So many wise words on this thread. I read this the other day, and it resonated loudly.... "In every marriage more than a week old, there are grounds for divorce. The trick is to find, and to continue to find, grounds for marriage." (Robert Anderson).

I was in a great relationship with my best friend for over 10 years. I loved his family and everything seemed perfect. There were a few issues that I knew needed to be settled if we were going to get married and we never talked about them because it was painful for us and I never saw any way to resolve them without someone being resentful. Finally it came to the point where everyone kept asking when we were going to be married. We loved each other very much but I would have to compromise on these issues if we were going to stay together. He was not going to compromise so we parted. I miss him every day. Nothing will replace everything we had or how we talked. Nothing even comes close. But I could not go on when he wanted something I know I did not want or ever would. And 15 years later I still don't. I know his new wife doesn't have the great chemistry with him that I had but she was willing to say ok when I wouldn't.

I miss his folks, our friends ( they turned away from me when we parted) everything we used to do together. I know what it's like having a close bond like that and losing it. It hurts. He didn't want to be friends after. He felt hurt and upset that I wouldn't compromise. If you can get your best friend back you should try. I never got married. Nothing ever seemed to compare with what I lost.

Lisa, I'm glad you posted and update and I just want to commend each and every one of you who has posted here. This thread is one of the best examples of the best internet forums have to offer, It's so nice to see after reading some of the worst on another forum.

Lisa, I think you are off to a good start and wish you the best. I don't have much to add, but did have the thought that you and your DH can have intimacy without sex. That may not be what you are talking about or wanting, but if you give yourselves permission to be okay with that, it may help your relationship -- and with the pressure off, maybe it will lead to more.

In addition to saying positive things to your DH each day, do the same for yourself. If you battle depression, it may do you good to remind yourself of good things you have done or at least say thanks for good things that have happened each day. Take 5 minutes at the end of each day -- or make it immediate and say thank you when the light stays green as you are driving somewhere, say thanks for the good parking space that just opened up or getting to see an adorable kid (your own or not) who makes you smile, puppy kisses that make you laugh -- anything that strikes you as the good and positive side of life. Embrace it and give thanks for it. May not change anything that happens down the road, but maybe it will. You'll never know, but you will probably be happier either way. Again, all the best to you.

kittymoonbeam, that is very sad.

I'm doing my best these days to try and stop comparing and rather accepting each and everything for what it is and seeking the best in all of it. E.g., nothing will ever again match the closeness Mom and I shared, but that doesn't mean I don't have a lot to give and gain by being close with my old friends and making new ones. If I keep seeking the exact same relationship, I will never find it and will be unhappy.

Mom always wore a necklace with a seagull on it...I never knew why. After she died, it made sense as I found a lovely poem she'd written...about a little girl trying to catch sea gulls on the beach and being completely oblivious to all the beauty of the sun and sand and water and wonderful things around her that she already had, if she'd only opened her eyes to them. I may not have my Mom any more, but I can still enjoy the sun and the sand and the waves and the water.

kittymoonbeam- I'm assuming you are referring to having children?

It is sad, I'm sorry it took 10 years to get to that point. It seems to be one of the few topics where there really isn't a compromise.

I hope you have found joy and contentment since then.

I wasn't going to post so as to avoid bumping this up again for my own sake, but since Texas Gem just posted (thank you!), I'll add another round of appreciation to everyone for sharing your continued words of experience and suggestions. I keep reading this whole thread over and over, and the gems of wisdom are so worthwhile.

It's only been a few days since the "hopeful" talk with my husband, so no major updates to report. But I think that's the point since what I'm noticing are the little day to day changes between us. No commitment to counseling on his part yet and no throes of passion igniting fireworks. But there's been a lot of little changes that only he and I would notice. I have to say I'm getting so much more comfort from these little changes than I would have expected.

In addition, Texas Gem, what you described about accepting our partners, and in turn liking ourselves, is a big deal for me (lascatx refers to this, too). Not being so hard on ourselves begets the same in our attitude of others.

