Well, the only thing that has been applied to the back yard is Pennington Fast Lime (9 lbs per 1000 SF, approx.). And it's only been a few days since that application.

I have ordered moss killer (Lilly Miller "Moss Out!" liquid) and Tenacity. I am planning on killing the moss in a week or so, and then applying Tenacity all over both the front and back yards.

Before I do that, I am planning on using a surfactant (baby shampoo?) and applying it on the yard to make sure that the Tenacity gets past the surface.

Also, I am planning on dormant overseeding. Anyone have a procedure for this? Should I overseed with the same mix, or should I use something like fine fescue as some of the areas where the grass is having a lot of trouble is rather heavily shaded in the summer time?

According to the label Tenacity can be used on new grass 4 weeks after germination or after the second mowing, whichever is longer. It should be used with a non-ionic surfactant. The surfactant makes it stick to the leaves better. I don't understand what you trying to do with "make sure thst the Tenacity gets past the surface." The surface of what? To do what? Tenacity may whiten your grass, which is not a problem if it is growing fast. However, your grass is just getting established and may not be growing rapidly. Unless the weeds are interfering with the grass, it may be good to deal with them next spring instead of now. Herbicides are a stress on the grass, and your grass can deal with the stress better when it is better established. Tenacity is a specialty herbicide. For general broadleaf weeds, ordinary weedkillers like Weed B Gon and Weed B Gon CCO will take out the majority of the weeds. You are limited on how much Tenacity you can use per year so you should save it for specific weeds other weedkillers don't control.

For dormant seeding, the best time to try would probably be mid to late February, just before a snowstorm with snow that will stick around awhile. You spread the seeds and they germinate later in the spring (April? May?) after the soil warms up enough. No need to water as the ground is damp anyway that time of year. Sometimes it's successful, sometimes not.

I have a low opinion of fine fescue, at least the creeping red kind. It goes dormant in hot weather and is brown all summer. And it's hard to get rid of. Roundup has no effect on it while it's dormant. KBG needs a lot of sun. Maybe check out tttf? That's the most common grass grown here.

If you dormant seed, you will not be able to use normal pre-emergent in March. You could use Tenacity as a short term pre-emergent until the grass germinates and is established well enough for normal pre-emergent.

Thanks, all good info. I was under the impression that Tenacity needs to get into the soil to prevent weed seeds from germinating later. Although maybe it doesn't need to get far into the soil.

I was also concerned that the areas where the grass isn't growing may be compacted, and maybe a surfactant would help with that.

I, too, am not a fan of fine fescue. I believe that is what was in the lawn under the large trees before I started the reno. But it was always crunchy and brown in the summer, plus it seemed to be really damaged by any amount of foot traffic. I am also thinking that there may be more sunlight available in the back yard as I cut down those two rear-most trees.

The baby shampoo will help soften the ground. Go ahead and do that. Tenacity can be used as a pre-emergent when seeding or as a post emergent. If you were going to use it as a pre-emergent you would have used it when you seeded. When used as a pre-emergent, you do not use a surfactant and you water it in so it gets to the soil. It is short-lived and only protects against weed germination for about 30 days. So it is very useful when used at the same time as seeding. A subsequent application protects another 30 days and after that maybe the grass is well enough established to use a normal pre-emergent which gives months of protection. When used as a post emergent, you use a nonionic surfactant with it so that it sticks to the leaves of the weeds and grass.

Thanks. Right now my concern is using Tenacity as a post-emergent, as I already have tons of weeds that I want to knock out before they go dormant in the winter. Is the baby shampoo a non-ionic surfactant?

Also, it seems to me that the last couple of days of cold weather have pretty much stopped grass growth. I'm not sure it will need a third mowing before springtime in the back yard, and the front may never need to be mowed before the really cold weather comes. We'll see!

Bonide Turbo Spreader Sticker is an example of a nonionic surfactant. I think it's a mistake to use Tenacity now, especially if you haven't mowed the front yard at all. The weeds can be dealt with next spring when your grass is better established and actively growing.

Front yard is looking pretty darn good. Very few weeds, too, which is a surprise given what's been happening in back! I think I am going to mow it tomorrow for the first time.

The split walkway doesn't seem to be coming in that great, but that's OK. Our intent was to widen/redo the driveway anyway and build a landscaping wall, which would eliminate most of that area anyway.

