Where are you and what type of seed/grass are you planting?

Are you planting 5000 or 55000 of yard? (or did you mean that the yard is 5-5.5k in area?

What were the UofM recommendations for NPK?

There are methods for reducing the hard soil issues. It appears that you have silty sand, sandy silt, so shampoo may be your cure.

You do not need or want to till the NPK or OM into the soil. Surface application works fine, especially on your soil type. You can't adjust everything at one time, especially when seeding. You'll be applying starter fertilizer, so that's about the max you want to do for the first month with amendments. OM takes time. Mulching your grass rather than bagging, mulching leaves every Fall and the optional topdressing will improve the OM over time.

Do you have what you need to keep the whole seed bed moist?

Are you slit seeding? Topdressing (peat moss is a good option)? Rolling?

I'm in mid-michigan and am partial to kbg. I was leaning toward a kbg mix though due to my understanding it may aid quicker establishment. 5 to 5.5k square foot yard is correct.

I'm assuming the baby shampoo wouldn't inhibit the establishment of the lawn or you wouldn't recommend it. Just put the shampoo on when I seed and fertilize? How much?

I don't have an irrigation system so my plan was to buy one of those little timers that goes on the spigot and deal with the headache of shuffling sprinklers for a while.

My original plan was to till/amend/seed/roll before finding this forum. Based on my circumstances, would you recommend slit seeding?

Thank you so much for your time.

I forgot to include MSU's recommendations.

3-4 lbs N/1000sqft

0.5 lbs P/1000sqft

2.9 lbs K/1000sqft

They also recommend I work in some organic material.

>>>I'm in mid-michigan and am partial to kbg. I was leaning toward a kbg
mix though due to my understanding it may aid quicker establishment. 5
to 5.5k square foot yard is correct.

IMO nothing beats KBG :) If you do a mix, the KBG wont extablish any faster. The Fescue or rye will though. Rye can begin sprouting in as early as a week and fescue shortly thereafter, fut the KBG can take three weeks or more. and has to compete with the already growing grass. Most peaple will stop watering the lawn once the Rye and Fescue gets growing and the KBG never makes it.

>>>I'm assuming the baby shampoo wouldn't inhibit the establishment of
the lawn or you wouldn't recommend it. Just put the shampoo on when I
seed and fertilize? How much?

Baby Shampoo or plain White Rain without any additives like conditioner. I would apply the shampoo a couple days prior to seeding and water it in well. (to my knowledge the shampoo will have no adverse affect on the seed, but the whole point is to soften the soil for the seed and nutrient and water penetration and that takes at least a few days.) 3oz of shampoo per 1000 sq feet of yard. apply with a hose end sprayer. If you just want to soften up the top 1/2" of soil for good seed/soil contact, you can use a slit seeder/ solic blade verticle rake set at 1/2 to 1" depth and make a few passes over the entire lawn before seeding.

>>>I don't have an irrigation system so my plan was to buy one of those
little timers that goes on the spigot and deal with the headache of
shuffling sprinklers for a while.

I've done the same and it is a headache.

>>>My original plan was to till/amend/seed/roll before finding this
forum. Based on my circumstances, would you recommend slit seeding?

I've found that slit seeding gives superior germination results with KBG, but I don't recommend it for Rye or Fescue or a mix. For Rye or Fescue I get best results by running the slit seeder first at a good depth to soften the soil, then spread seed and roll or topdress with no more than 1/4" of peat moss.

Rule of thumb (there are exceptions): avoid adding more than 1# of any amendment per month. The starter fertilizer used at seeding will give you 1# of P, and depending on the content, about 1/2# of K and all the N that new seedlings need until the first mow. The N recommendation is for a whole year so 1# N each of the following: Memorial Day, Late August, Late September and then around Thanksgiving as a winterizer. Post again when you do your first mow and I, or someone here can help you on what to put down and when.