I've gained something from every post here.

Last night as I started reading your first post, tears welled up in my eyes. Im so sorry you are going through this.

The only words of wisdom I'll pass on is what I tell every bride and groom. Something my hubby was wise enough to realize before we married and we promised each other. The ladies here have heard it before, and you may have too since you admitted you are a long time luker. But here goes just in case you haven't.

Don't ever assume the other knows what you are feeling or thinking. Humans cannot really read minds. Though at times we can guess what someone we know well is thinking, we never truly know unless we ask or they just tell us. I suggest you make a promise to each other, if you haven't already, to tell each other when something the other does or doesn't say or do that hurts you. Blaming the other for something they don't realize, only pushes you apart. Communication brings you together.

This has worked for my hubby and myself for over 35 years, and we only knew each other 3 months and 8 days when we married. Had it not been for this promise we may have not made it past our first year in which he lost his job and later we lost or first baby to still birth.

I must add that we also share a strong Christian faith, so there is no conflict there.

With that said, I have been praying for your family and will continue to do so.

Words of wisdom, justgotabme,

Lisa- I hope my words gave you comfort.

Try to remember, you didn't go from blissfully in love to miserable overnight.

It was a slow change, it happened over time as BOTH of you were concentrated on kids, careers, etc. and your relationship got moved to the back burner.

So many of us go through life expecting love and a happy marriage to just work but it never does. It is the most important relationship we will ever have in our lives and as such, it takes more WORK than any other relationship.

It will take as much time to undo the wall of resentment as it took to build.

Think about it. As a grown adult, if one of your parents said or did something that rubbed you the wrong way, you could simply avoid speaking to them, or at the very least avoid speaking to them about that specific topic for a few weeks. Enough time that you (and they) could calm down and approach it in a logical, rational way.

That doesn't work in a marriage though. You can't just avoid them for weeks on end, I mean you can try but it will only result in failure.

You are roommates, but NOT just roommates, you are lovers BUT not just lovers, you are partners BUT not just partners.

EVERY disagreement must be dealt with. Unlike other relationships where you can ignore it and sweep it under the rug, that doesn't work for marriage.

Everything swept under the rug will just come back out when you do your deep spring cleaning.

I sincerely hope that, over time, you and your husband are able to find a way back to each other.

You fell in love with each other once, there is no reason you can't do it again.

I asked a marriage counselor about this and she said give it your all before you decide to give up. Then, no regrets later on but don't live a half life for ten years because life is too short to be unhappy for so long and your kids need you and not a shadow of you.

Our pastor spoke tonight of how we all tend to fill silences with information that we draw from our own continual feed, and how often that feed is wrong.

(He didn't respond quickly to my text? He's cheating. He didn't call when he always does? He's dead in a ditch.)

Our minds lead us to so many assumptions that are false. This just came back to me as I read what justgotabme said about effecting good communication instead of expecting your partner to read your mind. In that same vein, be mindful of the assumptions being made regarding your partner's behavior or intent, particularly in times of silence.

I'm so glad you checked in here, and so happy to know that you are experiencing some small victories. Small ones count every bit as much as the big ones do. Please keep talking to us. We care about you, and yes, many of us lift you and your husband up in prayer.

Very true Jen. You have a wise Pastor. I believe those thoughts are from Satin.

Yes I need to make a 100% effort here. It's too easy to fall back into my old habits and too easy to forget the new ones I want to make. Already I've missed a few days of complimenting him 3x (mainly because he was traveling for work, but how hard is it to text a compliment?). This might seem trivial but when I don't do this I tend to overlook what I like about him. I was surprised at how this little change shifted my view of him and I need to get back on it.

I'm slow to change. And I secretly like when he's traveling for work because it gives me somewhat of a break from us. And while I do not want to be a single parent, at times I can see myself as a single empty nester.

Sunday confessions here. Reading through this thread for inspiration to remind me to get up off my arse and keep working at it 100%.