OK I just ordered the potassium sulfate. I should be putting it on the yard at a rate of 2 pounds per 1000 SF soon!

I will update the photos, but I am starting to look more and more forward to the spring time.

I added the Potassium Sulfate. Unfortunately, I bought the regular powdered potassium sulfate and it basically was just blowing away as I was putting it down. I'm sure most of it got down to the soil, but something tells me I should've gone with a lawn-purposed product instead of something that looks like it's for science experiments!

The granular is a lot easier to handle, yes. If you think you lost (say) a third of it, you could add back that much more on a windstill day and water it in a little bit.

Potassium levels aren't something I worry about if overapplied within reasonable amounts. But given how little potassium you really need, I'd probably just ignore the error as inconsequential.

I am about to apply Tenacity. I think I worked out the concentrations.

I have about 6000SF to cover, and I have three products to apply at once:

1. Tenacity

2. Mark-It Blue

3. Bonide Turbo Spreader

I was going to fill my 16 ounce volume sprayer with:

Tenacity - 5 tsp (approx. .85 fl oz)

Mark-It Blue - 6 fl. oz.

Bonide Turbo Spreader - 8 fl. oz.

Water - 1.15 oz to make 16 ounces

and spray at a setting of 2 tbsp per gallon

The resulting concentrations are:

mixed/(ideal)

Tenacity 0.04%/(<0.16%)

Mark-It Blue - 0.29% (.78%)

Bonide Turbo Spreader - 0.39% (.78%)

I assume Tenacity will be OK applied at a lower concentration, as the instruction say to apply it at a rate of 4-8 oz per acre with at least 30 gallons of water. I am going to be applying it at that rate with ~120 gallons of water.

I figure the other two items (Mark-It Blue) and Bonide will be OK at lower than optimal concentrations, as Bonide seems to be somewhat optional, and Mark-It Blue is just a cosmetic guide to help me apply evenly.

What do you guys think? Are these concentrations OK, assuming my math is right?

No, you cannot use a hose end sprayer. You must mix Tenacity in a pump sprayer and at the 4 oz /acre rate, it is 0.55 teaspoons per gallon for 1000 square feet. If you have a two gallon sprayer, you can mix 1.1 teaspoons in two gallons of water and spray that over 2000 square feet. Before you do any of this, you should practice with plain water in your sprayer and mark off exactly the square feet (you could try with one gallon over 1000 square feet). You may have to make some adjustments on your sprayer or how fast you walk. Maybe mark off 1000 square feet on your driveway and spray that with water (you will see the water there). You must use a pump sprayer.

Tenacity can whiten your KBG. It may or may not have that effect. In the growing season the KBG would simply keep growing and you would be mowing off the whitened grass as you mow each week. It's November and the grass is not growing fast so if you spray now, you may have whitened grass all winter long until the grass starts growing again in the spring. The herbicide may not be as effective now on the weeds as their growth is slowing down too. Unless the weed problem is overwhelming, it may be better to wait until spring.

The Tenacity application I did seemed to have very good results so far. But my grass in the back yard is still pretty weak looking--we'll see how it turns out in the springtime.

We are about to get a major snowstorm, and I'm wondering 2 things:

1. Is it too early in the season to attempt a dormant overseeding?

2. Will the Tenacity application interfere with any seeds that I am dormant overseeding?

1. No, this is great! We're just coming to the middle point of winter (Groundhog's Day is the halfway point, within a few days). Application just before a major snowfall is perfect, and January is a great time to dormant seed.

2. Not at all. Tenacity can safely be used as a pre-emergent right on top of seed.

OK, I put about 10 pounds of seed out on about 1500SF of the yard. We'll see what happens in the spring!! I didn't realize that I put 10 pounds down, but based on what I said before, I had already put down 10 pounds when I seeded the back yard in the fall, and I had purchased a 20 pound bag so I must've just put down 10 pounds. Oops!

It'll work itself out. Keep a close eye on it for fungal diseases as they can sweep through a dense, young stand like that and do major damage.

Eventually, competition will thin it naturally.

So I think we got about 24" of snow. I'm sure by the time it melts, it will be the middle of April!

