Where are you located?...

"He said our returns and duct work was adequate for 4-ton and thinks it might help with cooling issues."

Did the contractor do a load calculation? He needs to install the proper size.

Quote 1 is a 3.5 ton AC, while quote 2 is a 4 ton size. Why the difference?

The thermostat on quote 2 is wrong. It should be an Infinity controller. It was nice he gave you the AHRI directory number for quote 2. Unfortunately he has quoted the wrong coil and condenser. Is this his mistake or did you copy the wrong AHRI number?

6385574 Active Systems CARRIER COMFORT 16 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ABC642A**30 CNPV*4821AL* 1175 58CV(A,X)090-16 40500 13.00 15.50

Thank you for your help. I am located around Kansas City, KS area. He did not do a load calculation. I am considering having an energy audit performed so I have the load calcs and can also determine if there are any other major issues.

I forgot to show the pricing for comments as well. I apologize, I posted the wrong quote information so lets try again. Here are the original quotes with the 3.5 ton unit and he is suppose to send me revisions with the 4-ton unit on each of them.

Quotes:

1. Carrier equipment 13 seer a/c - 80% furnace - $5,779.00

58STA090---1--16 - Comfort series 88,000 btu single stage furnace 80%

24ABB342A003 - Comfort series 3.5 ton air conditioner

CNPVP4221ALA - Performance series 3.5 ton cased evaporator coil

TC-PAC01 - Comfort series programmable thermost

Filter cabinet & media filter

2 years labor warr

2. CARRIER equipment 15.5 seer a/c - 80% furnace - $7,230.00

Rated ARI6385574

58CVA090---1--16 - Infinity series 88,000 btu 2-stage variable speed

Furnace 80%

24ABC642A003 - Comfort series 3.5 ton air conditioner

CNPVP4821ALA - Performance series 4 ton cased evaporator coil

SYSTXCCITW01 - Infinity touch screen thermostat

Filter cabinet & media filter

3. Carrier equipment 16 seer a/c - 80% furnace - $9,009.00

Rated ARI6406556

58CVA090---1--16 - Infinity series 88,000 btu 2-stage variable speed Furnace 80%

24ANB748A003 - Infinity series 4 ton 2-stage air conditioner

CNPVP4821ALA - Performance series 4 ton cased evaporator coil

SySTXCCITW01 - Infinity touch screen thermostat

Filter cabinet & media filter

2 years labor Warr

4. CARRIER equipment 15.5 seer a/c - 80% furnace - $7,950.00

Rated ARI6385574

58PHA090---1--16 PERFORMANCE SERIES 88,000 BTU SINGLE STAGE

WITH ECM FAN MOTOR RATED 80% EFFICIENT

24ACC648A003 PERFORMANCE SERIES 4 TON SINGLE STAGE AIR CONDITIONER

CNPVP6124ALA PERFORMANCE SERIES 5 TON CASED EVAPORATOR COIL

TC-PAC01 COMFORT SERIES PROGRAMMABLE THERMOSTAT

Filter cabinet & media filter

On Quote #1, Would it be worth upgrading to the Performance 80 furnace (58CTW) that offers two-stage and VS blower or will it not provide much benefit without also going with a Performance or higher series AC?

It gets very cold in your area in the winter. Is there to way to vent a high efficiency furnace without disrupting your finished basement? Is the old chimney still going to be used? If not the PVC piping could run through up to the roof.

Upgrading to a 2-stage variable speed furnace is money well spent in my opinion. It will run quieter most of the time and you will be more comfortable. You don't have to get a 2-stage AC, but if your summers are humid then it is worth considering. It will give better humidity control. The 2-stage equipment only comes in whole ton sizes.

The Carrier Comfort equipment is not built as well as the Performance series. If the budget allows upgrade to the Performance especially if you plan to live in this house for a long time.

Get more quotes and see if you can find a contractor who will do a load calculation. The contractor should not be guessing at the sizes. Bryant is the same equipment and usually costs a little less, but not all Carrier models are available with the Bryant label. Trane and its sister company American Standard are also very good.

FYI - Carrier rebates usually start in September. You may be able to save a little money. Waiting until temperatures are mild and things slow down is also a good way to time your purchase.

Unless there are bldg/structural obstacles, I don't like the idea of 80% eff furnaces. I would look at the High eff 96% 2 stage var speed Performance furnace with Performance series AC condenser. I can make a recommendation if interested. Replacing low end with low end not a good strategy even if it is Carrier.