Another idea with the compliments is giving them in front of others. This morning I posted on FB a sweet thing DH did for me. We are big cereal eaters and we only had enough milk for one bowl. DH who gets up 1st, left it for me. He was a little embarrassed I posted it on FB but I like to let others know I have a wonderful husband.

I think most of us like a break once in awhile no matter how happily married we are.

Oy.

Glad you are trying to work things out but it sounds as though you are trying harder than he is, and some of the advice given here sounds like it was written in the 1950s.

I'm pragmatic, and in your place I would still see a divorce lawyer and get some pre-planning in place.

I'd say that could be a good thing kswl, because the divorce rate has more than double since the 1950's. Too many have become apathetic about what marriage should be these days. I find that very sad. It's not suppose to be easy. Just because my marriage is good doesn't mean it's easy. It's good because we care about it being good for the each other. We take time to flirt, blow kisses across the room or send virtual hugs and kisses via Skype when hubby is away. We chose to have fun with it and were blessed in that we both feel the same way about it working out. But even at that, it's not always easy especially when so many have told us they want a marriage like ours and they happen to be around when we want to wring each others necks. LOL But when we feel that way, we talk, we joke and we remember how much we love each other.

I would agree with kswl, if I thought things had deteriorated that badly. But that's not what I'm hearing. I'm hearing that you and your best friend have been under stress from many forces and that you are both open to finding a way back to each other. It's not like someone is getting beaten or emotionally abused or running through all the money with an addiction problem, and the situation is untenable, or that someone is seriously involved with someone else and wants to move on.

If you go kswl's route, then it may force you to take actions for which you aren't really ready...and can throw a huge trust issue into the relationship. (If I found out DH went to a lawyer and was socking money away in anticipation of a potential divorce, you'd better believe it would throw a permanent monkey wrench in the marriage!)

I remember reading a long time ago that the secret to keeping a marriage going is to not consider divorce. If you spend your marriage constantly asking yourself, is this it? Is this the break up? Are we coming to an end? Is it over? Eventually you will answer yes.

I have looked back at some, not all, of the posts, so maybe I missed something, but I don't remember anything I think should have stayed in the 50s -- and I'd be fairly sensitive to that. I was very independent and told my mom it was a good thing she married my dad and not me. Anyway, what I see is make sure to communicate rather than work on assumptions. Even making a point to compliment (if genuine) is consistent with that. We get so busy and take things for granted. Sometimes we need to be bumped back to the same page. . No one has said kowtow or be subservient.

It does sound like he may be making less of an effort, but it also sounds like he is a bit depressed -- probably having a hard time dealing with his physical changes and the taken for granted relationship would make that worse. Nothing wrong with letting your spouse know you care more about them as a whole person.

I think all opinions expressed here have at least some merit, but I think the 1950s might have been brought to mind with the advice that the OP spruce up her personal appearance -- being fashionable, wearing makeup, high heels, etc. It sort of rubbed me the wrong way too. At least nobody suggested she greet him at the door wearing Saran Wrap and a come-hither smile.

I think most of us realize that once you get past a certain point (and it usually happens pretty early on in a relationship), it's not the physical attributes that motivate us to keep loving one another.

Appearance is not who we are though, and success is not measured by one's hairstyle or the clothes they wear. That's an extremely limited (and I'll just say it - shallow) view of marriage, but one that many of us have been exposed to at some point in our lives, and one that many of us (raising my own hand) have bought into at some point in our lives. Appearance matters only to an extent, and the older you get, when you see your youthful looks fading, you start to realize it's an extremely tiny portion of the overall picture of a person. Appearance's importance fades just as that youthful glow does.

Kindness, compassion, forgiveness, appreciation, empathy, humor, determination, honesty, commitment, intentional living ... these are some of the things that matter.

Just my $.02.

OK. I give up.

;-)

EDIT: No, wait. I clicked your link and read, and no - I don't give up. Have you actually read the article that you posted? Do you truly agree with assertions such as this?