Maybe, although melt out has already begun here (in PA). No matter how it works out, it's fine for your dormant seeding, though!

amcdonal86, have you considered replacing it with artificial grass? You wouldn't have to deal with patchy grass or areas not growing due to shade. Our USA-made products come with a 15-year warranty and would give you a lush, green, even lawn year-round. Our products also have a drain rate of 30 inches per hour, so you can enjoy the outdoors soon after it rains or snows. Let us know if you have any questions!

Amazing Before and After Photos · More Info

Hey guys, it's been a while since I provided an update. We're having some warm spring-like weather here, and it seems the grass is starting to wake up. Unfortunately, right now the grass in the back yard looks like crap. Much of the grass has barely survived the winter, especially in the trouble areas from the fall. However, this weekend I did some edging and ended up with some nice KBG grass plugs/patches that I scattered around the trouble spots. Hopefully these will take root and when the real growing season starts they will spread!!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--UMAVxWDjp0/VuTr71dUf3I/AAAAAAAAKUc/OQbg_OAhzrI-2rRtSa7fwYB8InRwzT6ygCCo/s1024-Ic42/upload_-1

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-t0cZfEtHF5Y/VuTszCVoxiI/AAAAAAAAKUg/ckQlV2pqTfk9QSPevy75AgWDkXzzNxJGwCCo/s640-Ic42/upload_-1

Seems my backyard renovation has not turned out so well--so far! I'm hoping it's just too early to tell right now and that things will change when the KBG greens up.

Some things I'm worried about:

1. Very poor establishment on much of the back yard, and moss has taken over during the winter (although I tried to beat it back with Moss Out). Seems to me that perhaps I tried to seed the back yard too early (temps were too hot). Front yard and side yard which were seeded 2 weeks later have done much better. I did do a dormant overseeding before our 2 foot snow storm at the end of January.

2. Weeds. As has clover in some parts (not as worried about this). Ground ivy/creeping charlie is sprouting again, too.

3. Poa annua. It seems that a sizeable part of the grass is being invaded with poa annua. I decided today to apply Tenacity at a rate of 1 tsp per gallon per 1000 SF or so. I'm hoping this takes care of the poa annua in the short term and that a fall application of Tenacity will knock it out completely.

4. My neighbors to the right have built an addition on their house that reduces the amount of afternoon sun that much of the yard gets (closer to the house). Not sure what the effect will be yet.

Some photos:

Overall shots

Suspected Poa Annua

Probably the worst of the mossy areas with little grass. You can see where I took a grass plug from another part of the yard and planted it there, hoping that it will spread. (I ended up with grass plugs when I started contouring the bed with the thuja trees).

One of the better spots in the back yard, but is only a couple feet across.

Front yard looks like it will have a good shot this spring!

Also, are there any "organic" soil amendments that would be recommended in my case? I am wary of compost because of all the weed seeds. But I just don't know if topdressing would be beneficial or not!

I believe KGB prefers sunlight,with the trees, neighbors house, and signs of moss, how much direct sunlight does the back yard get?

Not exactly sure. Also, since I did the reno, I installed a shed in the back yard which also blocks some amount of southern sun.

I'd say parts of the back yard get 4-6 hours of direct sunlight, and the least that any part gets of direct sunlight is about 2-3 hours. The varieties of KBG I selected are supposed to have "good" shade tolerance, but obviously the more sun the better for KBG!

However, the more shaded parts of the back yard aren't the only areas having issues.

I am trying to decide whether or not to mulch over some parts of the grass I'm trying to plant and instead try to make some sort of a shade garden (hostas, etc.).

From the research I'm doing, I could be waiting until May before spring greenup occurs on the elite KBG. I just hope this means that even the small blades of KBG that survived the winter will green up and thrive.

Gorgeous! Maybe I should get one of those!

I was going to have three of my four oak trees removed to get some more sunlight in the back yard and to reduce the safety hazard, but I was quoted $4000+ by a few companies.

Any harm in applying Milorganite to the lawn? When would it be best to do this? Or is it a bad idea??

By the way, I applied Tenacity earlier last week. I think on Tuesday, 3/22/2016. Seems like clovers are starting to lighten a little bit. The poa annua in the back is definitely turning yellow now. My plan once the weeds start turning white is to hit them with a spot treatment to make sure they're gone for good!

The weeds are lightening a little more now--now many of them are neon green. The poa annua is the most severely affected so far. I am starting to feel a little better because it looks like even in the poorly germinated areas (near the trees), at least SOME KBG has survived the winter, even though it is only about 1/2" long in places. Hopefully it is just working on the roots right now and will come in strong in a month or so.

