SZ, we were comparing apples to oranges.

Agreed I would never buy a full kitchen of Electrolux. Actually I would never buy a full kitchen of any brand, that's just asking for trouble. But their ovens are great. I did notice that the glide racks worked a bit differently in their new series. The porcelain was different as well. When I saw the new racks in person they seemed a bit harder to slide than the previous generation (which I own). Overall I liked the fit and finish of the previous Electrolux models better - though I would still buy again. The new ones do have porcelain coated racks that can stay in during self clean which the old ones didn't - that's probably what led to the difficulty in sliding. GE has the self cleaning racks as well, which is why you most likely noticed the same with them.

Having been on this forum a while I admit to being a bit biased - there are several happy Electrolux owners here, and that was a huge factor in getting mine. One longtime poster here has had no trouble with his for almost 10 years. Another has owned both Electrolux and Wolf ovens for a while, the Electrolux still works great, the Wolf is now unusable (but preferred the way the Electrolux functioned even when they both worked). Wolf service was very unhelpful with this extremely expensive product that didn't even last 5 years. Someone else (not on this forum) went through 6 defective Wolf blue porcelain ranges in less than 10 years, and then after the sixth Wolf would do nothing. They are now in the midst of litigation.

Yes both of those experiences were due to the blue chipping, which you most likely won't have to worry about on the M series (they redesigned the cavity). I'm not trying to make you worried or steer you away from Wolf (I would probably choose them over Miele myself). Just trying to point out that they may have the price tag and reputation, but that does not mean the service will be perfect.

What I've found to matter most is what kind of local service you have. Will your dealer go to bat for you if you have a problem? Do you have a skilled repair service in town you trust, either associated with your dealer or separate?

JK: Thanks for participating here. Interesting that your Wolf combi-steam price is less than Miele's (did I understand you correctly?) Here, the ovens -- combi-steam and 30" wall oven -- M and M-Touch -- are essentially the same prices brand to brand.

Hi kitchengirl, yes, the Wolf was a couple of hundred dollars less than the Miele in our store, but generally they were comparable--not a deal breaker. I really like the Miele and if it would have matched better with our SZ fridge and freezer, I would have strongly considered it since the CSO has the broiler and the oven has a rotisserie option. Factoring in the extra cost of the Miele and the Wolf/SZ promotions, I didn't see spending the extra for a look that wouldn't be as seamless when I think I'll be equally happy with the Wolf/SZ. I still decided on Bosch DWs vs. Wolf (made by Asko) and we are going with True beverage center and ice maker.

Hi hvtech42,

You bring up very good points.....racks that can stay in for self cleaning is a nice feature. I liked the overall look of the Wolf for our space better than the curvier handles on the Electrolux. The Wolf is fully integrated where the Electrolux and Thermador are not. I read many of the posts about problems people have had with Wolf. I am not minimizing their issues in any way. I'd be furious if the solution offered was to replace a defective product with 6 of the same defective product. Service was a definite factor in our decision. I went to our local Wolf dealer showroom and I've worked with two retailers, who are also authorized Wolf services. I feel as though this known problem with crazing has been addressed, especially since I'm planning the new M-Series. And I have been very happy with our retailer and I absolutely feel they would go to bat for us if we have any issues.

And I have been very happy with our retailer and I absolutely feel they would go to bat for us if we have any issues.

Great! You should be good to go then.

For pyrolytic oven, Miele M-touch has their side rail, wire rack, as well as telescopic runner pyro-compatible, so that they can be left inside the oven during self cleaning.

I was looking though some catalogues last night and just found that BSH has released a new combi oven in three different brands: Siemens iq700, Bosch series 8, and Neff 2015 collection. It is large in capacity 47l, has broiler element, uses steam injection to feed in steam. Water tank is also behind lifted up fascia, like Miele. However, it still seems to be that only Miele non-plumb model has a waste drain line and a waste drain tank. Oven interior is specially treated for ease of cleaning and is recommended against using oven cleaner.

These are available in the UK already, and are just out in Australia.

I bet we'll have them in North America by 2020...

I would seriously look at Bosch for ovens (and perhaps induction cooktop) if the U.S. model had the redesigned combi oven, Chanop. (Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, hvtech, 2018, perhaps ;-}

While I'm leaning toward Wolf for the combi + wall oven, I had better check seriously into Wolf service here, as I did with Miele. I assumed it would be fine, but I am an hour from the retailer.