A physically attractive person attracts a lot of people.It helps in building up relationships. A handsome boy attracts a lot of girls. Similarly, even girls, who are beautiful, are much sought after.

Physical appearance does matter in a relationship. In a marriage, the partners need to take care of themselves physically in order to sustain their relationship. Many women face marital problems as they go out of shape after having children. Those women who take care of their physical appearance have better rapport with their partner.

What a bunch of unadulterated baloney.

Did you WRITE the article?

Many women face marital problems as they go out of shape after having children.

Such sound advice. How come these women are not up on the treadmill the day after giving birth? They totally deserve their husbands to leave them or at the very least cheat on them. And what if they got cancer and lost their hair or something- definite grounds for divorce!

Plus, we all know how middle aged men are very well known for maintaining their six pack abs and full head of hair.

And teeth, Beagles, don't forget the teeth!

Is that link click bait? Maybe spam? Poor grammar/spelling makes it suspicious. I won't look at the link and after Jen's review, I suggest no one click on it and reward that poster with any hits.

Yes, that was not written by a native speaker, or at least not one who passed third grade. What a bunch of balderdash.

From his "about" page:

Who am I?
I am Amitabh Shukla from Hyderabad (India), spend 10-12 hours on web and very passionate about making good sites in terms of design, usability, enhancing user experience by use of latest technologies and Search Engine Optimization etc….

auntjen, I am not going back and rereading that post, but I remember it now. Yeah -- that was a bit much.

A little primp or polish might help the OP feel better for the moment -- and maybe that will help her deal with the changing situation with more confidence. If that post was intended to suggest anything more than that, well -- no. Thats not going to make any substantial change in a relationship that is about anything more than appeances.

And thanks -- I'm not clicking on the link.

Shocking!!! A man wrote about women needing to stay in shape in a marriage, but no mention about the men! ;)

FWIW- I do believe it is important to care about your appearance, but NOT for your partner. It is a sign of personal health, that you care about yourself. This doesn't need heels, make-up or maintaining the body of a model, just caring enough to shower, shave, wear clean clothes, etc.

I'm pretty sure it's the same guy who calls me twice a day about my "Windows machine."

I don't understand getting annoyed over someone's advise to take care of one's self and appearance! from the amount of money many, many, many people spend on fashion and makeup and hair care and dye and plastic surgery and fake boobs and botox and wrinkle creams and diets and gym memberships, etc etc I would think that would be popular advise!

I didn't click on the link and what was cut and pasted makes me cringe-- the grammar alone makes me cringe! but, I think most people are happier people when they feel good about themselves- and grooming and clothing can help us feel better about ourselves. I know I am a much happier person when I am busy doing things that are meaningful to me and when I am active and taking care of myself. when I am happy, everything and everybody else seems rosier! (it would probably be easier to give those 3 compliments every day too:) I remember noticing that all the time with my kids-- when I was happy, they were much happier!

I think it's good advise to try to find a/some fun things to get involved with that fulfill you-- apart from your kids and husband... maybe an activity a couple/few evenings a week to take the place of the alcohol. regular alcohol intake isn't helping anything-- and once you cut that out, you may find your sleep and outlook improves too...

That was obviously spam. No need to speculate. Beside, the OP already said she keeps up with her appearance so that's not an issue.

Lisa, I hope you find peace and happiness sooner rather than later.

Too bad we can't "down vote" posts on GardenWeb.

Texas Gem -- agreed as to generally taking care of yourself, but if it requires nail polish and high heels, I haven't been healthy in over 20 years. LOL Queen of the flats here (I'm 5 onches taller than DH and am so used to flats now that if he were gone, I'd still be limited to flats and low heels).

Ack. This has nothing to do with OP. Can't we just allow people (women especially) to present themselves in the way that is comfortable to them? You may want to do your hair, put on makeup, wear the current fashions, and try to look as young as you can for as long as you can but that is not everyone's goal/desire. Isn't that okay? I think it is.

