I know it's an old thread, but I came across it and felt I could add something for other people wondering the same thing. Wow, so ok, this thread is... very interesting? Went from somewhat helpful to nursery bashing lol. There are four ways to control vigor/ size in a tree: Precocity, spacing, dwarfing rootstocks, and pruning out large branches. You can plant them 2ft apart in the row and 8ft alleys as a spindle if you want, or 20 ft apart as an open vase if you want (hint: the spindle is going to yield more than the vase per acre). The biggest thing to maximizing yields is maximizing bearing surface and light interception per acre. I use dual-leader UFO (upright fruiting offshoot) training for everything now. UFO was originally developed for spur-fruiting species (apples, plums, pears, cherries), but it can be modified to work with tip and year-old-growth bearing species (some apples, peaches, apricots). You just have to space out your uprights more and allow for limited lateral branching. For peaches, I plant trees 8 feet apart in row, with 7ft alleys (I use a TYM 234 tractor). I plant the trees at roughly a 45 degree angle. I allow the uprights on the primary leader to grow (keep terminal bud upright), and select one below the bottom cordon to train as the second leader. I then remove the other buds below the bottom wire. By the end of 1st leaf, you should have both leaders tied to the wire, and mostly filled the space between trees, you've pruned off the pendant shoots, and you should have some fruiting wood for next year. In the winter, tip back the fruit sticks and eliminate damaged/crowded wood. second leaf- limited fruiting possible, focus on establishing your uprights roughly every 10 inches (6 inches for spur bearing species) and finish filling in the space. Eliminate pendant wood, shoots sticking outside of the vertical plane, and any uprights beyond your "permanent" ones in late summer, after any harvest (limited regrowth that way). Next year's fruiting wood is now on the upright shoots. Tip back the fruit sticks and eliminate damaged/crowded fruiting wood. Third Leaf- should definitely get fruit, goal is to get your upright shoots to the top wire (which for a should be roughly 75% of your alley width, IMO). Same kind of pruning as previous years. At some point, your laterals are going to start to grow together, at that point, you need to do renewal pruning in the winter back to a bud near the upright. Once your uprights get to about 1.25x your alley width, head the uprights back to on bud above the top wire (otherwise you'll shade the bottom of the next row). As uprights approach 3/4 to 1 inch diameter at the base, take the largest one every year down to one bud above the leader (unlike apples and cherries, peaches don't regenerate as readily, so you need to give it the best chance). All renewal type pruning should be done before budbreak, to encourage vigorous regrowth.

Bradybb: Those are good looking plants. Bigger than the FHN Sweetcrisp I got in June. Mine are growing like weeds and I haven't given up on a touch of fruit next year. If I figured out how to post pics from photobucket anyone can. There are four codes associated with each picture on PB. Tap on the second from bottom to highlight that code. Then right click to copy that code. Now come back to your post in progress here. Hit enter several times to move the cursor down several lines. Then for some reason you must click the cursor back up to the bottom of the text and then run it back down using the arrow key. Now right click and paste the PB code into your post. Review the post to see what you've done.

Mike, and others, I appreciate your positive perspectives. While books, magazines and 'experts' create gardening 'laws', these are really meant for the uninitiated, those lacking ambition or those who don't want to wander too far off the proven track for gardening success. While I can appreciate the typical garden, I didn't want that for my own setting. People seem to want to be unique but a lot of them still seem to end up buying a red sports car, a blue minivan for the family and a golden retriever. Doing something different or unique is inherantly challenging and there is plenty of risk. There's certainly no guarentee that my gardens will turn out exactly as I planned them but per the cliche, usually life is about the journey, not the destination. As my gardens evolve, it will be interesting to see what worked great, what didn't work at all and what new things I try as opportunities present themselves. Hopefully however I mold it, my gardens please ME first and my neighbors/visitors second. I wouldn't want to live with a garden everyone else considered great if I myself didn't enjoy it. Mike I do want to say that your garden photos have had serious impact on my views and plans longterm. To me, it's a near perfect, lifelong project of intermixing a wonderful mature setting with collector and rare selections. I can't imagine designing something as majestic - but I can try! Here's a few more photos, I'm hopeful people enjoy them(but this isn't required! :) Pots, extending the garden onto the deck. My simply, but effective paths. Seperating shade from sun gardens. This grass is endangered! It takes too much water/pesticide/fertilizer/work, and it surely is holding back my collecting habit! -Will

On the last library visit I picked up Books Baguettes & Bedbugs by Jeremy Mercer. I have ploughed though the first 100 pages and can take no more of it! I was looking forward to reading about the famous Paris Left Bank 'Shakespeare & Co' shop but found little about books and way too much about Mercer who is/was a sleazy reporter with a Canadian paper who was forced to leave the country in a hurry and finds a bed at the shop. Perhaps he is still paid by the number of words he produces but I found the style sloppy with too much American slang, and way too many 'characters' unappealing . . . how many drunken/druggie old hippies do I want to read about . .. and if I ever read the word authored (meaning written) again, it will be too soon.