I'm glad you said that. My next line of questioning was going to be about how much fertilizer to put down when I seed. I was anticipating adding enough fertilizer to satisfy the entire suggestion from the university. That's why in my first post I said I was intended to put down starter and "regular" fertilizer along with some potash.

For the K, I'd personally use potassium sulfate (sulfate of potash) at 2 pounds per thousand square feet in early October and whenever in May, which will give you 2 pounds of total potassium (the 2 pound balance is mostly oxygen bound to some sulfur). You can get that at most landscape places or garden shops.

While it's pretty harmless, I'd give the new grass a month to grow without being stressed by the stuff.

Fortunately, none of the additives have to be tilled in. They'll all work in on their own just fine.

I'm about to purchase my seed online from seedsuperstore and would like advice on the type of KBG to get. I live in mid-michigan. I have a westward facing house with trees on the east edge of the property that may block early sun in the backyard but it's not bad. Should I be blending different types? Award type is suggested for my area.

It's been a long time since I reviewed KBG seed cultivars. I know that a couple of years ago, they had developed one that was more shade tollerant. As different cultivars can have different growth rates and color, I'd suggest you stick with a blend that has been chosen by the professionals rather than making your own. Someone else may be able to suggest a blend for your needs. If the area gets a good 6+ hours of sun, most KBG should handle it.

By the way, this is some scary stuff. I'm so worried something will go wrong and I will have invested a bunch of time and money in vain. The scariest part is I don't know what I don't know. :O

Spoiler: The real terror doesn't start until seeding day. Then follows about three weeks of unrestrained panic and, if you're the sort to do so, drinking.

It should be some consolation that we've all been through this, and the window of acceptable care for sprouting seed is so wide that it's difficult to screw up if you follow the basics (watering thrice daily, mostly).

Consider. A hundredth of a percent or so of seeds manage in nature, and that's with ground that's already growing things, other plants trying to suppress out growth, and completely unreliable rainfall during a season that tends to feature drier weather anyway. Comparatively speaking, we're coddling these things as if they were made of spun glass.

They're definitely not. They've evolved for forty million years to deal with some of the harshest high plains conditions imaginable.

"To blend or not to blend.....that is the question." - Shakespeare

I hope my advice hasn't caused such concern.

Due to my own past experiences I try to give advice that is balanced between ease, expense, and effectiveness. I try not to give erroneous product information, but when I do, there is fortunately always someone here to catch it and correct me.

No no no no no, you are not the source of any of my anxiety. I produce it in volumes all on my own.

You've been extremely helpful and I greatly appreciate your time and attention.

>>thanks for that morpheuspa. i'm already rehearsing my "long germination time" speech to the panicking wife after there's no growth in a couple weeks.

Oh, wait. Your panic is nothing to the rest of the household's. "So when exactly is this supposed #^@%$-ing lawn going to start #^@%$-ing growing?"

I was comparatively calm and even I had a few bumps in the Road of Tranquility. I know that I know what I'm doing. What I don't know is if the seed could handle the sudden surprise heat wave we got, followed by the sudden surprise series of incredibly intense thunderstorms.

It all worked out fine, but I did have to reseed about 50 square feet. I'd kept enough seed behind for that purpose and then some. Miss this window and you can still dormant seed any problem areas in January or February to sprout in March or early April. It's not optimal, but it does work.

>>While I have you, do you have any insight on the type of KBG I should be planting? Award is suggested for my area but I've read that a blend of different KBG's is preferred for several reasons. I've placed a call and left a message with seedsuperstore to ask this very question but would love to hear any opposing feedback available.

I am not, not, not a fan of using a single cultivar in a lawn. Award is a good grass, don't get me wrong, but if you should happen to get a disease that it's susceptible to, there's nothing stopping it from infecting every single surrounding blade. And so on.

If your trees only block early sun and you get mid-morning sun through sunset, you're really good to go with any type of KBG. Six hours of good sun a day is entirely sufficient for KBG, although more is always better (except in really hot weather when it does benefit from a bit of a mid-day break).