IMO

Gentlemen, Thanks for all the help and additional information.

According to all the contractors so far there is not an easy way to vent a high efficiency furnace. Is there more differences in these furnaces than just the efficiency savings?

Tigerdunes, I would be very interested in any recommendations.

7497088 ActiveSystems CARRIER PERFORMANCE 17 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ACB748A**31 CNPV*6124AL* 1270 1135 59*P6A080E21** 20 48000 13.00 16.50 1RCU-A-CB All 352 Yes

Add Carrier Edge Thermidistat.

you will need to explain why dealers say you can't go high eff furnace. You have basement/crawlspace? Where is ductwork located? Where is current furnace located?

iIMO

I have asked about the AC you recommended and the following comments were made by my contractor:

"The Performance series a/c's do not communicate with the system. We would need to jump up to the Infinity series to communicate. There is a performance series furnace with a variable speed blower but for what the Infinity system can do I strongly feel that it is not worth it. We will need to jump to an Infinity single stage 16 seer a/c to be totally communicating"

Do you agree with his comments?

What 80% furnace would you recommend if I go with your recommend AC?

On the Furnace, it is located in a finished basement that was completed a few years ago. In order to run new lines would require cutting several holes in our painted ceiling and that is something we would prefer to not have to do unless there is a significant difference in the higher efficiency furnaces. I still don't understand the major differences other than efficiency which will save money in the long run?

Here are the revised quotes with 4-ton AC

Revised Quotes

1A. CARRIER 13 SEER A/C - 80% FURNACE - $6565

58STA090---1--16 - COMFORT SERIES 88,000 BTU SINGLE STAGE FURNACE 80%

24ABB348A00 - 3COMFORT SERIES 4 TON AIR CONDITIONER

CNPVP4221ALA - PERFORMANCE SERIES 3.5 TON CASED EVAPORATORCOIL

TC-PAC01 - COMFORT SERIES PROGRAMMABLE THERMOSTAT

FILTER CABINET & MEDIA FILTER

MANUFACTURE REBATE OF $150.00

2A. CARRIER 15 SEER A/C - 80% FURNACE ARI6385839 - $7705

58CVA090---1--16 - INFINITY SERIES 88,000 BTU 2-STAGE VARIABLE SPEED FURNACE RATED 80%

24ABC648A003 - COMFORT SERIES 4 TON AIR CONDITIONER

CNPVP4821ALA - PERFORMANCE SERIES 4 TON CASED EVAPORATOR COIL

SYSTXCCITW01 - INFINITY TOUCH SCREEN THERMOSTAT

FILTER CABINET & MEDIA FILTER

MANUFACTURE REBATE OF $150.00

3A. CARRIER 15.5 SEER A/C - 80% FURNACE ARI6385574 - $7,950.00

58PHA090---1--16 - PERFORMANCE SERIES 88,000 BTU SINGLE STAGE WITH ECM FAN MOTOR RATED 80%

24ACC648A003 - PERFORMANCE SERIES 4 TON SINGLE STAGE AIR CONDITIONER

CNPVP6124ALA - PERFORMANCE SERIES 5 TON CASED EVAPORATOR COIL

TC-PAC01 - COMFORT SERIES PROGRAMMABLE THERMOSTAT

FILTER CABINET & MEDIA FILTER

4A. CARRIER 16 SEER A/C - 80% FURNACE ARI6406556 - $9465

58CVA090---1--16 - INFINITY SERIES 88,000 BTU 2-STAGE VARIABLE SPEED FURNACE 80%

24ANB748A003 - INFINITY SERIES 4 TON 2-STAGE AIR CONDITIONER

CNPVP4821ALA - PERFORMANCE SERIES 4 TON CASED EVAPORATOR COIL

SYSTXCCITW01 - INFINITY TOUCH SCREEN THERMOSTAT

FILTER CABINET & MEDIA FILTER

MANUFACTURE REBATE OF $700.00

Why is the contractor worried about communicating? The goal is to spec a good system at a reasonable price. He is right that you have to either move up to the Infinity series, or possibly add module interfaces to the Performance equipment to allow it to communicate. That gets to be expensive and probably not worth it.

The high efficiency furnace will save you 15-20% in heating costs. I think that is significant. Do you know how much it currently costs to heat your house?