J K, I loved the truffle brown in the Miele, and even though it was sleeker than models with stainless steel (and I am trying not to go too contemporary in this kitchen), I thought it would blend with my dark walnut cabinets and be wonderfully easy to keep free of fingerprints. But I've become worried that the Miele combi oven with broiler just adds complexity in cleaning (its manual is very intimidating on the cleaning routine, including the screens to protect the fan and drain that need removal and washing). The broiler is very useful if it is your only oven, but perhaps more a daily negative for the rare days that it is really needed (if one has a grill or broiler in a second self-clean oven, for example). But I have not signed off on a decision yet!

It is so tough to decide! And once the decision is made and all are installed, you probably won't think about it again and you will love whatever you chose! I don't think stainless will ever look too contemporary. The style of your kitchen will be most defined by the cabinetry. But the Miele with its very square handles and profile leans a bit more modern than Wolf, which has a Transitional or Professional option. I selected the Transitional as I found the controls simpler than the Professional where one first has to turn a knob and then use the electronic menus. The Transitional has a thinner handle and is entirely electronic. While I have a sizable kitchen, the Professional with its large handles may be more suited to a larger kitchen, where the Transitional handles seem a bit more refined. As far as cleaning, I think Miele would be more difficult with the broiler. But either is manual and anything hitting the coil will burn off. Personally, I'd love to go from steaming to broiling to finish, but I can just as easily lower the item into the self-cleaning oven below! :-) Best of luck to you! I will post back after I install and use it. My next door neighbor installed a Wolf CSO months ago and they still haven't used it yet!

@kitchengirl, daily routine with Miele combi is generally is fairly simple. It varies a bit depending on what has been cooking. Basically, if food does not splat too much, it takes a few quick wipe to get it cleaned. A soak program will help loosening up those greasy bits from splattering and make wiping a bit easier.

Grease filter is only required when roasting or baking food with a fair amount of oil or fat. For steaming, bread baking, pastry baking etc, it is not required. Grease filter is also dishwasher safe, so it is not a pain to clean.

Drain filter takes a few seconds to rinse, wiped and put back into place. It does not have any kind of lock, just have to be put back into place over the drain hole.

Speaking of drain, it is quite useful as excess condensation is drained to the waste tank, and save some manual mopping time. There is also a rinse function that should be operated at least daily if steaming of combi program is used. I only run the rinse program at the end of the day, and often followed by drying program instead of mopping by hand, and leaving the oven door ajar.

We often talk about Miele combi as having extra broiler compared with Wolf combi. In fact, it is both top and bottom heating element besides the broiler. Broiler and top heating element is one and the same, but operates at different wattage. Wolf is a pure convection oven only. Miele combi can operates in pure convection as well as in traditional top and bottom heat.

There are a few recipes that will call for bottom heat only, top heat only, or both. For some food, having the ability to add humidity to convectional heat is a plus. There are quite a number of recipes in Miele DGC 6000 XL cookbook written for combi mode with conventional heat.

If I had a pyro oven in addition to a combi, I probably would still roast and grill most of meat in the pyro oven.

Hi Chanop, Thank you very much for clarifying about the upper and lower element in the Miele vs. no upper NOR LOWER element (correct?) in the Wolf, which only has an element around the convection fan. I recognize I have missed some basic differences between these two models!

Do you consider conventional heat to be both lower and upper element on? In a lot of ovens, only the lower element is on during conventional bake (I think).

When do you think conventional heat + steam is preferable to pure convection + steam?

Do you know why Wolf's combi doesn't need a grease screen in front of the convection opening?

In one of the V Zug videos, the chef roasted a large turkey and while the skin browned nicely, it wasn't evenly browned but splotchy, which is perhaps limited by pure convection's air flow?

When I asked Miele and Wolf staff about roasting meat in the combi vs. a convection wall oven, their answers were that they both worked well, but the juice/moisture retention in the combi-steam oven made the meat particularly good.

I'm rather surprised at the difference in the cleaning/maintenance between the two combi-steam ovens… We did have a sleeve installed in the concrete subfloor to allow a drain line, so I at least could opt for the Miele plumbed unit; I think that would eliminate emptying a waste water container, at least.

The grease filter by the convection fan is just a Miele "hallmark" in all their ovens. Something to distinguish them from the competition. Not many other brands have it. It has been debated in the past whether it is useful or just a gimmick.