I have a strong preference for mixing one each from three different families, each with different resistances (which happens naturally when you choose three different families).

http://www.sroseed.com/resources/pdfs/articles/KB_classifications.pdf

There's a chart, quite up to date.

If you want to use Award (Compact-Midnight), that's great. Wonderful grass.

I'd definitely choose a matching grass from the Compact-America list to complement it. Moonlight is a good choice, if a touch old at this point, and with a slightly wider blade. SSS may have a more modern suggestion for you from this list.

You could mix in something like Moonlight (edit: Moonshadow, I had a mental frisson) from the Compact listing as well, although it's going to differ a bit from the other two cultivars. And that purple undertone in winter? They're not kidding.

My lawn was seeded some years ago, with Midnight II, Moonlight, and Bedazzled (Two Americas and a Midnight). In retrospect, if it had been available at the time, I would have chosen Prosperity over Bedazzled.

FYI: Back when I was shopping for seed, the stores charged extra for making special blends. If they talk pre-made, make sure they know you want a blend of KBG, not a mix. Blend means all one turf grass type (like KBG) but different families and cultivars of that type. Mix is different turf types (Fescue, Rye and KBG mixed). The pre-made blends were usually less expensive than making a special blend. Ask them what they have and what is in it, then you can check the NTEP for characteristics to see if it meets your standards. http://www.ntep.org/

Let say I have seed, starter fertilizer, peat moss, lawn roller, broadcast spreader, overseeder (i can rent one if need be), now what? What am I missing? Anything?

Do I broadcast the seed, then the fertilizer, top dress with peat moss then roll? Broadcast fertilizer, seed with overseeder, peat moss, roll? I don't know what to do.

I've searched the sight but can't seem to find the recommended procedure and I don't want to trust other website articles instructions (they told me to till).

Also, I failed to mention that i have a steep grade from the from to the back (walkout basement), are those straw blankets ok/recommended?

As always, thanks for your time.

All you really need is the seed and the broadcast spreader (and even the spreader just makes it easier). The rest is gravy.

Seed, roll, starter, peat, then water would be my order of application, but as long as the peat ends up on top of the seed, it's not completely critical otherwise.

>>Also, I failed to mention that i have a steep grade from the from to the back (walkout basement), are those straw blankets ok/recommended?

While the peat will help hold things in place, you may need additional help there. I'm not a fan of the straw blankets (which come with plenty of weed seeds in them). Burlap works, though.

Fantastic. Thank you.

The burlap is interesting. I'm looking at burlap rolls for landscaping like this one http://www.homedepot.com/p/Jobe-s-Organics-3-ft-x-100-ft-Natural-Burlap-31100/202251731

Looks pretty dense. The sunshine is getting through that ok? Lay it down on top of the peat moss and tack it to the ground?

Burlap has a very coarse weave, and the blades will aim to pop right through the holes (they'll use the light as a guide for where to head). You'll also want to remove it after sprout is well underway. For KBG, that's somewhere between 20 to 30 days, usually, but it'll vary by the weather.

And yep, just tack it over the peat (they should sell little metal stakes right next to the stuff). Between the peat and the burlap, nothing is going to go anywhere unless a hurricane hits. And I even have a story about that on a completely uncovered seed bed on a modest slope (which did very well).

got some time so...

From minimum/easiest to anal (from top to bottom, the work and care involved increases, but, in my opinion the likelihood of successful germination slightly increases) :

Scalp (bag or rake debris), spread seed, spread starter fertilizer, water (the first watering to be until saturation-but no run-off or puddling, thereafter keep moist).

Scalp (bag or rake debris), spread seed, roll, spread starter fertilizer, water.

Verticut (no deeper than 1/2"- maybe 3/4" at the very max), Scalp (bag or rake debris), spread seed, roll, spread starter fertilizer, water.

Scalp (bag or rake debris), spread seed, roll, spread starter fertilizer, topdress with peat moss, water.