Also, the weed I thought was creeping charlie actually appears to be wild violet--I must have misidentified it or confused the two (I definitely had both at one point). Seems like creeping charlie is not coming back, but the wild violet is definitely on a rampage right now. Hopefully my Tenacity treatment will help!

Dumb question, but how do I know how much nitrogen is in my soils? I don't see it listed in my soil test results.

"Typically, nitrogen is not analyzed as part of a standard soil test because levels fluctuate too rapidly in soil to provide meaningful recommendations." That quote is from this Penn State article on fertilization. Good reading material here for you.

beckyinrichmond, I read your earlier post that said Milorganite can be applied at pretty much any time during the growing season. Unfortunately I did not apply a winterization fertilizer (missed that step, d'oh!). Is now a good time to apply Milorganite or will it be wasted? Soil temps are still around 50 degrees.

Back yard as of yesterday. A little more greening. I think much of the KBG has survived the winter, even in the more bare spots. I bet they have a shot at filling in.

March 12 for comparison

Apply the Milorganite. You have new grass and new grass could use a boost. It will be processed and used as conditions allow, as the soil microbes do their thing and as the grass can make use of it. It will help with color. Your main problem is going to be whether the grass gets enough sun.

Thanks. Looks like I'm also coming up on the time I'm supposed to apply some more Pennington Fast-Lime on the lawn. I'll probably wait a couple weeks on that to make sure I don't hurt anything.

OK! Put down 72 pounds of Milorganite yesterday--we'll see how things go over the next few weeks. The next two days will be warm (70s+) with a chance of rain and thunderstorms.

If you have shed space, True Value has Milorganite on sale online this month for $6.99. You can order online and get them to deliver to a local store for pickup. In Arlington there is Bill's True Value on Buchanan St. near Lee Hwy.

Oh wow, thanks for the heads up. I do have shed space! I think I spent $13 per 36 lb bag.

I'm thinking I am going to apply Milorganite once a month until the last winterization treatment in November. 16 or 20 36-pound bags?

There has been a change in the webpage. Price is still $6.99 but you can't order it online. Box says to check with your local store. Maybe they had a rush of online orders and need to get more product in before offering it again? If you ordered earlier today, you're good. If not, you could check with Bill's or check the webpage every now and then to see if it can be ordered online. As for applying it every month, apparently some people have done that. I would be cautious about putting anything, except water, on the lawn in the heat of summer.

I placed my order earlier, so I still got the deal. Thanks for the heads up!

Makes sense about summer.

Looks like my order didn't go through--I thought I had an order confirmation on the screen but I didn't receive any email and my credit card hasn't been charged.

I did a second blanket application of Tenacity yesterday, about a week and a half after the first one. Hopefully this will really knock the weeds down and when the KBG wakes up it will take over! The Tenacity really seems to be affecting the wild violet.

Here are some progress photos (4/3/2016):

Poa annua among some KBG starting to green up:

Typical shot of mossy areas on the right side of the back yard:

The absolute worst part of the back yard (you can see where I transplanted some good KBG from another part of the yard a few weeks ago), from the top:

and across:

Not much change over the last week--it was pretty cold! Did a 3rd blanket treatment of Tenacity in the back yard today, with a spot treatment in the front yard. I think that's going to be enough Tenacity for the spring now.

I decided to apply shampoo to the back yard (about 16 ounces), after reviewing some photos of what the yard used to look like before I started my lawn renovation. You can see a lot of green, but also areas where it is mossy and brown. I suspect in addition to less sunlight, those areas are compacted and/or have poor drainage. I notice in those areas, if I pour water down (since the grass is currently very thin there), water runs off almost immediately, so clearly water is not getting below the surface!

This is the before shot, in fall of last year. Hopefully things will improve enough to where I can have an after shot!!

Hvae you done the shampoo thing? If you are concerned that the dirt is too hard, the surfactants in the shampoo will allow better water absorption. Have you had a soil test? By the way, I doubt anyone is reading this thread because it takes too darn long to scroll to the bottom to see what was said. And no way are they are going to read through the whole saga. I get an email alert that you said something (because I had commented) and I can click to the bottom. But anyone new to the thread would have to scroll down a long time. You might start another thread for future questions and concerns. And then someone other than me might have ideas for you.