Convection is the best mode to use for roasting turkey, not sure what happened in that video.

If I were using the combi as my only oven, it would be very important for me to have upper and lower elements in addition to the convection element. Obviously this allows broiling, and it also is great for your general baking needs when you don't need or want convection. If I had a separate conventional oven that did those things, I would not really care about missing them in the combi. Conventional bake on most modern electric ovens is mostly bottom heat with a little bit of top heat thrown in. Not sure about the Miele combi. I can see the steam with conventional bake combination possibly being nice for bread baking. That said, I still wouldn't really care about missing the top and bottom elements, because people turn out delicious bread all the time with pure convection + steam. Also if I had the full sized Miele oven with the moisture plus feature - that would probably be my go to oven for bread.

hvtech: for roasting a turkey, pure convection w/o bottom (nor top) elements is best?

Thanks for commenting on Miele's grease filter. I don't remember seeing it at the showroom in the 30" wall oven, but I don't doubt that it was there (as I mentioned, I am seeing all the details I missed in these latest conversations after I visited dedicated showrooms).

Re. the Miele ovens and bread-baking, I do remember the rep saying that she preferred bread baking in the wall oven (Moisture Plus in M-Touch) over the combi-steam, which surprised me.

Re. sizing up utility of the combi-steam oven in general: it comes down to how much you are trying to duplicate features in your convex. wall oven and your combi-steam ovens, as it is your second oven in lieu of another convex. wall oven… That's why I started out with the idea that the Miele was a better choice than the Wolf, simply b/c I thought it had a "broiling element" and therefore covered all my bases. So push come to shove, I could do the same cooking in either oven, if I was doing a lot of items for a party, for ex. Hmm, got to figure this out!

Thanks very much for your excellent points.

My bad, I think Miele got rid of the filter in their big ovens when they switched to dual fans on the latest version. But it is something they have done for many years.

What I would use for roasting depends on the particular oven I'm using and what modes it has. If there were a "convection roast" option I would use that. That usually gives a higher fan speed and focuses the heat more from the top. If there weren't a specific roasting option, I would use the pure convection mode and expect great results as well. My point is I highly doubt convection was to blame for whatever issues they were having in that video.

Conventional heat in Miele term is for both top and bottom element on. I think the term is quite common for European ovens.

For Miele, there are three combi modes where you can set humidity level:

• Fan plus or convection heat from heating element from the back
• Conventional heat or Top and Bottom heating element
• Grill or the broiler element operated in such manner

There are more heating modes in Miele, such as

• Top heat
• Bottom heat
• Bottom heat plus convection
• Grill plus convection
• Economy grill

Although there is no combi modes for these, but there is a button "Manual burst of steam" available which will inject steam for one minute at a time.

Some food may behaves better without air being moved around during the cooking. Looking though recipes in this Miele cookbook, page 442-451, a number of pastry and bread recipes call for combi conventional heat as well as many meat roasting recipes.

Despite saying that, Miele ladies (home economist working for Miele) always say that you can convert many recipes calling for conventional heat to fan plus by subtracting 20*c (36*F) off as air circulation promotes additional heat transfer.

Miele normal oven can go up to 300*c while it is only 225*c in a combi. Perhaps the higher heat capability is what the rep prefer for bread baking in a normal oven.

Whether you want a combi to be able to do most of the tasks of a convection oven in smaller capacity or not probably will depends on how you cook. I still think that if most of the cook can fit inside a combi, it would be handy to have the extra top and bottom heating element capabitliy.

Grease filter in Miele combi seems to be quite a niche feature for protecting element at the back. It is not unique as I recal that Neff has a grease filter as well for its combi.

Chanop, you are a tremendous resource -- I really appreciate it!! I am taking a short break from my oven decision, as I am REALLY at an impasse. Every time I think I've made up my mind, I read something that causes me to reconsider (often something you've said!). I've been leaning toward Wolf for the CS oven + the M-series wall oven -- b/c it is an easier/safer(?) choice -- but technically, the Miele seems to have advantages. I will return here when I have a fresh question or think I've made up my mind.

Thanks to everyone who has participated here so far!!

Hi kitchengirl, I completely understand how you feel. This decision is so tough--because I haven't even used a steam oven before! I perseverated over my decision until the last minute. I just placed my cabinet order and I would have to make any changes by yesterday. I'm still wondering how I'll really use my steam oven!