Scalp (bag or rake debris), spread seed, verticut (adjust verticutter to cut a furrow 1/8-1/4" in low spots, but no more than 1/2" in high spots, ideal overall depth is 1/4"), roll, spread starter fertilizer, water.

Scalp (bag or rake debris), spread seed, verticut, roll, spread starter fertilizer, topdress with peat moss, water.

Verticut, Scalp (bag or rake debris), spread seed, verticut, roll, spread starter fertilizer, topdress
with peat moss, water.

Pick your poison :)

*I've identified the slit seeder as a verticuter. The slit seeders available for rental are, in reality, a verticutter with a drop spreader attached, so the process is actually verticutting seed in. I make this distinction because the spreader on the "slit seeder" should not be used. Use a separate broadcast spreader to distribute the seed.

** When a verticutter is used on a slope, never make more than two passes. If making one pass, run across the slope, if making two passes run each at 45 degrees or less to the slope. Only one pass is recommended when using a verticutter on a significant slope where erosion is likely.

You have all the seeding suggestions you can stand. What they have not mentioned is prepping the soil with RoundUp. If you seed into your current soil you stand a great chance of germinating all the weed seeds along with the new grass. But if you start now and water lightly every day for a week, you can germinate the weed seeds prior to the grass. Then next weekend you can spot spray the new weeds to kill those. THEN you can seed new grass seed without fear of sprouting weeds.

Question on tilling - I understand the advice not to, but how do i
incorporate the fertilizer into the soil without it, my ground is pretty
hard and I must plant quickly.

I think this was answered. You never need to incorporate fertilizer into soil. Morph might have a different opinion, but I try to watch Mother Nature. She has no way of incorporating anything into the soil by any efficient means. Everything goes on top with Her.

Fertilizer - I'm planning on using a combination of starter
fertilizer, (regular?) fertilizer, and potash sulfate to satisfy the NPK
needs of the soil. As far as organic material needed (as suggested by
the university) I'm unsure what to use. My local landscape companies
price on delivered compost is pretty expensive. Am I on the right track
with the fertilizer? Any suggestions on compost/organic material?

The best organic matter you can get is dead grass roots. First you need grass, so don't worry about it for now. Grass sloughs off about 1/3 of its roots every year, so all you need is the initial roots to get that process started. Those dead roots are all part of Nature's way of getting OM into the soil.

Mulch - Any advice on effective topdressing?

Not needed. If you use it be careful not to smother the new seed. Again Mother Nature does not use top dressing with normal seeding. Her normal seeding is done by foraging animals who walk into, or stampede through, a field of grain knocking some seed to the ground. Then they walk (or stampede) on it with their hooves. The weight of their bodies is distributed over the area of their hooves such that even huge animals press on the soil at about the same pressure as we do. That's perfect for pressing the seed into the soil surface and making good contact. Covering it up, in my opinion, is overkill.

Thank you for your comments dchall. I love all the information.

I actually started to weed the yard this weekend by handpicking. Who knew you could blister your hand picking weeds. :) Anyways, I am all about being thorough and would like to follow the roundup suggestions but I'm worried about waiting too long to seed, as I'm am doing 100% kbg. But, if you say it's a-ok I'm inclined to trust you.

Fertilizer- Is your opinion that I don't need any fertilizer application at the time of seeding? Edit: My reading comprehension slipped a little there. You were just referring to organic matter application.

As for topdressing, I've got the hint from others that a topdressing isn't completely necessary but surely I need something on top of the seed on the slope, no?

We usually get frost here mid October, maybe sooner, so that makes me feel like I'm on the back edge of the planting window for kbg. I don't think I have a week to spare. Dangit!

I get frost middling-October, and we're exactly in the right window for KBG. You have a week, easily, and two if you push it. I don't advise pushing it if you don't absolutely have to, but fortunately you can seed very quickly post-Round Up.