The difference are the Performance is better built than the Comfort and should last longer, the Infinity adds communication so the thermostat reports problems with your system when they occur.

The rebate makes the Infinity system attractive. I would not get a single stage AC without a load calculation. There is a risk it will be too big.

I asked him about the communicating capability as I had read it offers some really nice features to allow your AC and furnace to communicate with each other and set various parameters based on conditions, etc.

You are saying it probably isn't worth the extra cost which is really out of our budget anyway unless there are significant advantages?

Here is breakdown of our gas charges for the last 3 years

Dec 13, 2013 65.01

Nov 14, 2013 31.2

Oct 15, 2013 32.51

Sep 12, 2013 27.01

Aug 13, 2013, 41.49

Jul 16, 2013 38.6

Jun 13, 2013 82.26

May 09, 2013 91.66

Apr 15, 2013 127.72

Mar 18, 2013 129.72

Feb 15, 2013 151.37

Jan 14, 2013 180.86

Dec 15, 2014 61.62

Nov 14, 2014 34.11

Oct 14, 2014 30.54

Sep 16, 2014 35.53

Aug 14, 2014 30.38

Jul 17, 2014 39.68

Jun 16, 2014 57.32

May 14, 2014 99.15

Apr 15, 2014 177.28

Mar 17, 2014 225.12

Feb 13, 2014 180.86

Jan 14, 2014 149.73

Aug 13, 2015 32.91

Jul 14, 2015 31.61

Jun 12, 2015 33.13

May 14, 2015 57.88

Apr 13, 2015 137.7

Mar 16, 2015 298.73

Feb 17, 2015 193.13

Jan 14, 2015 129.24

Please recommend a furnace with your AC RECOMENDATION that you think will be best for our needs.

Thanks for for all the help!

None of the systems that your dealer quoted were fully communicating with exception of #4. While the system that I gave you is not communicationing, it is a nice system that should give you years of good service. I think it is a mistake not going with a high eff furnace. I stand by my recommendation because it is more mid line and I expect more price conscious. If you want a fully communicating system, then you will have to step up with more bux. That includes Infinity Furnace, Infinity Condenser, and of course Infinity thermostat/controller.Let me know how I can help.

IMO

Ok that sounds good. do you happen to know the part # of the 2-stage high efficiency furnace you recommended? I will ask for a quote on that option.

Does it make sense to save money to go with a single stage AC and 2-stage VS furnace or if I choose this option just go with single stage AC and Furnace? This is assuming I get a load call done and am comfortable with the size.

7497088 ActiveSystems CARRIER PERFORMANCE 17 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ACB748A**31 CNPV*6124AL* 1270 1135 59*P6A080E21** 20 48000 13.00 16.50 1RCU-A-CB All 352 Yes

The model number of the furnace is 59TP6 80K size.

IMO

Ok thanks. I asked him about that furnace and he said "I got a quote on the 58CTW furnace and it only raises the seer to 13.5 so for the cost to do this it is not worth it."

If you will learn to read the AHRI Directory matching number that I provided, you will see the system that I recommended with the furnace and AC condenser has a SEER rating of 16.5. Go back and take a look above and see for yourself. Better yet learn about the AHRI Directory. Your dealer either is totally ignorant or just blowing smoke in your eyes. I am done here. My best suggestion is to dismiss your dealer and look for another who is a straight shooter rather than a bull shooter.

good luck. Looks like you will need it.

IMO

I would call these guys for a quote btw you use a lot of hot water. http://kansascity.craigslist.org/app/5145886727.html

I don't like the fact this HVAC salesman is quoting single stage AC condensers in a 3.5 and 4 ton sizes without doing a load calculation. At least one of them is the wrong size. You should get at least 3 quotes.

Here is how I calculate my annual heating and cooling costs.

For heating:

Find the months you know that you did not use the furnace, add them up and take an average. This represents your average costs of the gas appliances without heating. Multiply by 12 for an annual cost. Subtract this number to the total gas charges for the year. The differnce is approximately the total annual heating costs. This assumes that your monthly gas usage for things other than the furnace is approximately the same. I notice the last two March bills were much higher. Not sure what happened in those months.

For cooling:

The same steps as above except you are selecting first the months that you did not use the AC. Again if your electric use outside of AC jumps in some months then the result will be as accurate.

Do this for the last three years. The last two winters have been very cold in some parts in the country. Also the price of gas has dropped in the past three years. You should really being comparing BTUs and not dollars.