Just remember, they are only ovens. You will likely not be unhappy with either. If you like the look of the Miele, they seem to have more features. If adjusting steam and more conventional cooking with heating elements is really important to you in the CSO, and you aren't worried about cleaning around those elements, Miele CSO seems to offer more versatility. (Also has the drain, adjustable steam, etc.) The question is whether it will significantly impact how you cook.

Either convection oven will be nice. I like that Miele has a rotisserie option. Otherwise, you probably won't notice much difference. You will learn the controls in either,

As far as service, Miele is one of the most reliable and least serviced brands and it sounds like service for either Miele or Wolf would be available to you if you had any problems. The key is often the relationship you have with your dealer to step in if needed.

My decision was a trade off for aesthetics and consistency over features that I didn't think would make much of a difference for me. If I want to broil after steaming, I can put the item in the broiler in the self-cleaning oven directly below for a short time. I didn't feel like the steam adjustability would matter much and there will be some manual cleaning involved with either.

I'm not even sure how much I'll use all of the programs in the gourmet mode. But I think it will be fun to try. One thing I found helpful in making my decision was looking at steam oven recipes from both Miele and Wolf to see how I could use the steam oven. Attending a class at a distributor could be helpful too--I just couldn't work it into my schedule. I found that there is often a combination of cooking methods or ability to cook the same recipes using different methods. Here are some links that might be helpful.....Best of luck to you!

Subzero Steam Oven Recipes

Miele Recipes (use filters to select cooking product, meal type, etc.)

Hi JK, thanks very much for your comments and the links provided. I downloaded the Subzero online cookbook, but have not looked at any Miele recipes, so comparing will be instructive.

I agree that in the end, I am sure I will be happy with my choice. I just need to decide between what I believe will be "easier": Wolf or "more feature rich": Miele. I am fairly hung-up on the cleaning/maintenance/simplicity issue.

Reliability is something I have not really weighed, which I should more seriously consider.

I also need to look at the dimensions of the Wolf indux cooktop to see if it would be easy to swap out 10 years from now if it goes kaput. I would hate to be faced with replacing an entire wall of countertop on top of a major appliance failure.

On the 30" wall oven, I like the Miele's Moisture Plus feature that Wolf doesn't offer. Oddly, Miele recommended using the wall oven for bread over their CS oven, saying it was more even (but I do not know if they have experimented with every mode in the CSO to compare with their wall oven). I grew up with rotisserie chicken every other week or more often in our GE wall ovens, and the cleanup of that d**n setup was memorably unpleasant (catsup, soy sauce, Worcestershire, hoisin, oil) ... So I have no interest in that ;-}

I may drive the half-day to attend a workshop at Miele and Wolf… time-consuming, and I thought I could jam it into my last trip, but it was just too rushed. Really handling the appliances would surely help.

I also debated between the Wolf versus Miele CSO. I ended up with the Miele as I liked their broiler option, the Purline profile, and I also was interested in the moisture plus for bread for my 30" oven. I also went with their speed oven as I had a hard time devoting an oven just for a microwave. Wolf did not have a good microwave option and I did not want a drawer version. Since my ovens are next to each other I preferred to stay with one vendor for the look. So far I love the CSO - very easy to use - I am trying at the advice of a Miele tech their materchef modes and so far I have had good results. I like being able to adjust the % moisture in the "Combi" modes rather than try to remember what the various modes are like in the Wolf. I will say my CSO "died" in the steam related functions 5 days after move in and it took about 5 weeks to get it repaired as there is only one tech in my area. They replaced the all the steam components. About $500+ worth of repair under warranty. I do not do a lot of meat in my ovens (use the outside grill for that) so I cannot comment on clean up after roasting meat. I have done some bread (sour dough, buns, and baguettes) - not extensive yet but both have yielded good results. I am just starting to experiment. With my speed and cs - I rarely use the large oven as the other two heat up quickly, can hold almost all of my baking dishes, and both work as a conventional convection oven with CS having the added steam bonus.

kimg: Thanks very much for the input. Have you used the broiler in the CSO? If yes, what do you think?

I'm trying to decide how much different functionality I would get between the pure convex. of Wolf (no upper and lower elements, just the convex. element at back) vs. the Miele's 3 elements.