>>Fertilizer- Is your opinion that I don't need any fertilizer application at the time of seeding? Edit: My reading comprehension slipped a little there. You were just referring to organic matter application.

Neither is absolutely required, but I don't object to a one-time application of starter fertilizer with the seed. You may not need it, but it isn't going to do an enormous amount of damage, either.

>>As for topdressing, I've got the hint from others that a topdressing isn't completely necessary but surely I need something on top of the seed on the slope, no?

While not strictly necessary (it's helpful and it's good insurance against drying out, but...), slopes may require a little something to hold things in place.

Compost has good mass and doesn't move easily, so that's always a good choice on a hefty slope.

Peat is very light, but for shallow slopes it'll do fine.

Known erosion areas benefit from having burlap over the top. You can put the burlap down right on the seed and soil, or atop a compost or peat moss top dressing.

In any case, 1/4" of coverage is the absolute maximum (burlap can go atop that as you're going to remove it anyway).

The yard has been sprayed with roundup and all the weeds are browning. Do I need to pull all the dead stuff or can I mow it short and bag the clippings?

Mow short and bag the clippings--but wait until the Round Up has been on the lawn for 3 full days to give it ample time to translocate through the plant and reach all the roots.

Well tomorrow's the big day. Just about all vegetation in my yard (weeds) is dead and ready to be mowed and bagged.

Here's my plan;

Scalp/bag. Rake the entire yard with a landscape rake to "scratch" the surface, not deeply. Apply seed with spreader. Roll lawn. Apply 24-25-4 starter fertilizer at a rate that gives me 1lb N /1000sqft. Apply 1/8th inch of finished compost (I found a source that is cheaper than the peat moss). Tack burlap down on top of areas prone to erosion. Water until thoroughly moistened, no puddles.

My plan is to complete this in one day. Wish me luck!

Sounds wonderful, and good luck!

Alright I've got the majority of the lawn seeded (the unseeded portion requires a whole new thread to discuss) the fertilizer and compost down. Whew! A lot of work. I'm now regretting now renting a verticutter. The reason being is that despite rolling the lawn after broadcasting the seed, I'm seeing some seed mixed in with the compost and I'm afraid that not enough seed has made good contact with the soil. If this doesn't work I may need to buy a new house in a new neighborhood on account of the shame. My neighbors who told me to hydroseed have been paying close attention my sweat and tears I'm putting into this yard. My goodness, hahaha, I'm a nervous wreck.

Breathe, it'll be okay :-)

+1 PKponder. Seed is entirely capable of sprouting in a thin layer of compost, and adjusting its roots systems downward as the compost decays (which does not happen that quickly).

"Some" seed mixed in is not a problem, in other words, and most of the seed is probably perfectly happily nested against the soil. It'll also settle as you water it.

This is the beginning of the "Panic" phase of "Seed, Water, Panic," it's just hitting a little early in your case. Every single one of us gets at least a little nervous (including me).

Remember what I said above? "Spoiler: The real terror doesn't start until seeding day. Then follows about three weeks of unrestrained panic and, if you're the sort to do so, drinking."

Toldja so. :-)

Got hit with some violent storms last night and experienced some wash out. Fortunately, some seeds have already germinated and stayed put. Definitely not a catastrophic loss but still disappointing. I'm happy about how quick I got germination, 7-8 days! Seed is a blend of bewitched, prosperity and midnight. Areas under the burlap have grown the best, who knew? Some small areas that were affected most by the water have pure white seedlings laying there limp, it's sad. Anyways, you guys are awesome and have helped me through this process so much, thank you. If I could buy you folks a drink, I would. I'll be back soon to ask about fertilization of my new babies. Thanks again.

Unless you have gullies, you may be OK even in the washout areas. By day 7, many seeds have dropped radicles (embryonic roots), which can hold onto the soil unless the soil itself is washed away.

Fertilizer isn't required until day 30 (and it's wise to keep off the lawn as much as possible until that point, at which point you can traverse it cautiously and occasionally if you must).