I (and maybe some others?) reported that guy's post as spam. It appears to be gone now.

Roses, I think all but one of us probably agree. The pushback came on the suggestion (actual or apparent) that dolling up was the way to fix a marriage.

I had quickly read summerrhythm's (?) comments yesterday before they were removed.

Regardless I wanted to respond to you, if you are still reading, and explain the advice you provided was apparently written by an Indian male based on the blog link you provided. There are gender and cultural influences to his perspective that would not apply to my circumstances but thank you for your input.

For the record, summer, I am very fit, have curly sexy hair that I gladly keep in a style my husband likes (I like it too) and a fashion sense that he sincerely compliments. He tells me often that I look better today than the day we married and he means it. But that's all pretty trivial and meaningless if we are not on the same page mentally and emotionally, which we are not.

I also know my previous posts seem like I'm making all the effort... he's making changes too. I'm just noting the small changes I'm making because I at the point where it has to start with me. I do hope he agrees to counseling eventually because I think our good times/bad times might become cyclical if we don't make some more meaningful changes. There are some really foundational issues between us, such as how we give and accept feedback, that probably need a third party involved.

Oh and except for social occasions, I'm drinking herbal tea in the evenings. :-)

Don't get too down on yourself if you're not fulfilling all of your relationship goals. Change is hard especially when undoing what you might consider to be bad habits that have become the norm in your relationship. You're aware and making an effort and that's key.

Thanks for letting us know how it's going. For me and perhaps for others, your journey is helping me to remember to do some things in my own relationship that have fallen by the wayside as life as gotten in the way. No excuse, just happened.

Lisa, I keep wanting to say something to you along the lines of "I commend you", or "I admire the changes you're making" - but somehow it all comes back sounding hollow or patronizing to me. So I'll just say that I continue to wish you all the very best as you press on.

My DH and I have been in couples counseling for five months, and while we have made tremendous strides, there are still matters that arise daily that cause us to have to make a mindful, intentional choice as to how we are going to respond to one another. We are also continuing to peel back layers of who we are as individuals and how that relates to who we are as a couple during each counseling session. While we have made progress that I am proud of and encouraged by, that's not to say that we don't have our bad days from time to time. It's normal. We're human. I guess what I'm trying to say is that changing a marriage is a long process. It took years for us to get to the place where we are now, and it's just not rational to think that change will happen quickly, or that it will even be consistent from day to day. I do keep pressing on though, certain that the OVERALL results will be worth it.

I'm not sure people were all that well off in a time when the divorce rate was lower, lots of older people I know who grew up during that time speak of abusive and alcoholic parents, and many carry deep scars from that time that affect their marriages and ability to relate to and work with others. I think the boomers are a generation that wants more from life, they are less apt to be stoic than the former generation, which also has its good and bad sides. Some stoicism is good, but denying and ignoring problems can backfire. But working on them is no sure fix either. I think when folks here suggest working on your marriage, it is so that you can clarify whether or not your marriage can be saved. That's a better way to spend your time than spending eight years planning a divorce. A lot can happen in eight years and that seems like a bit of a waste. HOWEVER, I also agree that it isn't all on one partner to work on the marriage and just hope that the other person will be inspired or motivated by your noble efforts. Sometimes yes, a lot of times no. Maybe it is because I had been single for so long, but I don't expect my partner to be responsible for my happiness, nor am I responsible for his. As for personal appearance, he says I look great to him, no matter what, but we both realize that poor personal appearance (within reason) could be a reflection of poor health or depression. Luckily my partner supports my efforts to take good care of myself by eating right and exercising. This is so important during menopause since the time of life puts a lot of stresses on the body and it seems like I need more maintenance than ever now! Also, if you're staying together just for financial reasons, as a lot of women do, best to try and get yourself in a situation where you are financially independent. I know so many women in miserable dead end marriages who are slowly disintegrating as people because they can't or won't leave due to money. They don't have enough money to make it on their own. If so, if that's truly your situation, then you need to work on getting yourself clear of your husband financially. No reason you can't do that along with working on making your relationship better. They are not mutually exclusive.