Re. meat on the grill outside: ha ha! We are in the upper Midwest now, so December through March or quite possibly April, that's definitely not an option.

I use the broiler weekly for roasting red peppers. Works great for that. Very fast on the max setting. We have also used the convection broil on the lower setting to "toast"/top brown bagels. That worked well but like anything else you have to keep you eye on them. I do not use a broiler for meats. I use my CSO just like my regular oven and use the steam features when it would be an advantage. Fortunately I am in Florida and grilling year round is a great benefit. I did my 16 years in the Mid West - my DH did grill outside in the winter as we had a somewhat protected grill under an upper deck just outside a sliding glass door.

Hi kimg1114, when you use the broiler features, are you using steam? (I'm in the great lakes region--grew up in FL!) I'm planning an infrared grill in my range top for the winter months!

J K, you can use the broiler with or with out steam. There are four modes with Miele broiler actually (if not counting top heat)

• Full grill
• Economy grill, where only the inner element is activated
• Fan grill, with convection fan to circulate the heat
• Combi grill, with humidity control

For the first three modes, steam can still be injected manually with "Manual burst of steam" button.

Combi grill mode is excellent for grilling fish.

Just curious- what are you cooking that you would use steam and the broiler?

That's a good question, wekick. Miele recipe book for combi steam oven does not have any recipe that use full grill with moisture, however, there are recipes that use combi mode full grill with 0% moisture.

From Miele demonstrator's word when I took their cooking classes, she said that by default Miele oven retains some moisture during cooking. For the plain oven, there is a crisp function to release moisture which is done by opening up valve. This is akin to Wolf convection and convection humid mode in their CSO. For Miele combi, you have the option of setting moisture level to 0% to force the oven to release all the moisture possible.

Despite there is no recipe in the book using grill with some moisture, the advertisement in Miele catalogue does claim that it is good for fish and meat.

My self, I have got a pretty good result with white fish marinaded in sweet miso (saikyo miso fish) cooked in full grill combi mode with some moisture. It is cooked skin side up towards to grill. With preheated grill, and some humidity. outside is brown fairly quickly, and pretty much when the marinade starts to burn due to high sugar content, cooking is done.

Sounds delicious!

"...she said that by default Miele oven retains some moisture during cooking. For the plain oven, there is a crisp function to release moisture which is done by opening up valve. This is akin to Wolf convection and convection humid mode in their CSO. For Miele combi, you have the option of setting moisture level to 0% to force the oven to release all the moisture possible."

Hi Chanop, when you say "plain oven," do you mean using upper and bottom element without specifically setting a steam level?

And when you say, "you have the option of setting moisture level to 0% to force the oven to release all the moisture possible." do you mean it will expel residual moisture in the ducts/valves and close the connection from the water line/canister to get to 0% during the cooking??

Thanks very much for continuing to define the differences between the Miele and Wolf CSO.

Hi kitchen girl, I meant Miele normal convection ovens for "plain oven" comment above. Their top of the line models have this "crisp function" e.g. H 6880 BP. The functionality is described here on Miele UK. I believe it is done the same way as V-Zug ovens where a value is open and air let out through the vent to achieve driest possible oven cavity.

At Winning Appliances where I went for the Zug demo, they have a Zug oven installed with glass top and sits on a runner where we can see this value opening and closing for different cooking modes (hot air vs hot air humid)

For Miele combi, it already has humidity control system, so apart from not injecting any steam into the cavity when moisture is too high from a set point, it will also try to reduce moisture by releasing it out through the exhaust vent.

Also note that for Miele 0% - 100% moisture level, I am not quite sure what the scale is, suspecting that it probably is somewhere along the line of ambient air level for 0% to 100% relative humidity measured on hygrometer for 100%. Anyone who has knowledge of this can chime in.

I was driving past Winning with my little boy today, so here it is a picture of V-Zug oven vent for its hot air humid vs hot air mode. You can see that the new V-Zug oven has bigger knob compared with previous generation (as well as Wolf CSO), the handle is also a hidden handle that only pops out when the oven is turned on. I was told it is this vent at the top which closes down in hot air humid mode to keep moisture in, and opens up in hot air mode to release moisture out.

Hi Chanop, Thanks for the clarification.

Interesting to see into the top of the V-Zug and look at its vent. Wish Wolf had the bigger knob here (already). Thanks for the neat photos!