Oh Pink, well said! What a wise, thoughtful response.

Lascatx, my post was a response to a comment that is now deleted without a trace. It recommended that a woman try harder with her appearance (makeup, high heels, coiffure) to keep her husband interested.

Got it. That was pointed out (i think it was auntjen) and I replied. I had skimed over that one and didn't remember it. Yeah, I was thinking they were suggesting a little TLC to feel better, more confident, but remembered there was more when jen mentioned the nail polish and high heels.

Kind of along kswl's post above, even if one does not see a divorce attorney, there are practical things that people often overlook that should be done anyway. Even if one's relationship is hunky-dory, both partners should have account numbers for all accounts, information on retirement accounts, etc. easily available to them. If there are changes, those need to be kept track of. Both partners should also be keeping tabs on where money is going, etc. All of this is incredibly important in the case of divorce but also necessary should one partner die unexpectedly, etc. I think it is easy to overlook during stressful times, but the cost of doing so can be very high. It is not romantic to think about, but it is an important reminder.

Along the same lines, from the practical/common sense standpoint, if one is considering the future of the marriage, don't muddy the waters with other things. For instance, now would not be the time to take on a major remodeling project, by an expensive car, or whatever. Some people think doing a project together will bring them closer, and it may, but alternatively it often drives people farther apart and costs a lot of money which would be significantly more useful in the starting of a new life.

One thing I do feel the need to say is that while some people may seek a divorce too quickly, staying married out of the respect for marriage, because it is a wonderful institution, etc. can be terrible. Marriage has the potential to be a wonderful thing, and like all wonderful things, has the potential to be a terrible prison. There was a time when marriage was really the safest place for a woman, but that is no longer the case. There was also a time that due to life expectancy, the length of a marriage to one person was not really all that long. One spouse was likely to die and the surviving spouse was likely to marry someone new.

I admit from a religious perspective it is something that I struggle with. My faith is important to me but I look at my aunt who is with a shmuck, whose drinking is worsening and the fact that she will likely never leave that situation and I have to wonder, why is a good thing for her to stay? It breaks my heart. Even without the alcohol, I look at people who are just miserable together and wonder what the good is in that? Is there a chance some of them may work through it? Of course, but there is a chance that many will just disintegrate (as noted by pinkmtn above) and how very sad that is. So I do feel compelled to say that if one does decide to divorce, there will be some who condemn it, but there will be others who will look and say, you know what, I know it was hard, I know you tried, but I get it. It is okay, you are a still a worthy human being. The OP may not need to hear that at this point, but I suspect there are many lurkers reading this who may need a reminder of that as well.

Re the religious aspect ... It was once said to me (and it's something I believe) that although "til death do us part" is specified in the traditional marriage liturgy, there are other ways for death to come to a marriage besides the leaving of our physical bodies.

I'll ad to what Jen said by saying my hubby did a study while getting his degree from Grace University and there are legitimate reasons for divorce when one of the spouses breaks the vows in some way. And now that I wrote that I think that's just what Jen meant. Foggy brain lately caused from crying and thinking too much and trying to keep busy so as not to think to much, I guess.

((((((Justgotabme))))))

As your name states, just be you. Allow yourself to feel it when it hits you - or put up a wall and make sure it doesn't roll over you. Be good to YOU during this painful time.

Thank you Jen. My name fits me well, as no matter how much I try to change, I am who I am. I'm hoping to be able to drive home and surprise her for her birthday Monday. Working on arrangements for caring for our Grandson after school. I'm still haven't gotten down the days that his mom picks him up. I'm hoping it's Monday next week. If only I could remember what days he was here this week. Son has custody. I just can't remember. Even when he's gone just overnight I miss him so much it seems like days.